NJMFC Meeting 5/17 - Fluke Regulations

[Ice Cream Bill]

4pm meeting down in Avalon, NJ. Why not just make it in Cape May for all of us? How convenient! The same stuff happens every year with the MTA in New York when they suggest raising subway/bus fares and bridge tolls. Meetings are scheduled for public comment with no positive results. Fares are raised and the public gets screwed--same with our recreational fishing regulations.

[TerriMc223]

Avalon is a better choice for a fisheries meeting than say Trenton. At least it is at the Jersey Shore.
The 4:00 start does make the meeting possible for charter and head boat personnel who are done by mid afternoon.
The 4:00 start also allows for attendance by two important demographics: 1) school/college age anglers ( especially school based fishing clubs) who just might have to bring a parent or two with them and 2) retired senior anglers (who have the highest percentage of registered and active voters.)

Yes, we will be most likely be forced to accept a fluke season that none of us are remotely happy with.
However, if the only choices are 3 @18" shorter season or 3@19" longer season, I vote for 3@19".

Haven't posted in a while but here's my thoughts about where we are and what the future holds in store. The proposals on the table are nothing more than a continuation of the continued mismanagement of this fishery which landed us in the mess we're in initially. I've shared a number of posts using NMFS's own data which creates a compelling case that their management philosophy of the summer flounder fishery is not addressing the problem it's in fact causing it. The 25 year trends their own data reflects couldn't be more revealing. Yet NMFS, ASMFC continue down the same path of cutting quotas and slashing catch. Why because they can. This is the text book case of politics at work. Washington has the power and everything else I'm afraid to say is just noise. All about power, greed and some where along the line politicians and committee members getting their pockets lined.

A few facts. NMFS / ASMFC and others adamantly say the problem with a declining SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) is we continue to over harvest the resource. Again keep in mind this is based on NMFS's data arrived at from their own science. Over the period 1989 and 2003 when SSB increased by 600%, total catch (commercial and recreational) averaged ~50% of SSB. That's the average. In 1991 - 108%, 1992 - 100%, 1993 - 81%, 1994 - 70%. At these levels of catch, SSB was skyrocketing higher because we still had adequate recruitment (reproduction) to not only sustain but grow SSB. In 2015, the last year of reported numbers from NMFS, total catch was 21% of SSB! When numbers are published for SSB in '16 and '17, there's no reason to believe or data to suggest that percentage won't decline to the 15% range or lower.

So here's the million dollar question for all the committee members, politicians, government agencies, self proclaimed conservation pundits like Charles Witek (whose thoughts and ideas represent precisely why the fishery is collapsing), why is the summer flounder spawning stock biomass continuing it's decline when catch totals as a percentage of the biomass itself have been cut by almost 70% on average? And add to that when the harvest percentage was 300 - 400% higher than today, SSB increased by 600% at those higher catch percentages. Possession limits were larger, size limits were lower yet SSB exploded higher.

So what's changed? REPRODUCTION. Why has it changed? WE'RE OVER-HARVESTING FEMALES PRIMARILY DUE TO CONTINUED REGULATORY SIZE INCREASES. SSB recruitment strength has been destroyed and is continuing it's decline. It's down over 80% over the last 20 years! That is a startling statistic which continues to fly under the radar screen. NMFS's continued emphasis on reducing catch by mandating higher size limits has crippled this fishery. 2016 continued down that path, '17 is continuing down that path, '18 proposed further cuts through again size limit increases will continue down that path. Why, two reasons. NMFS has the power to do so under MSA. Second if they shift gears with their management ideology of this fishery now by default they'll admit they've been wrong with these increases all these years. They won't put themselves in that position.

Here's my prediction. SSB will continue it's ~13 year decline, recruitment number will continue their precarious ~22 year decline. 2016 and 2017 will add to that as will 2018 if NMFS follows their same philosophy toward the management of this fishery. NMFS won't introduce size and sex into their models until they approve it through Peer Review. That won't be until '18 at earliest which means the introduction of a slot size in possession limit regulations won't happen until 2019 at earliest. That means SSB and recruitment will continue their declining trend lines over 4 more years from the last reported numbers in 2015. This will force "Emergency Measures" to be adopted under MSA which for all practical purposes means an industry closure. Mark this post, it's going to happen.

NMFS knows their wrong but won't admit it unless it comes from them. In three to four years, they'll announce based on THEIR findings, they've uncovered the fact that too many female summer flounder are being harvested and they'll introduce slots but by then it'll be too late. GAME OVER! This is the political conundrum we find ourselves in. Don't blame organizations like RFA, SSFFF and others who are diligently fighting the battle. This is all about David and Goliath and you know who David is in this mess and unfortunately this time someone stole his slingshot.

The data is there as clear as day highlighting the problems NMFS's management philosophy has created and the solution is fairly simple BUT politics won't allow it. The resource is being absolutely destroyed by the governing bodies tasked with protecting it and we're being asked to pay the price! I'm not one to not comply with regulations but that's one check personally I'm not willing to write. And only because accepting the proposed regulations is by default accepting the fact we have no say in this matter and regulations I know are crippling the fishery are our only option. If it means complete anarchy on the water, someone needs to take a stance.

[Rocky]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Haven't posted in a while but here's my thoughts about where we are and what the future holds in store. The proposals on the table are nothing more than a continuation of the continued mismanagement of this fishery which landed us in the mess we're in initially. I've shared a number of posts using NMFS's own data which creates a compelling case that their management philosophy of the summer flounder fishery is not addressing the problem it's in fact causing it. The 25 year trends their own data reflects couldn't be more revealing. Yet NMFS, ASMFC continue down the same path of cutting quotas and slashing catch. Why because they can. This is the text book case of politics at work. Washington has the power and everything else I'f afraid to say is just noise. All about power, greed and some where along the line politicians and committee members getting their pockets lined.

A few facts. NMFS / ASMFC and others adamantly say the problem with a declining SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) is we continue to over harvest the resource. Again keep in mind this is based on NMFS's data arrived at from their own science. Over the period 1989 and 2003 when SSB increased by 600%, total catch (commercial and recreational) averaged ~50% of SSB. That's the average. In 1991 - 108%, 1992 - 100%, 1993 - 81%, 1994 - 70%. At these levels of catch, SSB was skyrocketing higher because we still had adequate recruitment (reproduction) to not only sustain but grow SSB. In 2015, the last year of reported numbers from NMFS, total catch was 21% of SSB! When numbers are published for SSB in '16 and '17, there's no reason to believe or data to suggest that percentage won't decline to the 15% range or lower.

So here's the million dollar question for all the committee members, politicians, government agencies, self proclaimed conversation pundits like Charles Witek (whose thoughts and ideas represent precisely why the fishery is collapsing), why is the summer flounder spawning stock biomass continuing it's decline when catch totals as a percentage of the biomass itself have been cut by almost 70% on average? And add to that when the harvest percentage was 300 - 400% higher than today, SSB increased by 600% at those higher catch percentages. Possession limits were larger, size limits were larger yet SSB exploded higher.

So what's changed? REPRODUCTION. Why has it changed? WE'RE OVER-HARVESTING FEMALES PRIMARILY DUE TO CONTINUED REGULATORY SIZE INCREASES. SSB recruitment strength has been destroyed and is continuing it's decline. It's down over 80% over the last 20 years! That is a startling statistic which continues to fly under the radar screen. NMFS's continued emphasis on reducing catch by mandating higher size limits has crippled this fishery. 2016 continued down that path, '17 is continuing down that path, '18 proposed further cuts through again size limit increases will continue down that path. Why, two reasons. NMFS has the power to do so under MSA. Second if they shift gears with their management ideology of this fishery now by default they admit they've been wrong with these increases all these years. They won't put themselves in that position.

Here's my prediction. SSB will continue it's ~13 year decline, recruitment number will continue their precarious ~22 year decline. 2016 and 2017 will add to that as will 2018 if NMFS follows their same philosophy toward the management of this fishery. NMFS won't introduce size and sex into their models until they approve it through Peer Review. That won't be until '18 at earliest which means the introduction of a slot size in possession limit regulations won't happen until 2019 at earliest. That means SSB and recruitment will continue their declining trend lines over 4 more years from the last reported numbers in 2015. This will force "Emergency Measures" to be adopted under MSA which for all practical purposes means an industry closure. Mark this post, it's going to happen.

NMFS knows their wrong but won't admit it unless it comes from them. In three to four years, they'll announce based on THEIR findings, they've uncovered the fact that too many female summer flounder are being harvested and they'll introduce slots but by then it'll be too late. GAME OVER! This is the political conundrum we find ourselves in. Don't blame organizations like RFA, SSFFF and others who are diligently fighting the battle. This is all about David and Goliath and you know who David is in this mess and unfortunately this time someone stole his slingshot.

The data is there as clear as day highlighting the problems NMFS's management philosophy has created and the solution is fairly simple BUT politics won't allow it. The resource is being absolutely destroyed by the governing bodies tasked with protecting it and we're being asked to pay the price! I'm not one to not comply with regulations but that's one check personally I'm not willing to write. And only because accepting the proposed regulations is by default accepting the fact we have no say in this matter and regulations I know are crippling the fishery are our only option. If it means complete anarchy on the water, someone needs to take a stance.

God Bless you for making sense out of this disaster. The people who are making the regs are driving the bus with all of us and our fishery over a cliff.

[Rocky]

When will our fishery managers admit the truth, or be replaced for incompetence?

[captain george angler]

I am calling the Div of fish and game tomorrow and objecting to a meeting that is so important being held so far away from the northern fleet. You watch what they push through at this meeting. They were to fight for us and go out of compliance if needed. Complaining here does nothing. Call someone tomorrow.feed up Captain George Angler.

[Joey Dah Fish]

Avalon ? The furthest place away from the fisherman and the fleets. Hmmmm I wonder why?

[GDubya07]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Haven't posted in a while but here's my thoughts about where we are and what the future holds in store. The proposals on the table are nothing more than a continuation of the continued mismanagement of this fishery which landed us in the mess we're in initially. I've shared a number of posts using NMFS's own data which creates a compelling case that their management philosophy of the summer flounder fishery is not addressing the problem it's in fact causing it. The 25 year trends their own data reflects couldn't be more revealing. Yet NMFS, ASMFC continue down the same path of cutting quotas and slashing catch. Why because they can. This is the text book case of politics at work. Washington has the power and everything else I'm afraid to say is just noise. All about power, greed and some where along the line politicians and committee members getting their pockets lined.

A few facts. NMFS / ASMFC and others adamantly say the problem with a declining SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) is we continue to over harvest the resource. Again keep in mind this is based on NMFS's data arrived at from their own science. Over the period 1989 and 2003 when SSB increased by 600%, total catch (commercial and recreational) averaged ~50% of SSB. That's the average. In 1991 - 108%, 1992 - 100%, 1993 - 81%, 1994 - 70%. At these levels of catch, SSB was skyrocketing higher because we still had adequate recruitment (reproduction) to not only sustain but grow SSB. In 2015, the last year of reported numbers from NMFS, total catch was 21% of SSB! When numbers are published for SSB in '16 and '17, there's no reason to believe or data to suggest that percentage won't decline to the 15% range or lower.

So here's the million dollar question for all the committee members, politicians, government agencies, self proclaimed conversation pundits like Charles Witek (whose thoughts and ideas represent precisely why the fishery is collapsing), why is the summer flounder spawning stock biomass continuing it's decline when catch totals as a percentage of the biomass itself have been cut by almost 70% on average? And add to that when the harvest percentage was 300 - 400% higher than today, SSB increased by 600% at those higher catch percentages. Possession limits were larger, size limits were lower yet SSB exploded higher.

So what's changed? REPRODUCTION. Why has it changed? WE'RE OVER-HARVESTING FEMALES PRIMARILY DUE TO CONTINUED REGULATORY SIZE INCREASES. SSB recruitment strength has been destroyed and is continuing it's decline. It's down over 80% over the last 20 years! That is a startling statistic which continues to fly under the radar screen. NMFS's continued emphasis on reducing catch by mandating higher size limits has crippled this fishery. 2016 continued down that path, '17 is continuing down that path, '18 proposed further cuts through again size limit increases will continue down that path. Why, two reasons. NMFS has the power to do so under MSA. Second if they shift gears with their management ideology of this fishery now by default they admit they've been wrong with these increases all these years. They won't put themselves in that position.

Here's my prediction. SSB will continue it's ~13 year decline, recruitment number will continue their precarious ~22 year decline. 2016 and 2017 will add to that as will 2018 if NMFS follows their same philosophy toward the management of this fishery. NMFS won't introduce size and sex into their models until they approve it through Peer Review. That won't be until '18 at earliest which means the introduction of a slot size in possession limit regulations won't happen until 2019 at earliest. That means SSB and recruitment will continue their declining trend lines over 4 more years from the last reported numbers in 2015. This will force "Emergency Measures" to be adopted under MSA which for all practical purposes means an industry closure. Mark this post, it's going to happen.

NMFS knows their wrong but won't admit it unless it comes from them. In three to four years, they'll announce based on THEIR findings, they've uncovered the fact that too many female summer flounder are being harvested and they'll introduce slots but by then it'll be too late. GAME OVER! This is the political conundrum we find ourselves in. Don't blame organizations like RFA, SSFFF and others who are diligently fighting the battle. This is all about David and Goliath and you know who David is in this mess and unfortunately this time someone stole his slingshot.

The data is there as clear as day highlighting the problems NMFS's management philosophy has created and the solution is fairly simple BUT politics won't allow it. The resource is being absolutely destroyed by the governing bodies tasked with protecting it and we're being asked to pay the price! I'm not one to not comply with regulations but that's one check personally I'm not willing to write. And only because accepting the proposed regulations is by default accepting the fact we have no say in this matter and regulations I know are crippling the fishery are our only option. If it means complete anarchy on the water, someone needs to take a stance.

Dakota , Thank you for putting this in terms that everyone could understand even my big dome head

GDubs-

[Ry609]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Haven't posted in a while but here's my thoughts about where we are and what the future holds in store. The proposals on the table are nothing more than a continuation of the continued mismanagement of this fishery which landed us in the mess we're in initially. I've shared a number of posts using NMFS's own data which creates a compelling case that their management philosophy of the summer flounder fishery is not addressing the problem it's in fact causing it. The 25 year trends their own data reflects couldn't be more revealing. Yet NMFS, ASMFC continue down the same path of cutting quotas and slashing catch. Why because they can. This is the text book case of politics at work. Washington has the power and everything else I'm afraid to say is just noise. All about power, greed and some where along the line politicians and committee members getting their pockets lined.

A few facts. NMFS / ASMFC and others adamantly say the problem with a declining SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) is we continue to over harvest the resource. Again keep in mind this is based on NMFS's data arrived at from their own science. Over the period 1989 and 2003 when SSB increased by 600%, total catch (commercial and recreational) averaged ~50% of SSB. That's the average. In 1991 - 108%, 1992 - 100%, 1993 - 81%, 1994 - 70%. At these levels of catch, SSB was skyrocketing higher because we still had adequate recruitment (reproduction) to not only sustain but grow SSB. In 2015, the last year of reported numbers from NMFS, total catch was 21% of SSB! When numbers are published for SSB in '16 and '17, there's no reason to believe or data to suggest that percentage won't decline to the 15% range or lower.

So here's the million dollar question for all the committee members, politicians, government agencies, self proclaimed conversation pundits like Charles Witek (whose thoughts and ideas represent precisely why the fishery is collapsing), why is the summer flounder spawning stock biomass continuing it's decline when catch totals as a percentage of the biomass itself have been cut by almost 70% on average? And add to that when the harvest percentage was 300 - 400% higher than today, SSB increased by 600% at those higher catch percentages. Possession limits were larger, size limits were lower yet SSB exploded higher.

So what's changed? REPRODUCTION. Why has it changed? WE'RE OVER-HARVESTING FEMALES PRIMARILY DUE TO CONTINUED REGULATORY SIZE INCREASES. SSB recruitment strength has been destroyed and is continuing it's decline. It's down over 80% over the last 20 years! That is a startling statistic which continues to fly under the radar screen. NMFS's continued emphasis on reducing catch by mandating higher size limits has crippled this fishery. 2016 continued down that path, '17 is continuing down that path, '18 proposed further cuts through again size limit increases will continue down that path. Why, two reasons. NMFS has the power to do so under MSA. Second if they shift gears with their management ideology of this fishery now by default they admit they've been wrong with these increases all these years. They won't put themselves in that position.

Here's my prediction. SSB will continue it's ~13 year decline, recruitment number will continue their precarious ~22 year decline. 2016 and 2017 will add to that as will 2018 if NMFS follows their same philosophy toward the management of this fishery. NMFS won't introduce size and sex into their models until they approve it through Peer Review. That won't be until '18 at earliest which means the introduction of a slot size in possession limit regulations won't happen until 2019 at earliest. That means SSB and recruitment will continue their declining trend lines over 4 more years from the last reported numbers in 2015. This will force "Emergency Measures" to be adopted under MSA which for all practical purposes means an industry closure. Mark this post, it's going to happen.

NMFS knows their wrong but won't admit it unless it comes from them. In three to four years, they'll announce based on THEIR findings, they've uncovered the fact that too many female summer flounder are being harvested and they'll introduce slots but by then it'll be too late. GAME OVER! This is the political conundrum we find ourselves in. Don't blame organizations like RFA, SSFFF and others who are diligently fighting the battle. This is all about David and Goliath and you know who David is in this mess and unfortunately this time someone stole his slingshot.

The data is there as clear as day highlighting the problems NMFS's management philosophy has created and the solution is fairly simple BUT politics won't allow it. The resource is being absolutely destroyed by the governing bodies tasked with protecting it and we're being asked to pay the price! I'm not one to not comply with regulations but that's one check personally I'm not willing to write. And only because accepting the proposed regulations is by default accepting the fact we have no say in this matter and regulations I know are crippling the fishery are our only option. If it means complete anarchy on the water, someone needs to take a stance.

I'd vote for you to give all presentations at future meetings on behalf of all recreational fishermen...and then for president! lol

[SaltLife1980]

Originally Posted by hartattack

I'm going, who's with me ?

Its a 2 and half hour drive for me. But im thinking of taking the day and making the drive