Striper management Addendum VI

[dales529]

Originally Posted by reason162

Just know that Omega's brazen thumb nosing at regulators can be traced back to our own NJ fluke grab of 2017.

If you recall, NJ forced the issue with ASMFC by going out of compliance on fluke quotas, betting on Wilber Ross to break precedence and rule in their favor. Well, the various industry groups got what they wanted: Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction.

With bunker you can bet that Omega Protein took that as a green light to defy any regulations set forth. Any state looking to undo conservation measures has a friend in this administration. They will side with big business every time.

And anyone bemoaning the bunker rape in VA can look back and reflect on their position during the 2017 fluke season, the groups they supported, the tactics they endorsed.

Roger, While I agree with 99.9% of your posts I dont on the above. It was hardly a Fluke "Grab" . NJ did technically go out of compliance but we met ASMFC conservation equivalency by reducing the season and implementing educational programs on release mortality. NJ met the ASMFC quota and the only gain was state wide conservation equivalency vs regional which separated NJ from NY and CT. As we have completely unique fisheries that was a good thing for NJ while adhering to ASMFC guidelines. if you remember the "enough is enough" mantra which most fishermen supported NJ caved other than the regional issue and adhered to the guidelines.

Originally Posted by reason162

Just know that Omega's brazen thumb nosing at regulators can be traced back to our own NJ fluke grab of 2017.

If you recall, NJ forced the issue with ASMFC by going out of compliance on fluke quotas, betting on Wilber Ross to break precedence and rule in their favor. Well, the various industry groups got what they wanted: Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction.

With bunker you can bet that Omega Protein took that as a green light to defy any regulations set forth. Any state looking to undo conservation measures has a friend in this administration. They will side with big business every time.

And anyone bemoaning the bunker rape in VA can look back and reflect on their position during the 2017 fluke season, the groups they supported, the tactics they endorsed.

You have a very distorted view of what's happening. What happened in 2017 had absolutely nothing to do with undoing conservation measures set by ASMFC. NJ was faced with a 34% reduction in quota and going from a 5 possession limit at 18" in 2016 to 3 at 19" in 2017 all because the regulations implemented by ASMFC have caused a 15-year decline in the fishery since 2004. And your position is that constitutes a fluke grab. Combined landings (recreational and commercial) for the five years 2013 through 2017 in metric tons 8,806, 7,364, 5,366. 6,005 ,4,565. That's an almost 50% decrease in landings over 5 years, some grab. "Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction" You must be &^$%#$! kidding? NJ ended up with 3 fish at 18" in 2017, a significant cut because the authoritative body tasked with managing the fluke fishery is mismanaging it. NY and Ct went from 5 at 18" to 3 at 19" and Rhode Island went from 8 at 18" to 4 at 19". Seems to me ASMFC still has a lot of teeth when they decide to use them.

Cooke Inc acquired Omega Protein in 2018 for approximately $500 million. Almost 80% of the annual menhaden quota is allocated to Virginia. How much money do you suppose changes hands between Cooke Inc and Va. politicians to bend the rules in their favor every year to justify that acquisition and rape the resource in the process. This has zero to do with conservation, it's about power, money and a corrupt process from top to bottom. What's happening with bunker and Cooke is indicative of the problem every fishery is faced with today, it's being sold to the highest bidder.

[Rocky]

Originally Posted by dakota560

You have a very distorted view of what's happening. What happened in 2017 had absolutely nothing to do with undoing conservation measures set by ASMFC. NJ was faced with a 34% reduction in quota and going from a 5 possession limit at 18" in 2016 to 3 at 19" in 2017 all because the regulations implemented by ASMFC have caused a 15-year decline in the fishery since 2004. And your position is that constitutes a fluke grab. Combined landings (recreational and commercial) for the five years 2013 through 2017 in metric tons 8,806, 7,364, 5,366. 6,005 ,4,565. That's an almost 50% decrease in landings over 5 years, some grab. "Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction" You must be &^$%#$! kidding? NJ ended up with 3 fish at 18" in 2017, a significant cut because the authoritative body tasked with managing the fluke fishery is mismanaging it. NY and Ct went from 5 at 18" to 3 at 19" and Rhode Island went from 8 at 18" to 4 at 19". Seems to me ASMFC still has a lot of teeth when they decide to use them.

Cooke Inc acquired Omega Protein in 2018 for approximately $500 million. Almost 80% of the annual menhaden quota is allocated to Virginia. How much money do you suppose changes hands between Cooke Inc and Va. politicians to bend the rules in their favor every year to justify that acquisition and rape the resource in the process. This has zero to do with conservation, it's about power, money and a corrupt process from top to bottom. What's happening with bunker and Cooke is indicative of the problem every fishery is faced with today, it's being sold to the highest bidder.

If I was your son I don't think it would be a good idea to ask you to borrow the car right now.

[reason162]

Originally Posted by dales529

NJ did technically go out of compliance but we met ASMFC conservation equivalency by reducing the season and implementing educational programs on release mortality.

Dale, if NJ met conservation equivalency ASMFC would've approved the state-backed regs for 2017; it did not, therefore the proposed "equivalency" was rejected. The quota filled was after the fact...I remember it ended up being one of the worst inshore fluke seasons in memory, and a bite materialized in keyport of all places the very week NJ shut down (which was part of the altered season, truncating the last 2 weeks for the smaller size limit).

The irony was the season ended up being so bad that it would've made little difference had NJ went along with the ASMFC set of regs. In fact the NY boats had no issues filling up limits on the NJ side of RB after the NJ season closed...

What was accomplished was to put ASMFC in a no win position of declaring NJ out of compliance, which it was, while knowing that Wilber Ross will likely side with NJ, setting up an untenable precedence. Certainly it couldn't have turned a blind eye to NJ going out of compliance either.

You can draw a direct line between the Ross decision to back NJ at the expense of ASMFC authority in 2017 to Omega's bunker grab this year. It showed how powerless ASMFC was in the face of a business-friendly government in Washington.

This argument was made during the 2017 meetings, it was spelled out on various forums and blog posts, and anyone could've followed the thread to its logical conclusion. No one who paid any attention 2 years ago should be surprised at what Omega got away with in 2019.

[reason162]

Originally Posted by dakota560

NY and Ct went from 5 at 18" to 3 at 19" and Rhode Island went from 8 at 18" to 4 at 19". Seems to me ASMFC still has a lot of teeth when they decide to use them.

ASMFC can set whatever regulations they want, with the NJ fluke and now Omega bunker precedence states can go out of compliance with no fear of consequences, as long as the current admin controls the commerce department.

That's the teeth pulling I was referring to. NY/CT did not go out of compliance (or even consider it afaik) partly bc they understood the implications of such myopic political maneuvering.

How much money do you suppose changes hands between Cooke Inc and Va. politicians to bend the rules in their favor every year to justify that acquisition and rape the resource in the process. This has zero to do with conservation, it's about power, money and a corrupt process from top to bottom.

I don't quite get the non sequitur here...how is corruption in the context of Cooke Inc controlling Va politicians nothing to do with conservation?

In an ideal world, a federal agency should have the power to exorcise that kind of cancerous process at the state level. That agency would be on the side of conservation vs. a reduction company and their bought politicians.

ASMFC is certainly not that agency, due in no small part to NJ's kneecapping in 2017. Over a lousy inch that hardly mattered at the end of the season.

Originally Posted by reason162

ASMFC can set whatever regulations they want, with the NJ fluke and now Omega bunker precedence states can go out of compliance with no fear of consequences, as long as the current admin controls the commerce department.

That's the teeth pulling I was referring to. NY/CT did not go out of compliance (or even consider it afaik) partly bc they understood the implications of such myopic political maneuvering.



I don't quite get the non sequitur here...how is corruption in the context of Cooke Inc controlling Va politicians nothing to do with conservation?

In an ideal world, a federal agency should have the power to exorcise that kind of cancerous process at the state level. That agency would be on the side of conservation vs. a reduction company and their bought politicians.

ASMFC is certainly not that agency, due in no small part to NJ's kneecapping in 2017. Over a lousy inch that hardly mattered at the end of the season.

I'll try to be clearer. Your statement "You can draw a direct line between the Ross decision to back NJ at the expense of ASMFC authority in 2017 to Omega's bunker grab this year. It showed how powerless ASMFC was in the face of a business-friendly government in Washington." COMPLETE BS! One has nothing to do with the other but you're pro ASMFC and "science can do no wrong mentality" prevents you from seeing the forest through the trees.

The proposed bay cap of 51,000 metric tons by ASMFC was a recommendation not a mandate, but Virginia refused to codify it into law because the quotas were raised for all other states and lowered for Virginia. So Virginia instead ignored ASMFC's recommendation and adopted a quota of 87,216 metric tons. The ASMFC did not find Virginia out of compliance because ASMFC's position was the species is not over-fished and over-fishing is not occurring, and NOAA (the business friendly administration you're referring to) advised the ASMFC that there is no precedent for an out-of-compliance finding in a situation where the species is not overfished and over-fishing is not occurring. Virginia and ASMFC, not Washington, caused this to happen and has absolutely nothing to do with NJ's position regarding summer flounder in 2017 or Washington so trying to relate the two to push your liberal pro science can do no wrong personal agenda is misguided. This is corporate greed, someone getting their pockets lined in Virginia and ASMFC allowing it to happen period. Precisely why efforts are in motion to move menhaden management out of the Va Legislature and into VMRC's (Virginia Marine Resource Fishing) control this coming spring as a 1st step in sending the Canadian firm Omega Protein beyond the 3 mile line as every other eastern coast state has done.

What we do agree on is something needs to be done to stop this from happening. As I've repeatedly said with summer flounder, the health of the fishery needs to come first before allocations of the resource to interested parties and then those allocations can't be at the expense of the fishery or the other parties dependent on the resource, a concept fishery management in my opinion fails to comprehend. Summer flounder stock on a 15-yr decline and commercial interests receive a 50% increase in quota! I'm sure ASMFC has a reason why that decision was made but a fishery which has declined in biomass by almost 40% over the last 15 years translating to a 50% increase in quota for one party who in my opinion is causing most of the damage is unconscionable. You can file that in your science can do no wrong folder.

[reason162]

Originally Posted by dakota560

The ASMFC did not find Virginia out of compliance because ASMFC's position was the species is not over-fished and over-fishing is not occurring

This is how it works:

The ASMFC has no enforcement capacity, they can only make rulings on compliance. The Dept of Commerce is the federal enforcement agency in this case, with the power to declare moratoriums on state fisheries deemed out of compliance by the ASMFC.

If ASMFC finds Virginia out of compliance on bunker, the Commerce Dept can shut down the fishing in that state.

But what happened last time ASMFC found a state out of compliance? That's right: Commerce Dept head Wilbur Ross sided with the state (NJ) and declined to shut down the fluke season. This was the first time a commerce dept secretary has failed to heed ASMFC's recommendation for a moratorium due to a state being out of compliance.

You don't think that has any bearing on ASMFC's decision to NOT find Virginia out of compliance this time around? Same commerce dept at the helm, same admin in Washington. It doesn't take a political genius to figure out the outcome would've been exactly the same, further weakening w/e authority the ASMFC had.

The bay cap vs state cap narrative was a feeble attempt by the ASMFC to mitigate political fallout of doing nothing to penalize Virginia. Anyone with half a brain can see through this transparent and desperate attempt at self preservation.

I have little interest in the details of your hypothesis re fluke...that's not for this discussion. Just pointing out exactly how the political calculations played out re ASMFC vs states vs commerce department under this government. When NJ pursued its fluke grab of 2017, this exact scenario should've been painfully obvious. And I believe it was, but no one involved at the time gave one flying fk about the consequences.

[dales529]

Originally Posted by reason162

This is how it works:

The ASMFC has no enforcement capacity, they can only make rulings on compliance. The Dept of Commerce is the federal enforcement agency in this case, with the power to declare moratoriums on state fisheries deemed out of compliance by the ASMFC.

If ASMFC finds Virginia out of compliance on bunker, the Commerce Dept can shut down the fishing in that state.

But what happened last time ASMFC found a state out of compliance? That's right: Commerce Dept head Wilbur Ross sided with the state (NJ) and declined to shut down the fluke season. This was the first time a commerce dept secretary has failed to heed ASMFC's recommendation for a moratorium due to a state being out of compliance.

You don't think that has any bearing on ASMFC's decision to NOT find Virginia out of compliance this time around? Same commerce dept at the helm, same admin in Washington. It doesn't take a political genius to figure out the outcome would've been exactly the same, further weakening w/e authority the ASMFC had.

The bay cap vs state cap narrative was a feeble attempt by the ASMFC to mitigate political fallout of doing nothing to penalize Virginia. Anyone with half a brain can see through this transparent and desperate attempt at self preservation.

I have little interest in the details of your hypothesis re fluke...that's not for this discussion. Just pointing out exactly how the political calculations played out re ASMFC vs states vs commerce department under this government. When NJ pursued its fluke grab of 2017, this exact scenario should've been painfully obvious. And I believe it was, but no one involved at the time gave one flying fk about the consequences.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. What really happened is this:
When NJ threatened to and did technically go out of compliance ASMFC scheduled a NJ Out of compliance hearing. They then explained to NJDEP that if NJ was found out of compliance there were 2 options. One being Nj would have to go default measures which in 2017 were 2 fish at 19" and a July to Aug season . The second option was a fluke closure for NJ in federal waters including both recreational and commercial, along with either revoking and /or not renewing federal permits for PB and charter boats. State waters would be under the default measures.

NJ DEP upon hearing this came up with an option as previously stated to reduce the season but maintain a 3 fish @18" bag and institute the educational release mortality program. NJDEP submitted this plan to ASMFC the day before the out of compliance hearing for review. ASMFC came back stating the option met state wide conservation equivalency.

At the council meeting where the out of compliance hearing was scheduled, NJDEP made a motion to the council for this option. Motion was seconded and then a roll call vote was taken where the option was approved by the council. By doing that the hearing for NJ out of compliance was removed from the agenda and NJ was reinstated as in compliance.

At that point it never got to Wilbur Ross as there was no out of compliance decision to be made.

A compromise yes but in the end NJ caved to ASMFC as they did still have plenty of "teeth" in the game. And certainly no fluke grab as we lost other than being de- regionalized.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Originally Posted by reason162

This is how it works:Just pointing out exactly how the political calculations played out re ASMFC vs states vs commerce department under this government. When NJ pursued its fluke grab of 2017, this exact scenario should've been painfully obvious. And I believe it was, but no one involved at the time gave one flying fk about the consequences.

And what exactly were the consequences. I see 2 in this example

1) NJ fishermen were allowed to keep 18 instead of 19 inch Fluke which allowed them to fill their limit with more male fish and not have to fill it with all female breeders.

2) We set a precedent that the powers to be in the ASMFC are not the end all be all if John Q. Public makes some noise and has a more sensible plan then they’ve recommended.

A few other observations not pointed at reason.

1) Why is it that many people on this site don’t have an issue with people keeping a big Fluke or SeaBass but when it comes to Stripers it’s a lightening rod?

2) If you’re that bent on protecting Stripers and it’s assumed that 9% die as a result of catch and release why even fish for them at all??

[reason162]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

And what exactly were the consequences. I see 2 in this example

1) NJ fishermen were allowed to keep 18 instead of 19 inch Fluke which allowed them to fill their limit with more male fish and not have to fill it with all female breeders.

2) We set a precedent that the powers to be in the ASMFC are not the end all be all if John Q. Public makes some noise and has a more sensible plan then they’ve recommended.

Gerry, I have no comment re point #1 for this discussion, and point #2 is at least honest, ie you applaud the new paradigm of lawlessness among states to challenge ASMFC quotas. That's at least a consistent and logical position.

My issue is with someone who 1) full throatedly supported the push to go out of compliance in 2017, and 2) now bemoan the bunker situation in Va. As if what NJ did 2 years ago has nothing to do with the powerlessness of ASMFC in reigning in corporate greed in Va today.

That is all.