Fur-fish-game publishes delaware river flathead nights by ken beam

[AndyS]

"I would bet Musky eat more small mouths and walleye in the Delaware River than Flatheads so based on the logic being tossed around here, I guess we should declare Muskies invasive and mandate killing them as well."

Again I see you are missing the point how Invasive compares to Introduced.
Think of it this way, your whole distant family moves into your house and they eat everything in the fridge (they don't eat you of course) so what do you do, you move. Maybe the fish that were foraging on bluegills can't find anymore so they more on. This is how an Invasive fish works, it DISPLACES the other fish.

Why did New Jersey Department of Fish and Wildlife declare Flathead Catfish Invasive ?

Originally Posted by AndyS

"I would bet Musky eat more small mouths and walleye in the Delaware River than Flatheads so based on the logic being tossed around here, I guess we should declare Muskies invasive and mandate killing them as well."

Again I see you are missing the point how Invasive compares to Introduced.
Think of it this way, your whole distant family moves into your house and they eat everything in the fridge (they don't eat you of course) so what do you do, you move. Maybe the fish that were foraging on bluegills can't find anymore so they more on. This is how an Invasive fish works, it DISPLACES the other fish.

Why did New Jersey Department of Fish and Wildlife declare Flathead Catfish Invasive ?

Andy I understand the difference between invasive and introduced. Why NJ declared them invasive, you'd have to ask them. Maybe F&G takes offense to the fact they introduced them by accident years ago or there's funding implications for fish they don't stock. Maybe it's politics, I have no idea. What I'm not aware of in any of the three major river systems discussed of any species which has been displaced or experienced substantial declines the result of flat heads. Reason I'm not aware is it hasn't happened. The articles I posted substantiate that fact especially in the case of American Shad which you eluded to and small mouths which have rebounded from environmental disasters, not flat head displacement.

Maybe the question we should be asking is why are flat heads not considered invasive in many states but are in others. Seems if they were a problem for one state they'd be a problem for every state.

And for what it's worth, I do have many family members who enjoy the benefits of my home without paying room or board. And yes they eat everything in the fridge. Difference is when inventory gets low, I go out and replenish supplies, I don't kill the family members.

As asked, give me an example in our area of one species negatively impacted by flat heads and we can have an intellectual discussion. Because you're argument can apply to any predator fish at the top of the food chain including sharks, musky, pike, stripers, channels and even walleye. They all consume massive amounts of food and I'm sure for the reasons you stated potentially displace fish or move on to more productive waters. Why aren't all these fish considered invasive with a mandate to kill every one caught? Believe that's a valid question. Difference is every fresh water species mentioned above is stocked by NJ and maybe someone in F&G has a personal agenda about fish they don't actually stock or maybe there's behind the scenes funding issues the public isn't aware of.

If they're doing damage to native species more important to the economy and anglers and it's proven, I agree it should be dealt with. But my position is simply labeling them invasive and asking people primarily who don't fish for or catch them they have to retain them if caught as by-catch is accomplishing absolutely zero controlling their population. If NJF&G wants their numbers more controlled, manage the fishery in a way that incentivizes maximum harvest. Right now the current regulations are useless and most die hard flathead fisherman release their catch. Same way most die hard musky and trophy pike anglers release their catch.

[thmyorke1]

Hell yea, Ken! You're famous

@Dakota thanks for sharing. I had questions. How long have flatheads been in the big D? Have they really grown to their limit in population numbers, or are they still spreading and growing to this day? Is this the most spread out they will become? Or will they not develop a thicker population in the upper stretches of the big D?
Maybe we are still in the beginning phase of their population in the Big D.

All I know, those flatheads dont stand a chance in the west branch Delaware, the fly anglers will rally their funds and efforts at any cost to get any predatory fish over 30 inches from their waters LOL. (I jk the trout scene there is incredible and respected!)

Answer to your first question is

1999
The first Flathead (10 inches) was caught in the Lambertville section of the D & R Canal in July of 1999. (The above three Delaware River Flathead catfish undoubtedly originated from a reproducing population in Schuylkill River.

I've also heard that NJF&G or PAF&G inadvertantly years ago stocked flatheads in the Delaware that were mistaken as channels from a reliable source. But I think it's safe to say flatheads have been in the system for at minimum 20 years.

I can't definitively answer your question about population and growth potential going forward but would ask this question. If they haven't expanded or grown in population of any significance in the last 20 years, why would we believe they will going forward?

I completely agree with you about the upper stretches of the Big D and the opposition from the trout angling community. I actually agree if it was a threat to that fishery, something would have to be done and would have been done already. Fact is there's no indication I've come across it's even remotely posed a threat.

My reasoning why I believe they won't encroach in those areas in any discernible numbers and haven't so far is water temperature and habitat. Brodhead and Bushkill and Flatbrook on the NJ side all empty into the Delaware near or above the Gap and are all cold water tribs. It's why trout flourish there. That's not the water flatheads inhabit nor the habitat they seek. I've researched the Brodhead, Bushkill and Flatbrook and haven't come across one report of a flathead found in any of those systems. Why, they're loaded with trout but water temperature and habitat are not compatible. I believe those variables alone will greatly impede further upstream expansion and why southern big river systems are more prolific with flatheads than northern rivers. I believe nature will address the boundaries of expansion and different management measures could help better control the overall population while embracing a true trophy fishery that could add millions to state economies.

Like I've said multiple times on these two threads, labeling them invasive accomplishes nothing because it doesn't change angler behavior or address what the state considers to be a perceived problem.

[thmyorke1]

Thanks dakota, id like to imagine over 20 years, flatheads would be in the west branch if they wanted to. So it seems realistic they wont bother the trout

Not sure if 20 years is a long timeframe though, with their average life span being 20 years (from what I see online) it seems like it's still an early phase in their long future in the big D.

And LOL at the accidental stockings, if that's true

Just my opinion but if Flatheads were going to expand to the upper Delaware, especially the East and West branches, I think we'd already seen it happen to some degree. Just checked the water gauges for the West Branch which is running at 55° today. Water temperature in Phillipsburg is 78°. That is precisely why you won't see flatheads migrate much further up the Delaware than the Water Gap area. Water temps and habitat don't accommodate the environment they're looking for.

East and West branches of the Delaware are extremely cold so again flat heads are not going to be up there as those temperature ranges are not conducive to flatheads. I just don't see it happening in our lifetime but if it does it's going to be due to extreme warming of river temperatures which will pose more of a threat to the fabled trout fishery than flatheads ever will. You'd essentially have to see a complete change in the ecosystem of the river before flatheads venture that far north. Same reason that you don't see trout populations in the Philipsburg area.

Another fact for what it's worth is flat heads grow on average 3" a year so a 30" flat head is about a 10-year-old fish. I would bet the ranch that for the first three to four years of their life cycle there's more flat heads that fall victim to predatory fish than indigenous species that fall prey to larger flatheads. 5 or 6 years ago when a guy trolling in a row boat out of Dick Dow's at Lake Hopatcong caught a 36 lb muskie on a small Phoebe, when F&G examined that fish it had six 6" bullheads in its stomach. I would not be surprised that smaller flatheads are forage fish for walleye, smallmouths, muskies, channels, stripers and possibly even carp more than other indigenous species are forage fish for larger flatheads. My point is until they reach a certain size, they're not the apex predator in the system people think they are but more a vital addition to the forage base that other predators feast on.

[FASTEDDIE29]

Great catch and awesome magazine article Ken! Gotta love the Flatheads in the river. They kick some ass for sure!

[KenBeam]

Originally Posted by dakota560

Ken.....great story and trophy catch. Congratulations! Haven't met one flathead fisherman who wasn't stoked catching a fish of a lifetime. These fish are strong, top of the predator list and a challenge for anglers to catch since most are caught during nocturnal hours and it takes time, patience, the right tackle and the right location. You don't just drop a line in the water, it takes effort.

They're a prized fish and NJ and other states should embrace them as opposed to killing them. Every fishery has a natural order and food chain, flatheads are no different. Some fish are at the top of the food chain, some middle and some bottom. They don't seem to have hurt local fisheries in this area in big river systems. As Thmyorke1 mentioned in the other thread, small systems or lakes might be a different issue and I wouldn't propose introducing flatheads to these systems but big river systems with tons of forage fish and structure is where they belong and they will give the recreational angling community some of the best fishing opportunities in local waters to fight and land a true trophy. Personally I believe there's enough forage for them to co-exist with other species stocked or indigenous to the systems for flatheads to have a place in our waterways. Either way, they're not going away anytime soon so we might as well get used to their existence.

Since there's no stocking programs, these fish cost the state nothing. Pa runs tournaments every weekend for flatheads and it helps fuel the economy. Why can't NJ do the same? To anyone opposed to flatheads, how is stocking trout in musky infested waters any different than stocking walleye, small mouths or anything else in the Big D with flatheads. There's probably more trout killed every year from predator fish and cormorants in all the lakes and streams in NJ than there are forage fish by flatheads. Where do you draw the line?

Thanks very much. Glad you enjoyed it.

[KenBeam]

Originally Posted by FASTEDDIE29

Great catch and awesome magazine article Ken! Gotta love the Flatheads in the river. They kick some ass for sure!

Thanks very much Eddie! Really appreciate it.

[KenBeam]

Originally Posted by thmyorke1

Hell yea, Ken! You're famous

@Dakota thanks for sharing. I had questions. How long have flatheads been in the big D? Have they really grown to their limit in population numbers, or are they still spreading and growing to this day? Is this the most spread out they will become? Or will they not develop a thicker population in the upper stretches of the big D?
Maybe we are still in the beginning phase of their population in the Big D.

All I know, those flatheads dont stand a chance in the west branch Delaware, the fly anglers will rally their funds and efforts at any cost to get any predatory fish over 30 inches from their waters LOL. (I jk the trout scene there is incredible and respected!)

Thanks a lot partner!