Fluke Regs this year

[Billfish715]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

This will never work... Although the commercials have dates when they can start fishing, their season ends not on a date, it's when what they've weighed in meets their quota. So say an example they meet their quota on 8/1... Now the the party and charter boat guys have to stop fishing on 8/1 because the commercial quota is filled??

That and what are you going to do to figure out what the party and charter boats catch to add to what the commercials catch? Are you going to force them to weigh their catch when they come back in each day like the commercials have to??

Unless I'm missing something here, your suggestion makes no sense at all!!

Don't be too quick to dismiss the idea. There are six commercial "seasons" of approximately two month each. Seldom has a season been closed so prematurely as to severely affect the number of days on the water. Once the season is closed, there is always the provision for by-catch and then the anticipated opening for the next season which is usually a short time afterwards.

Ask the "for hire" captains if they would like to fish throughout the year for fluke. Ask if they would mind reporting their catches online or if their customers would like to take home some smaller fluke. Other states have regulations that require their commercial fishermen to report their catches. The striiped bass fishery in the states south of us is regulated to include hook and line fishermen who are considered commercial fishermen.

It seems to me that the people who are being hurt the most in all of the recreational regulatory management plans are the party and charter boat captains. They have more skin in the game than those of us who fish only a few days or less per week on our own boats. Their needs should be considered more urgently than the rest of us. They should be in a different category. Maybe they should be able to share the seasonal allotments differently than they do now. Their total catch affects our total catch quotas and none of our combined quotas affects the commercial draggers limits.

Give the small charter businessmen a better shot at making a living. Think outside the box. Don't be too quick to say that it doesn't make sense. True, it does have to be "fleshed out" but they stand the most to lose by maintaining the status quo. In fact, they are already losing. When you think about it, the fact that the party boats and small charters are lumped in with the rest of the recreational fishermen means that the "recs" are actually helping to over fish our seasonal quotas and visa versa. Perhaps it's time for the party and charter boats to have their own seasons and limits.

Consider it. A captain whose livelihood depends on fishing and catching should be given a voice and it should be heard. My idea might be a bit radical to some but I haven't heard it discussed before. I think it's an option that has some merit.

[Capt Sal]

Shorter seasons and lower limits make it hard to make a living with any for hire boat.Lot of pressure on fluke and stripers with the ridiculous limits on winter flounder and weakfish.This battle has been going on for years and millions of dollars spent.Some good news would be welcome.

[Capt John]

Originally Posted by Billfish715

Don't be too quick to dismiss the idea. There are six commercial "seasons" of approximately two month each. Seldom has a season been closed so prematurely as to severely affect the number of days on the water. Once the season is closed, there is always the provision for by-catch and then the anticipated opening for the next season which is usually a short time afterwards.

Ask the "for hire" captains if they would like to fish throughout the year for fluke. Ask if they would mind reporting their catches online or if their customers would like to take home some smaller fluke. Other states have regulations that require their commercial fishermen to report their catches. The striiped bass fishery in the states south of us is regulated to include hook and line fishermen who are considered commercial fishermen.

It seems to me that the people who are being hurt the most in all of the recreational regulatory management plans are the party and charter boat captains. They have more skin in the game than those of us who fish only a few days or less per week on our own boats. Their needs should be considered more urgently than the rest of us. They should be in a different category. Maybe they should be able to share the seasonal allotments differently than they do now. Their total catch affects our total catch quotas and none of our combined quotas affects the commercial draggers limits.

Give the small charter businessmen a better shot at making a living. Think outside the box. Don't be too quick to say that it doesn't make sense. True, it does have to be "fleshed out" but they stand the most to lose by maintaining the status quo. In fact, they are already losing. When you think about it, the fact that the party boats and small charters are lumped in with the rest of the recreational fishermen means that the "recs" are actually helping to over fish our seasonal quotas and visa versa. Perhaps it's time for the party and charter boats to have their own seasons and limits.

Consider it. A captain whose livelihood depends on fishing and catching should be given a voice and it should be heard. My idea might be a bit radical to some but I haven't heard it discussed before. I think it's an option that has some merit.

Bravo Billie....someone thinking outside the box to "rescue" the poor and struggling for-hire captain's. How many more captain's have to go out of business to prove the system is broken? It's about time someone thought about "leveling" the playing field. It's an idea I talked about for a long time, only to fall on deaf ears.....sad. Thanks for bringing up the topic and putting forth a viable solution to a long standing problem.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the commercial's....they work very, very hard for what they do, BUT so does the for-hire fleet. Shouldn't they be afforded the same rights? The for-hire guys catch fish for a living...don't they?

You want to save the Jersey shore especially after Sandy.....save the party and charter fleet and ALL the businesses associated with fishing in New Jersey..$$$$$$$$. Thanks again Bill...spot on.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Originally Posted by Billfish715

Don't be too quick to dismiss the idea. There are six commercial "seasons" of approximately two month each. Seldom has a season been closed so prematurely as to severely affect the number of days on the water. Once the season is closed, there is always the provision for by-catch and then the anticipated opening for the next season which is usually a short time afterwards.

Ask the "for hire" captains if they would like to fish throughout the year for fluke. Ask if they would mind reporting their catches online or if their customers would like to take home some smaller fluke. Other states have regulations that require their commercial fishermen to report their catches. The striiped bass fishery in the states south of us is regulated to include hook and line fishermen who are considered commercial fishermen.

It seems to me that the people who are being hurt the most in all of the recreational regulatory management plans are the party and charter boat captains. They have more skin in the game than those of us who fish only a few days or less per week on our own boats. Their needs should be considered more urgently than the rest of us. They should be in a different category. Maybe they should be able to share the seasonal allotments differently than they do now. Their total catch affects our total catch quotas and none of our combined quotas affects the commercial draggers limits.

Give the small charter businessmen a better shot at making a living. Think outside the box. Don't be too quick to say that it doesn't make sense. True, it does have to be "fleshed out" but they stand the most to lose by maintaining the status quo. In fact, they are already losing. When you think about it, the fact that the party boats and small charters are lumped in with the rest of the recreational fishermen means that the "recs" are actually helping to over fish our seasonal quotas and visa versa. Perhaps it's time for the party and charter boats to have their own seasons and limits.

Consider it. A captain whose livelihood depends on fishing and catching should be given a voice and it should be heard. My idea might be a bit radical to some but I haven't heard it discussed before. I think it's an option that has some merit.

Charter and Party Boat Captains, feel free to chime in here and keep me honest..

Bag and size limits aside, I think what Charter and Party boats are looking for is as many days on the water with something to fish for and a season that has specific dates so they can plan their schedules and or book charters... Further, those days on the water need to line up with the times of year their patrons want to fish.... The same is not true of commercials because they don't care about days on the water or what time of year they're allowed to fish. They'll fish any time of year and want to fill their quotas in as few days as possible..

If that's the case, by combing Party and Charter boat businesses with Commercials you have 2 parties with a totally different set of needs... Can you see that Fisheries Management meeting when they ask for public comment feedback about seasons, bag and size limits?

Party and Charter boat businesses need to be aligned with a group with similar needs as them so they have a better chance of having their needs met. IMO they line up better with Recreational then they do with Commercials.

[Joey Dah Fish]

Though many of these ideas are very well thought out I believe it’s highly inappropriate. The focus should be on the government on how regulate the fishery. Their science etc. only when we start properly collecting data and securing proper proven science will any of be able to make a proper assessment on what we think is a good idea. Though discussions are healthy I think it’s like pissing in to a fan.

Originally Posted by Joey Dah Fish

Though many of these ideas are very well thought out I believe it’s highly inappropriate. The focus should be on the government on how regulate the fishery. Their science etc. only when we start properly collecting data and securing proper proven science will any of be able to make a proper assessment on what we think is a good idea. Though discussions are healthy I think it’s like pissing in to a fan.

Joe I have a lot of respect for you, Gerry, Dave and a lot of people on this site and others I've been fortunate to meet trying to help our cause. I thank associations like RFA and SSFFF for their time and effort representing us in efforts to save this fishery for us and generations to come. I believe in the saying "Actions talk, bullshit walks". Not sure you meant to say the ideas on this thread are highly inappropriate, at least I hope that's not what you intended. They may prove fruitless and ultimately action is required for change, but inappropriate means something completely different. Great part of the site is exchange of information, if that's not appropriate I've wasted a lot of my personal time with countless research and posts the last three years.

You're correct focus should and has to be on government, NMFS, ASMFC, MAFMC and any other regulatory body ultimately making policy decisions. "When we start collecting proper data and using proven science", in my opinion waiting for that to happen is the equivalent of waiting for the Mets to win another World Series, it's never going to happen and if the collection methods changed someone whose position it doesn't support would end up questioning it anyway. Precise reason I used their data from their science for my analysis and the articles published in Fisherman Magazine and RFA Making Waves, it's takes away NMFS's and ASMFC's ability to question or dispute it.

There is NO DOUBT in my personal opinion what happened here. As complex as fisheries management can be, in the case of summer flounder it's obvious what's caused a decline in SSB. And since SSB and MSA thresh holds and provisions drive all decisions, question is how do we get commercial operators, recreational anglers, party and charter captains, the individual states that make up the Mid-Atlantic Fishery and fisheries management in general on the same page. Personally I don't think we need to do anything with data collection. The data whether you believe in it or not is not going to change yet the trends it portraits in my opinion make perfect sense. I know that's a bit of a contradiction but we're stuck with the data so bear with me while I connect the dots.

Some more research. Check the first graph which is from the 41st SAW (Stock Assessment Workshop). Recruitment (egg production) is in (000's) and SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) is in metric tons. Look at the relationship of recruitment to the biomass in '83 (almost 5:1), the trend from '83 to '04 and the relationship in years '03 and '04 when it drops below 1:1 for the first time ever. That trend continued it's decline over the ensuing years, drastically dropping between 2010 thru 2015 (last years data provided for in Addendum XXVlll) right after size limits spiked in 2008. Since fluke become sexually mature at the age of three, that's exactly the relationship I'd expect between recruitment and size limit increases between '08 and '10. In '15, the ratio dropped to a low of .5:1 from 5:1 in '83, so in 32-years that's a relative decline of ~90%! Compare that to the next two attachments and pay close attention to the illustration of changes in size and possession limits. The relationship of egg production to SSB started it's tumultuous decline in 2002 when limits were increased from 15.5" for recreational anglers while commercial operators maintained a 14" size limit even with substantially lower possession limits and catch quotas in place today compared to years past. Why, gender composition of the biomass with more and larger breeders being harvested was altered and egg production has been decimated ever since.

Why is that, look at charts four and five regarding overall and commercial catch by age of fish. Source of these charts is from the 57th SAW. In the 80's and 90's, younger fish were being harvested because of the size regulations, look at the shift in size starting around '02 when size limits increased exponentially. In '02, SSB hit it's high water mark of ~50,000 metric tons and has since been on a steady and continuous decline because older, larger female fluke are being harvested. The data is right there for anyone to see but it's being ignored because of MSA. Rutgers "Length and Sex" couldn't support these facts more which makes it more disturbing it failed being incorporated into this latest Peer Review. That alone seals the fate of this fishery for conceivably the next 5-years unless something changes. We're too far down the rabbit hole. I found an article which I have to relocate stating in the mid 80's, ~75% of the annual harvest was made up of fish measuring in the 14" range. Today, conservatively 90% of the entire harvest is made up of fish over 18", almost entirely consisting of female breeders with significantly greater egg production capacity. That's all anyone needs to know about the "State of the Union" regarding this fishery.

The last chart attached I was only able to find for the years '79 thru '85 but I'll find more current information eventually or maybe we can get some input from someone on the site with commercial experience. Look at the last column which has inflation adjusted wholesale prices for small, medium, large and jumbo fluke in '85. I assume these are wholesale prices and bear in mind they're from 33 years ago. Demand for fluke and increase in sushi demand in particular I can only assume has increased the disparity in these prices. Jumbo - $1.27 lb, large - $1.14, medium - $.93 and small - $.61. There's a 100% difference between small and jumbo which is precisely the reason I believe significant amounts of hygrading occurs at sea when you can increase your overall catch value by 100% retaining larger females and discarding smaller fish regardless of mesh sizes. In today's market with today's demand, who knows what that price differential might be.

We don't have to reinvent the wheel here. We already experienced a period, 1989 thru 2002, when SSB the driving force behind basically every regulatory decision, increased from ~7,000 metric tons to ~50,000 metric tons. Possession limits were 8 for the most part with size limits ranging between 14" to 15.5". Average catch quotas were much higher than today, recruitment was much higher than it is today and SSB hit record levels. Why NMFS and ASMFC wouldn't consider re-instating those tried and tested regulations is absolutely beyond logic and comprehension. If we kept them in place and recruitment stayed healthy, commercials would be happier, recreational anglers would be happier, party and charter captains would be happier, catch quotas could be much greater and SSB would probably be at 200,000 metric tons if the trend trajectory it was on continued. MSA thresh-hold SSB for the fishery to be considered rebuilt is ~62,000 metric tons so MSA would no longer present an obstacle.

I'll work with any council, commercial leadership, recreational leadership, scientists or government affiliation in a unified manner to help save this fishery but government has to be willing to listen otherwise Joe as you so eloquently put it, "We're just pissing in a fan".

[Down Deep Sportfishing]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

Charter and Party Boat Captains, feel free to chime in here and keep me honest..

Bag and size limits aside, I think what Charter and Party boats are looking for is as many days on the water with something to fish for and a season that has specific dates so they can plan their schedules and or book charters... Further, those days on the water need to line up with the times of year their patrons want to fish.... The same is not true of commercials because they don't care about days on the water or what time of year they're allowed to fish. They'll fish any time of year and want to fill their quotas in as few days as possible..

If that's the case, by combing Party and Charter boat businesses with Commercials you have 2 parties with a totally different set of needs... Can you see that Fisheries Management meeting when they ask for public comment feedback about seasons, bag and size limits?

Party and Charter boat businesses need to be aligned with a group with similar needs as them so they have a better chance of having their needs met. IMO they line up better with Recreational then they do with Commercials.

Sure Gerry, all “fisherman” would agree to as many days on the water for all different species. True “fisherman” are a dying breed. We submit catch reports daily for everything that is brought aboard, regardless of size or specie. Forces in higher places have a stranglehold on recreational fishing. Couple that with days lost to weather, cancellations and unforeseen circumstances there are days you never get back. Seasons aren’t extended 40 days if 40 days are lost to weather. If you’re in this game for the money you need your head examined. Lastly, cut the cake anyway you like,

ROD AND REEL WILL NEVER HARM AN OCEAN FISHERY”, period, end of story.

[Billfish715]

Gerry, I'm not promoting a program that cuts into the commercial limits. I'm first of all just wondering how the NMFS comes up with it's recreational catch totals. On what scientific evidence do they base their results? Except for some dockside interviews, has anyone given evidence of their catch totals to the NMFS or any state agency?

Yes, it would be difficult to set up separate regulations for the party boats and the recreational private boaters and shoreline fishermen, but not impossible. Would there be gripes? Of course, just because people don't take well to anything that might appear to be unfair to them. Who, though, would begrudge a private charter or party boat captain an opportunity to make money by extending their season or limits? Not me!

Did the private boaters catch more fluke over the last few years than the party boats? If they did, and that's the reason our seasonal quotas and lengths have been compromised, then that should be shared. If it's the other way around, then the private boaters will be pointing fingers in the other direction and that should b shared as well. Once the culprits are discovered they should be willing to forgo some of their season or catch limits to the other group just to make it fair.


So, here is a topic for another thread........Who caught more fluke last season.....the party boats and "for hire" captains, or the private boaters?

[Gerry Zagorski]

The feds use MRIP to estimate recreational landings


https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/natio...mation-program

[Billfish715]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

The feds use MRIP to estimate recreational landings


https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/natio...mation-program

So, who do you know, or how many fishermen do you know who were surveyed? The key word throughout the NOAA charts and explanations is " estimated". So, the fate of the summer flounder rests on a part-time survey that is randomly administered to a very small sampling of anglers. It's results are then used as part of a mathematical formula which then produces an estimated result. To me, the only science in the matter is that someone uses math. As we know, if one variable changes in the formula, the results change as well.

The NOAA report indicates the stocks to be restored but seems to insinuate that they want it to be restored even more. The scientifically inspired decisions appear on the computer screens of only a few people. Once the numbers start crunching, the system gains momentum and strength. Once it gets going, it won't be sidelined. A conclusion is ultimately reached and the rubber stamps get inked and await the opportunity to be put to paper. The stage has been set and the actors appear to read their lines. The play begins; the drama unfurls; the rubber stamps appear and the cast plays its final scene. The curtain falls and the actors retire to celebrate and await the revival of their performance again next year despite the outrage and disappointment of the audience. " All the world is a stage". How true. How true!