Fluke and Sea Bass Returns

[Billfish715]

Dakota, I have always been awed by your devotion to the issues facing the fluke fishing community and appreciative for all you continue to do to convince the bureaucrats of the need to think outside the box. So, I know you can answer my very elementary question. Do we need the permission of a particular agency to fish for fluke or can we go it alone? What happens if N.J. decides to be non-compliant with the regulations set forth by the various agencies? Will we not be allowed to fish for fluke?

[tautog]

Massive and open civil disobedience is the only true solution.

Originally Posted by Billfish715

Dakota, I have always been awed by your devotion to the issues facing the fluke fishing community and appreciative for all you continue to do to convince the bureaucrats of the need to think outside the box. So, I know you can answer my very elementary question. Do we need the permission of a particular agency to fish for fluke or can we go it alone? What happens if N.J. decides to be non-compliant with the regulations set forth by the various agencies? Will we not be allowed to fish for fluke?

Billfish I'll venture to answer your question but there's others more well-versed than I am with all the provisions of Magnuson Stevens Act "MSA". Dave, "Dales529", being one who's been at it a lot longer than I have and having a much more comprehensive understanding of all the regulations.

That being said, I believe if a state is deemed to be non-compliant, Emergency Measures per MSA kick in. Consider it to be the stick that MSA provides the Federal government to use if states vote to be out of compliance. My recollection when this was discussed in 2018 is it imposes upon the state a mandatory size and possession limit that I believe was something along the lines of two fish at 22" and a significantly shortened season. When I say shortened season, I believe it was only about a month and might be the 31 days that Dave alluded to in his earlier post. I believe MSA may also potentially allow a complete closure of both the recreational and commercial industry within the state and I thought I recalled something stating that closure might not just be for summer flounder but encompass other stocks as well. In other words, you definitely do not want to be non-compliant because the penalties would be so severe.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Billfish I'll venture to answer your question but there's others more well-versed than I am with all the provisions of Magnuson Stevens Act "MSA". Dave, "Dales529", being one who's been at it a lot longer than I have and having a much more comprehensive understanding of all the regulations.

That being said, I believe if a state is deemed to be non-compliant, Emergency Measures per MSA kick in. Consider it to be the stick that MSA provides the Federal government to use if states vote to be out of compliance. My recollection when this was discussed in 2018 is that imposes upon the state a mandatory size and possession limit that I believe was something along the lines of two fish at 22" and a significantly shortened season. When I say shortened season, I believe it was only about a month and might be the 31 days that Dave alluded to in his earlier post. I believe MSA may also potentially allow a complete closure of both the recreational and commercial industry within the state and I thought I recalled something stating that closure might not just be for summer flounder but encompass other stocks as well. In other words, you definitely do not want to be non-compliant because the penalties would be so severe.

If I remember correctly, the last time NJ fought back and decided to be out of compliance also meant that federally licensed commercial and recreational fishing vessels in NJ could have been shut down.

The other wild card in this whole thing is the administrations in place back then was a lot more fishermen friendly. Christie was on board as was the NJDEP. It got escalated to the the Feds and the then Sec of Commerce Wilbur Ross told the ASMFC, figure something out, in other words make some sort of compromise with NJ...

Not sure that would have happened with our current governor or Sec of Commerce. This is likely the reason we're being told pick one of the options, rather then roll the dice and go out of compliance again.

You don't have to like that answer but it is what it is.

[bunker dunker]

we can get to Mars.we can manufacture a vaccine for a flu strain we have never
seen not heard about in 8 months.we have houses that accept verbal commands
but we can't figure out how to regulate fluke or sea bass?????

[Billfish715]

Originally Posted by bunker dunker

but we can't figure out how to regulate fluke or sea bass?????

I can see a need for some regulations but it seems we are overly regulated and worse, OUR interests seem to be ignored. We are all shareholders in this and yet those who have the greatest interest in it have the least effect on the outcome. That is perhaps the biggest insult and what is at the base of all of our gripes.

In all of my many, many years of fishing for fluke, never was there a time when there were no fluke to catch. I can remember a time when fishermen who lived through the Depression and WWII and the Korean Conflict went subsistence fishing. If it had fins, and could fit between two pieces of bread to make a meal, it went into a bag or bucket or cooler and was taken home for lunch or dinner for the family. There were no limits, only those set by the individual fisherman. Sure, there were lots of small fish caught and kept. Sure, the fish never got too big , yet most of the fishing was done along the beaches for fluke. No one ventured too far out off the beach where we know moat of the bigger fish are today.

There were always fluke and enough fluke for people who wanted them for dinner or lunch. And then, came the regulations. So much has happened during that time. Beaches have been "improved" by the Army Corps of Engineers and a noticeable change came about in the fishing techniques and fishing locations of the private and party boats. No one fishes along the beach anymore. There may be a correlation between the replenishment and the change in fishing along the beaches but that's a topic for another discussion.

I've been through many, many years of fishing for fluke. I'm still excited every time I drop a baited line to the bottom while waiting for a fluke to bite. I've been at this for a long time and still, the fluke keep coming. My biggest complaint and what upsets me the most is that a small group of people who apparently have no interest in me, have the audacity to instill in me, their values about how I choose to fish.

[bunker dunker]

we hear everyday now the phase"follow the science",why don't we?????so if
"science" says that 78%{+ or -} of all fluke over 18 inches are female then why would we have a keeper size of 18"??? i have never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed but i can tell you that if if there are no hens there will be no eggs.maybe its just me but if the feds really wanted a solution wouldn't they at
least try something new rather than travel a road that keeps getting worse.

Originally Posted by bunker dunker

We hear everyday the phase "follow the science", why don't we????? So if
"science" says that 78%{+ or -} of all fluke over 18 inches are female then why would we have a keeper size of 18"??? i have never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed but i can tell you that if if there are no hens there will be no eggs. maybe its just me but if the feds really wanted a solution wouldn't they at
least try something new rather than travel a road that keeps getting worse.

Bunker / Billfish,
There's no logic in how this fishery is being managed. Pick your poison of why basic concepts are ignored. MSA, incompetence, alternate agenda, credibility (failure to admit mismanagement of fishery), power, money, greed, arrogance, politics etc. My opinion, a combination of all the above.

Basic problems, other than MSA, of why this fishery continues to fail. Assumption in models, right or wrong, has 25% mortality every year from natural causes. Natural meaning predation (cormorants, dog fish, stripers, sea bass etc.) and sickness. In addition, discard mortality rates are assumed at approximately 2% annually of the total biomass or slightly over 30% of landings. Combined, natural and discard mortality run at about 28% of the biomass per year. A key reason in my opinion why this methodology for managing the fishery will never work. Almost 90% of landings in today's fishery consists of age classes 3-yrs. and above. For comparison sake, in the 80’s and 90’s those age groups made up less than 15% of yearly landings. We're harvesting the wrong age classes today, all sexually mature fish and a proportionately higher percentage female. Recreational size minimums are at the center of that change in the fishery both recreationally and commercially. It's interesting to note that the increased size fish harvested commercially bears a direct relationship to the increase in size minimums over the years to the recreational angling community. In other words the fish that the recreational community are being forced to release are subsequently being harvested by commercial operators for their higher market value. Increased size minimums to the recreational sector has been a very ingenious means of fisheries management removing access to a significant portion of the biomass from the recreational sector for the benefit of the commercial sector resulting in exclusive access for that sector to all fish in the biomass ranging between 14" to 18" - 19". Recruitment has declined over the last 15 years to historical and unprecedented lows and scientists scratch their heads and wonder why.

Do the math. Assume this year’s recruitment class is 100 fish. First year we lose 28% to mortality or 28 fish. Second year starts with 72 fish, lose another 28% or 20 fish bringing that age class to 52 fish remaining after 2 years. Third year we lose another 28% or 15 fish bringing the population to 37 fish after 3 years. We essentially lose around 63% of every recruitment class by age 3 before those fish begin to be harvested. What other fishery is managed this way AND allows commercial harvest during the spawn when recruitment has literally imploded over the last two decades with no pre-emptive efforts to address that decline. Not only are there trillions of eggs destroyed in that process every year but Marine fisheries has absolutely no sense on what impact commercial harvest is having on the overall efficacy of the spawn. It's unconscionable management at both the Federal and State level hang their hats on MSA legislation and compliance yet insist on regulations that have absolutely destroyed the spawning biomass, devastated recruitment levels, shifted substantial access rights between sectors and allow unabated netting in September and October providing no protection whatsoever to the spawn. That's the leadership mentality we've been governed by far too long.

We went from harvest the young and protect the breeders to let the younger age classes succumb to natural and discard mortality while harvesting almost exclusively the mega breeders. Doesn’t paint a pretty picture. I’m concerned about the future of this fishery. Almost every year this past decade, annual recruitment fell short of natural and fishing mortality meaning there were more fish removed from the biomass than additions. Under those circumstances, it's a statistical impossibility for the fishery to recover and we can thank current regulations for that after 25 years of sacrifice. Haven't read where MSA or the subsequent reauthorization mentions anything about continuing with failed management practices to the detriment of the fishery. I wouldn't get too up in arms or excited about Option 1 or 2, in the big picture they don't really matter. We're squabbling over crumbs.

Fisheries management would rather ignore the facts and keep their heads in the sand as opposed to acknowledging and rectifying their poor decisions. Nothing will change and we'll be having these same discussions every year until a completely different methodology is employed managing this stock.

[bunker dunker]

look i have total respect for those on this site that are doing all the work trying to change this on going disaster but lets call a rock a rock. if the feds really
wanted to help us they would.the numbers will never get better until they start to try different things.common sense would say lets lower the size limit 15 inches so maybe we are not killing as many females which would mean a better
spawning number.this has been going on way to long.think about all the has
happened in the last 20 years as far as technology and we can't manage fish
limits.look i am not telling anyone to give up or stop but at 60 years old i for one
am not wasting another minute on it.

BD I completely agree. If Marine fisheries, the Commission and Council haven't changed their approach to this fishery in 25 years, it's foolhearted to think they will going forward. The winter flounder stock was destroyed years ago by commercial dragging, what's left for all practical purposes is exclusively a commercial fishery. That's where Summer Flounder is headed. Commercial practices of selectively harvesting larger age classes, predominantly females, killing smaller fish in the process and wreaking havoc on the spawn has caught up with this fishery. And the regulations not only support that behavior, they promote it.

To give an idea of how significant discard mortality is in the commercial trawling practice, there's years on observed trawls dead discard mortalty was reported in excess of 100% of landings with a high of 140% one year. Translated they're killing more tonnage then what's being brought back to the docks and to make matters worse the fish they're killing are the fish the recreational sector are being forced to release. Every year the discard amounts reported on vessel trip reports have been significantly lower than amounts reported by the observers on board which are unconscionably the numbers used by Fisheries Management quantifying commercial catch. Someone can help me understand what the point is of having observers on board if the data they collect is ignored.

Honor system which obviously is under reporting the carnage taking place offshore. The graph illustrating this in the 57th stock assessment was so atrocious, the federal government conveniently removed the chart in the 66th stock assessment for obvious reasons.

Secretary of Commerce, Marine Fisheries, and leadership or lack of on the Commission and Council have failed this fishery and failed the recreational sector and the businesses, party boat / for hire operators and anglers dependent on it who have shouldered the brunt of the sacrifices made over the last 25 years. So in turn, we can lose 6 days in May but have September 26th 27th and 28th to fish when the majority of the biomass will be offshore being pounded by draggers during their annual spawn.