Action Needed Fluke Sea Bass and Scup

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

Well looks like we got some of the commercial allocations shifted over to recreational... Thanks to everyone who pitched in spreading the word and submitted their comments.

Really want to see actual poundage allocations .
By using ACL which incorporated all mortality into our poundage .
Knowing that they give us way more mortality landings than they do commercial discards I don’t believe either that they gave us more actual fish to keep .

And If they did instead of increasing the bag limit or season length we should be pushing for them to lower the minimum size down to 17”


Proof of that is both commercial as well as recreational got a poundage increase in 2021 .
Commercial guys actually got it . Recreational was held off due to the THOUGHT over fishing would occur.

Our over fishing is not happening due to poundage of keepers being caught .
Our over fishing is because of the mortality being charged on all the throwbacks .

Catch ten shorts and get charged 40% mortality you over fished by 30 % , yet didn’t even box a fish .

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Originally Posted by hammer4reel

Our over fishing is not happening due to poundage of keepers being caught .
Our over fishing is because of the mortality being charged on all the throwbacks.
.

To work off Dan's point, everything in the recreational sector for this fishery works off of fishing effort. Number of directed angler fluke trips. If based on the data from 2018, 82% of trip or 7.1 million ended with no keepers and 13% or 1.1 million ended with one keeper, how in God's name did the sector remotely come close to their quota when 8.2 million trips resulted in 1.1 million fish retained. Even with insane discard rates, how is it possible. Might have something to do with the fact identical age class fish landed recreationally have assigned weight values 50% -60% greater than commercial even though everyone is fishing the same biomass. Marine fisheries data, not mine. Basically 1 fish harvested for every 8 angler trips. That equates to significantly less than a practical one fish possession limit, worse than winter flounder at 2.

Gerry to answer the question you didn't answer, recreational got ZERO allocation from commercial since the calculation now works off catch and not landings. Recreational got an increase but so did Commercial after already receiving a 100% increase between 2018 and 2019. Difference is commercial will harvest every last ounce, recreational won't. Smoke and mirrors. My bet is size minimums don't change in 2022 so if 7 million recreational trips in 2018 ended up with no fish harvested, the recreational sector quota for 2022 could be increased by 20 million lbs.and because of the same size minimums, those 7 million trips would still have ended up with zero fish harvested.

All the management bodies know this and the sector is boxed in. You think the recreational sector or the stock benefitted, it didn't. And worst of all, not one change was discussed or made to reduce the harvest of older age classes, address the onslaught of the spawning stock and female population, reduce discard rates or address protection of the spawn and the associated destruction of recruitment levels.

This fishery is mortally wounded while management sits around playing let's make a deal.

Won't be long before the party boat and for hire industry book more winter flounder trips a year than summer flounder.

For anyone who thinks a slot fish or anything below 18" for New York, New Jersey, Ct and RI are an option for 2022, you're living in Fantasyland. The reality is those larger fish are the prime fish being caught by the commercial sector and fisheries management is going to insure they continue being the exclusive harvest of that sector to protect catch values. Until that mentality changes, nothing changes in this fishery other than the fact we'll continue targeting and killing off the spawning stock and larger females and the fishery as a whole will continue declining.

[Rocky]

Originally Posted by hammer4reel

And If they did instead of increasing the bag limit or season length we should be pushing for them to lower the minimum size down to 17”
.

I was told next years size limit would be 17 1/2".

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by Rocky

I was told next years size limit would be 17 1/2".

Maybe you will catch a limit then lol

[Rocky]

Originally Posted by hammer4reel

Maybe you will catch a limit then lol

Bastard!!!

Originally Posted by Rocky

I was told next years size limit would be 17 1/2".

Rocky if we get to 17 1/2, it is movement in the right direction which is what we always wanted. The last time NJ was at 17" was in 2007, albeit with a possession limit of 8. I believe NY, RI and Ct which have higher possession limits @ 4,4 and 6 at 19" currently, with the increased quota but lower size minimum in preferred measures if I'd guess they'll all go to 18" and keep the possession limits they have.

Just an observation, bet all those fish we saw the last few years at 17.99" which had to go back are going to miraculously shrink to 17.49" over the next few years if NJ's minimum is in fact reduced to 17.5". It's just the way it works and most here know what I'm talking about.

My major concern about this past week's meeting if I understand the new allocation process is changing the basis for the new percentages from landings to catch. They just couldn't take quota away from commercial which Gerry is why I disagreed with your post. Commercial didn't give up anything, they got more. Recreational looks to have a quota (landings and discard mortality) of 14.64 million pounds. If that represents 45% of ACL (Allowable Catch Limit, the new allocation methodology) then the commercial allocation at 55% is 17.89 million lbs. bringing the combined quota to 32.53 million lbs.

Remember the stock between 2010 and 2017 lost 70 million fish, mature female population and spawning stock declined by 40% - 50%, 31 million mature females disappeared along with over 60 million mature fish of both genders while recruitment imploded. During that time frame, ACL averaged 20 million lbs. with a low of 11.2 million in 2017.

Someone please help me understand how harvesting 12.5 million lbs. more a year based on the 2010 - 2017 average or 200% more than 2017's combined quotas of continued older age classes at essentially the same size minimums is going to rebuild the depressed spawning stock and female population of this stock? In 2009, when the stock had an estimated population reported at 194 million fish, the combined commercial and recreational quota was approximately 21 million lbs. The population has declined through 2017 by 70 million fish and the 2022 combined quota is 32.5 million lbs. What the hell are we doing?

The lack of logic has reached new heights. Continue the onslaught of the spawning stock, large female breeders, offer again no protection to the spawn and we're all expected to believe the fishery which has been demolished under this past decades regulations will rebound. Recreational anglers don't fish during the spawn and therefore have no impact on it's efficacy, the commercial sector does. In 2017, the commercial sectors quota was 5.66 millions lbs., 2022 it's 17.89 million lbs. or a 216% increase in 5 years. At the same time, the regulations for most states recreationally remained relatively the same. The easy answer for fisheries management to justify that inequity between sectors is that fishing effort went up, a completely hypothetical number no one can support.

Short-term management of a long-term resource will always result in long-term failure in fisheries management or business. This stock is destined to fail because of utter incompetency and corrupt management, only question remaining is when.

That's it for me guys, what's happening in this fishery is absolutely incredible and an absolute validation the focus of this fishery is not the health of the stock but industry. Why, doesn't really matter but the decisions being made are some of the worst I've ever witnessed in my life, career or otherwise, and stock assessment statistics bear that out.

ttt, just think it's important for everyone to understand the facts and how this fisheries is being mismanaged.

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by dakota560

ttt, just think it's important for everyone to understand the facts and how this fisheries is being mismanaged.

Starting to think there are so many guys not catching fish regularly that just aren’t interested in what’s really happening .
Seems like the guys who fluke fished when the limit was 8 fish get it , and care .

To see such a great fishery decline with so many having their head in the sand sucks .

Seems even those making a living here on this site would rather cry their business is being destroyed but not help themselves to make it productive again .

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Scathing article in what happened at this past weeks Commission / Council meeting in the recently published Fisherman Making Waves Edition that just came out regarding sector allocations and the evils of MRIP in general. Believe article was written by Jim Hutchinson Jr. I'll see if I can post a link later tonight.

[dales529]

Originally Posted by dakota560

ttt, just think it's important for everyone to understand the facts and how this fisheries is being mismanaged.

All
More to come on this. A lot going on and a slot fish is a focus group within NJMFC, ASMFC etc . Allocation liberalization is a step in the right direction and there are many layers in that process before "other" measures can be done. This includes, NJMFC, ASMFC and Technical committee review ongoing.

RFA NJ and RFA National is all over this as are the councils. There are meetings coming up Jan 6th with NJMFC and Jan 24 with ASMFC.

Tom: Your analysis has been reviewed with some agreed to and some not but its NOT being ignored! Great Job

Hope to post more detailed information before the Jan 6th NJ meeting.