Winter Flounder report

[reason162]

Originally Posted by dakota560

With all due respect? Please don't use words you don't understand the meaning of, it's insulting.

Not my intention. I take it you're operating in good faith, and that you believe what you're saying...that's all I meant.

You most certainly have a narrative, one that involves ineptitude from scientists to regulators. I don't necessarily disagree with that narrative in all cases, but as you said...you've never heard of these studies that point to isolated inshore WF populations. I provided you links to these studies, and though they've passed peer review they don't pass muster with you.

Stony Brook has done a number of studies pertaining to winter flounder, because to trained scientists, the failure of WF to rebound is mysterious...even though there is hardly any rec or comm pressure on these fish for the past decade (I'm referring to the Southern stock). I will link them here, again:

https://you.stonybrook.edu/frisk/res...under-ecology/

You can maybe direct your questions to the Frisk Lab re their methodology, it's certainly not my job to defend or clarify the study...I merely bring it to your attention. Personally, I'm surprised they found 40 flounder to tag lol.

I also didn't fail to notice that you've not mentioned the gene mapping study that showed inbreeding among different populations...which is exactly what you would expect from an isolated, localized breeding species, with a drastic reduction of genetic diversity due to fewer breeding individuals. These studies compliment each others' conclusions. This ought to give you some idea at the hopelessness of WF recovery, at least inshore.

Recreational has it's impacts for sure. But to think striped bass and tog were not and are still not impacted by commercial netting of breeders in the southern states (as far as bass are concerned) and pots, rock hopper trawlers and illegal harvest of short fish being sold to Asian markets (as far as tog are concerned), I also disagree.

90% of the current mortality on striped bass, across their entire distribution, comes from the rec sector. The stock was fully rebuilt after the last moratorium, and now we're completely in the shit bc of a few state's greed...driven by powerful rec sector lobbies.

Potting for tog is largely a LIS problem, yet NJ tog is equally being overfished (that's the official status, "overfished") yet the ASMFC ignored technical committee's recommendations for drastic cuts over and over again. I agree that they should ban commercial togging in all forms, but I also agree with the fisheries biologists' conclusion that rec landings need to be reduced by 50%. Where do you stand on tog regulations? Have you seen the data?

If a 40 fish study of this nature was included in Peer Review but Rutgers Sex and Length Study was dismissed in this latest Peer Review over technicalities, than the situation is more hopeless than I imagined.

Right. So if the sex ratio study doesn't pass peer review, the entire process is suspect. Because YOU already know the answer to the summer flounder question.

You and I will never agree on the cause of what I consider to be a complete collapse of one fishery which started almost 40 years ago and the eventual collapse of another which has all the same signs based on data from the scientific community you defend. The common thread here is destruction of reproduction capacity in two stocks based on over harvest with winter flounder and increases in size retention for summer flounder driven by regulatory increases for recreational and increase in average size fish being harvested by commercials to compensate for reductions in catch quotas. I suppose the harvest of almost exclusively sexually immature fish in the 80's and 90's with summer flounder versus the complete opposite the last two decades is something I made up to support my preconceived position. Again I never introduced third party data in any of my analysis, I used only whats been published by NMFS and ASMFC.

I can agree to anything given convincing data. What you're confusing with this sex ratio hypothesis is correlation vs causation. Again, as I've mentioned to you before...I reserve judgment until the study work its way through the peer review process, if it indeed passes muster.

Though I must say, it does seem like a pat solution doesn't it. If you're right, then we get to have our cake and eat it too: keep smaller slot fish, AND rebuild the biomass. I can see how such a conclusion is tempting to root for...and you'll be wrong to assume I don't root for it too.

[rumster]

The original thread started out as a Winter Flounder report.... As much I appreciate everyone's opinion.... Respectfully, going back and forth disputing statistics and the reason for the collapse of a fishery is getting old.... Anyone seeing any life with the flounders that are left?

[EddieG]

And the show has reached a new low! Guys just put your dicks on the table, measure them and call it a day so we can go back to fishing reports please.

Originally Posted by EddieG

And the show has reached a new low! Guys just put your dicks on the table, measure them and call it a day so we can go back to fishing reports please.

Didn't mean to take up so much valuable time at the expense of all the flounder reports waiting to be posted. Cease and desist it is, was just answering questions which were asked earlier in the thread which escalated between Reason and me. Thought understanding of the facts and opposing opinions would be of interest to the board, bad assumption by me.

Gerry my apologies for causing any disruptions.

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Didn't mean to take up so much valuable time at the expense of all the flounder reports waiting to be posted. Cease and desist it is, was just answering questions which were asked earlier in the thread which escalated between Reason and me. Thought understanding of the facts and opposing opinions would be of interest to the board, bad assumption by me.

Gerry my apologies for causing any disruptions.

Tom was just a few pages.
a lot more posts about how bad fishing sucks by all those not willing to spend 5 minutes to try and understand why.

Just another time it shows Recreational fisherman will never do what it takes to make change happen.

Thanks for your efforts

[reason162]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Didn't mean to take up so much valuable time at the expense of all the flounder reports waiting to be posted.

Lol!

[dales529]

Yes the highjacking of a Winter Flounder "report" deserves a LOL. While maybe some of this could be in its own thread I will never understand the recreational reluctance to intelligent dialogue that was posted here by Tom Dakota, Dan Bias, and Roger Reason162. There needs to be much more of these discussions and interaction if any of you want to see recovery and /or better understanding of our fisheries future. If not than wait for your reports of the dead seas.
Thanks Tom, Dan and Roger for the posts.

I have been working with Tom to get his information higher up the food chain. Roger will send you a PM as information in this post appears frowned upon to get you in the mix if you are interested. We are trying as always to get the fisheries management and science community together for a better approach

[bulletbob]

Guys want "reports" here as usual, and then bitch when they aren't forthcoming. Just for shits and giggles, lets give this a go one more time...

When you click on Message Board, does this section say Fishing Reports?...
Or does it saY Salt Water Fishing?

here's what the site administrator has written concerning this sublect, its right at the top of this page-

"NJFishing.com Salt Water Fishing Use this board to post all general salt water fishing information. Please use the appropriate boards below for all other information". "


Get it?...

The gentlemen engaged in that robust debate, and remarkably in depth information dissemination are thanked and appreciated here, thats for certain...
I dunno, maybe we can ask Gerry for a " Fishing Reports Only" section for those that only want to hear where the fish are, not why they aren't where they should be..

This is a forum for information sharing, spirited debate, good conversation with like minded individuals, , techniques, fishing war stories, bitch sessions, and yes I suppose reports as well.. However a lot of us want to discuss fishing, fisheries management, fishing techniques as well as seeing
" all out slaughter today" followed by pics of bloody decks piled high with carcasses.
In all my years here, I have NEVER once seen Gerry bitch out anyone for posting any type of relevant fishing topic in any of the correct topic sections .. However I have seen members do it a bunch of times, especially when it comes to members not posting "reports' in this section..
again, this is the Salt Water Fishing section.
That entails a lot of diverse discussion options.. thanks,,,, bob

[Brewlugger]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Didn't mean to take up so much valuable time at the expense of all the flounder reports waiting to be posted. Cease and desist it is, was just answering questions which were asked earlier in the thread which escalated between Reason and me. Thought understanding of the facts and opposing opinions would be of interest to the board, bad assumption by me.

Gerry my apologies for causing any disruptions.

No apology needed here brother. Keep fighting the good fight. The Demise and mismanagement of fish stocks should be front and center.

[NoLimit]

Originally Posted by rumster

The original thread started out as a Winter Flounder report.... As much I appreciate everyone's opinion.... Respectfully, going back and forth disputing statistics and the reason for the collapse of a fishery is getting old.... Anyone seeing any life with the flounders that are left?

Wtf you talking about?!

1). These stats are a very valuable report that predicts Fishing not only for this season but subsequent seasons if nothing is done about commercial decimation.

2) These stats are not “opinions”. They are facts