2024 Fluke Regs

[Gerry Zagorski]

Putting this here as a place holder to keep track of things and possible actions needed as the process unfolds.

Right now we're looking at a 28% reduction for all states and it looks as if Public Comments on NJ options will be just ahead of and at the NJMFC meeting on 3/7/24 where they vote on and finalize our regs.

[Broad Bill]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

Putting this here as a place holder to keep track of things and possible actions needed as the process unfolds.

Right now we're looking at a 28% reduction for all states and it looks as if Public Comments on NJ options will be just ahead of and at the NJMFC meeting on 3/7/24 where they vote on and finalize our regs.

Not trying to stir the pot but can someone reference a recent situation when public comments were actually listened to or influenced decisions made by NJMFC, NMFS, ASMFC or MAMFC in prior year regulations. Not trying to be a wet blanket but recreational anglers seemingly go through this process every year, which appears to be nothing more than an MSA mandated check the box process, only to be disappointed when the final regulations are set due to a handful of politically connected individuals with their own personal agendas. If the decisions were for the betterment of the fishery and both sectors no one would care but this fishery has been in a decline and regulations year over year more restrictive for longer than most people here can remember.


Talk about how many times you walk into the same wall before you realize you have to use the door. I hope this year is different but there's no reason whatsoever to believe it will be as we just keep following the same broken process.

[Gerry Zagorski]

I hear you Bill.

Last time we had an opportunity to choose Fluke options was 2022 and there were a fair amount of people who showed up on the webinar and voiced their preference followed by a lively discussion among the council. I think it changed some of the Council members minds and that option was chosen.

Human nature to think if the option you spoke up for and support is voted against, you think your voice was not heard.

Does the Council have a pre disposed favored option and do they discuss it prior to the meeting? Pretty sure they do which means you need get to the council members ahead of time too...

I also advocate a more open, formal and transparent way of collecting and tallying which options the public supports. The decision is ultimately still the council's but at least we'll know what the public wanted and everything is out in the light of day for all to see...

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

I hear you Bill.

Last time we had an opportunity to choose Fluke options was 2022 and there were a fair amount of people who showed up on the webinar and voiced their preference followed by a lively discussion among the council. I think it changed some of the Council members minds and that option was chosen.

Human nature to think if the option you spoke up for and support is voted against, you think your voice was not heard.

Does the Council have a pre disposed favored option and do they discuss it prior to the meeting? Pretty sure they do which means you need get to the council members ahead of time too...

I also advocate a more open, formal and transparent way of collecting and tallying which options the public supports. The decision is ultimately still the council's but at least we'll know what the public wanted and everything is out in the light of day for all to see...

That’s really not accurate .
Pat also explained it as such here after that meeting .

There is a preferered option before the deciding meeting . Anyone liking that option had ZERO need to listen to the webinar or call in .

Way more people were happy with a lengthy season at (3) above 17 1/2”
Than the handful of phone ins liking the longer season was well underscored by how many didn’t get to talk at that meeting , and signed a petition against its results the same night . Over 2000 signatures the next day


It came out well in advance of that meeting there was going to be a push for the longest season , no matter what the cost .(by a member of the council )
And many phone calls were made during the weeks preceding it .

The slot of less than 1” just so happened to be part of getting the longest season .


Then we get to 2023 regs and they state if we open up discussion for fluke regs to change them . We will also be opening other species of the master plan using the new management options .
Well what happens after another season of the slot , they still take away sea bass quota weeks later .

There has not been an honest input allowed for fluke since the original meeting where Kirby Roots was present at in 2017

It’s honestly very sad how quickly we have lost a huge majority of what we are allowed to fish for in just the past 15 years .

NMFS has done nothing correctly to stop the crash , and if anything they continue to make more mistakes yearly accelerating it .

.

[dales529]

Lets be brutally honest IMHO here.
There are basically a handful like 3 / 4 recreational fishermen responding in detail to these posts! All great stuff which I mainly agree with yet its "groundhog day"

What I believe ( Have posted and been involved often in "regulation bs" since 2008. No matter what "Model", "Formula", "Algorithm" put in to make us feel someone more intelligent is managing our fish the below is the same.
1) Any data on RHL is way over calculated
2) Any data on Mortality rate is double way over calculated
3) Any data on Recreational fishing EFFORT is triple way over calculated
3) Any data on trawl surveys for SSB / recruitment also BS as its not done properly or at all.

So all public input / all meetings by MAMFC. ASMFC, NJMFC etc should be held on 02/02/24. GROUNDHOG DAY!

Until the large sum of a few hundred thousand NJ recreational fishermen get off their ass and stop pretending that complaining or offering logical regulations on the internet is going to work than its "Groundhog Day" again for 2024.

Dont ask me what to do either, its all out there so just get off your ass and do it.

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by dales529

Lets be brutally honest IMHO here.
There are basically a handful like 3 / 4 recreational fishermen responding in detail to these posts! All great stuff which I mainly agree with yet its "groundhog day"

What I believe ( Have posted and been involved often in "regulation bs" since 2008. No matter what "Model", "Formula", "Algorithm" put in to make us feel someone more intelligent is managing our fish the below is the same.
1) Any data on RHL is way over calculated
2) Any data on Mortality rate is double way over calculated
3) Any data on Recreational fishing EFFORT is triple way over calculated
3) Any data on trawl surveys for SSB / recruitment also BS as its not done properly or at all.

So all public input / all meetings by MAMFC. ASMFC, NJMFC etc should be held on 02/02/24. GROUNDHOG DAY!

Until the large sum of a few hundred thousand NJ recreational fishermen get off their ass and stop pretending that complaining or offering logical regulations on the internet is going to work than its "Groundhog Day" again for 2024.

Dont ask me what to do either, its all out there so just get off your ass and do it.

I agree with a lot of that Dave , but feel the way input is both collected and ALLOWED. To be used is not what anyone believes .
If looking for input from everyone wanting to be involved current format and timelines doesn’t allow it .

And just like anything else if we actually got 10% to be involved that would be huge .

Friends I have at FG did a decent survey last year after having success doing so in the freshwater formats .
The saltwater one after extensive work was not used

Currently hearing many models are being run , and a moderate season with a decent bag limit may still be able to happen .
So hopefully we get a little lucky and don’t loose as badly as we have been ,

[dales529]

Originally Posted by hammer4reel

I agree with a lot of that Dave , but feel the way input is both collected and ALLOWED. To be used is not what anyone believes .
If looking for input from everyone wanting to be involved current format and timelines doesn’t allow it .

And just like anything else if we actually got 10% to be involved that would be huge .

Friends I have at FG did a decent survey last year after having success doing so in the freshwater formats .
The saltwater one after extensive work was not used

Currently hearing many models are being run , and a moderate season with a decent bag limit may still be able to happen .
So hopefully we get a little lucky and don’t loose as badly as we have been ,

Capt Dan. Thanks and I agree with a lot you have posted especially the split seasons as we could all wait until June for NJ Ocean fluke. But again its too logical,
Also agree with what's allowed on input! Having said that if 10% filled out the count my fish survey accurately per trip it could help.

The salt water registry gives NJ an idea ( although some are against it) with zero repercussion on NJ anglers that put tackle, fuel and participation into NJ Recreational Salt fisheries yet less sign up than fresh water licenses even though its free. I could agree more may get involved with a salt license but again against it as the fee would go somewhere else than fisheries.

FG does a great job and IF a Salt survey were allowed it would be great.

I am hearing from my people the same that it may not be that bad for fluke this year.

[Broad Bill]

Politics is a dirty business, corrupt and all too often criminal and today is more based on self indulgence than public service. Fisheries management is politics and even worse for salt water concerns it reports up through the Secretary of Commerce as opposed to the Department of the Interior as it did in the 70's. That's the Secretary of Commerce, not the Secretary of Fisheries and Wildlife Management.

Someone once posted on this site, and you know who you are, that until fisheries management starts managing fisheries and not the sectors or industry who utilize those fisheries, decisions will continue being made for the wrong reasons and stocks will suffer which is exactly what we've been seeing for decades.

2024 regulations will be here soon enough and we'll see what they bring. My opinion based on decades of failed management practices and continuous disparities in the fair and proportionate allocations of these resources between sectors gives me no hope or reason to believe 2024 or any year will be different. The only time regulations change is after it's too late. Case in point, whiting, ling, blackfish, weakfish, cod, stripers, winter flounder, makos and soon to be summer flounder. That's not management, that's exploitation.

This isn't a democratic or republican issue before anyone questions my political affiliation, it's the result of an inherently broken process which will continue producing the same failed results until and if ever radical changes are made from the top down. Everything else is just window dressing. We can't continue ignoring tell tale signs of struggling fisheries until it's too late and in the same breathe talk about sustainable fishery practices. It's a contradiction of terms which has unfortunately led to the disappearance of too many great fisheries in our lifetime.

I remember in 2009 and 2010 when NY went to a 2 fish possession limit at 21". I don't think anyone believed it could happen then and certainly no one thought it would ever happen in New Jersey. Well 15 years later, we're quickly approaching those same regulations which will kill more mega female breeders and cause even more discard mortality from the recreational sector. It's unconscionable anybody continues to stick with management practices that have led to nothing but failed results over the last 20 years.

[Dclark2]

I can’t believe that anyone in this day and age would still think that a person goes fishing to put meat on the table. Those days are long gone when they started having limits. No one would get up in the middle of the night to get on their favorite boat to reserve THEIR spot. That has nothing to do with how many fish you are bringing home. You choose your boat for service provided, friends, mates and captain. GOOD DAY OUT..

I do believe that states that border each other should have the same regulations and seasons as close to possible.

If the breeders are in fact over 18 inches then that limit should be 1 fish and the lesser size should be higher.

Gerry could you help with posting a pole on your site as to people that would like certain size limits ex. 2 fish under 18 and one over just an example....

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by Dclark2

I can’t believe that anyone in this day and age would still think that a person goes fishing to put meat on the table. Those days are long gone when they started having limits. No one would get up in the middle of the night to get on their favorite boat to reserve THEIR spot. That has nothing to do with how many fish you are bringing home. You choose your boat for service provided, friends, mates and captain. GOOD DAY OUT..

I do believe that states that border each other should have the same regulations and seasons as close to possible.

If the breeders are in fact over 18 inches then that limit should be 1 fish and the lesser size should be higher.

Gerry could you help with posting a pole on your site as to people that would like certain size limits ex. 2 fish under 18 and one over just an example....

I would say older anglers are more apt to pay for a good day on the water . Not caring as much about what’s going home .

Younger anglers still working harder to make ends meet need to. Have something going home to justify the expense .

Just one look at how railed sea bass and other bottom boats get , where it’s about filling the freezer .
.
Basing fisheries management can’t just be done on what size breeders are when we are also allowing a commercial catch .

Why should good anglers Oceanside , Get charged a huge mortality of discard when throwing 20” size fish back
Looking for smaller fish , that are also mopped up by a commercial boat that same night .

At their required 40% mortality , if we throw back 10 fluke we over fish by 30% without even taking a fish home


There are drastically different bodies of fish in the vast amount of fishable areas .

Letting commercial boats drag for fluke when they move offshore getting ready to spawn is about as stupid as it gets .
Having them throwing back by catch while fishing for other fish , sometimes in higher numbers than their quotas are is even more ridiculous.
.
If we are trying to protect resources for future generations a whole redo of current practices has to happen .
What we have lost in 15 years , will turn to a wipe out in another 5.
.


Only way I see it changing is if lawsuits get filed against NMFS , and if that happens it will probably be strictly a commercial endeavor. Because recreational fisherman don’t want to throw 10 bucks a piece towards fighting for their rights .


More research to know what the actual break down of each fishery is made up of would be huge .
Are there more females , more males . More sub 18” fish , more 18” plud sized fish .
What’s the actual number .
Good decisions need all available information , not based on one of 10 parts .

.