Fluke Supply

[barbarian]

When a bind I have a couple old time suppliers for day caught fluke, in past couple weeks they have had none. I never saw it like this they said I wasn't worth going out, I didn't ask them to go into detail. Does anyone know if it's because the market value is low or they haven't shown up at the grounds. I figure they know exactly where they are at a given time of any time of year. It's weird I never seen them without, can anyone shed some discreet info?

[Gerry Zagorski]

Plenty of Fluke being caught, problem is they are mostly shorts/next years keepers...

[barbarian]

Thanks Gerry, I realize your point but I was in a crunch and needed fluke for a party. I normally go to a well known commercial fisherman with a family run retailer normally selling day caught fluke for $21.95 lb. He's had nothing the past three weeks. I never saw anything like it, I personally think he's catching but it's going to a higher bidder. I'm only speculating....

[NoLimit]

A blind man can see what’s going on- we are killing all the breeders and the males never get to 18”

[capspackle]

Originally Posted by NoLimit

A blind man can see what’s going on- we are killing all the breeders and the males never get to 18”

I feel the same. It should be keepers are 15 to 18" any thing 18" and larger
should be released.

[Togfather2530]

I wouldn’t say a lot of fish are being caught but most are short either. Maybe some experienced different results but I just fished Friday and Saturday Oceanside it was was hard to even get a bite period. Fishing sucked actually. I managed a few good fish in the river but my opinion is quite simple that the fluke are really not there

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

Plenty of Fluke being caught, problem is they are mostly shorts/next years keepers...

Gerry have to disagree with you on this one. This years recreational shorts will become this years commercial keepers or worse commercial discards tossed back dead as larger fish with higher catch values are retained. That's not conjecture, it's based on facts from NMFS's own data tables. Most fish won't make it to 18" plus inches and the smaller fish are being killed in the commercial harvest process. There's been a significant decrease in the summer flounder biomass, age classes 2 yrs and younger, when we should be seeing explosive growth. It's either recruitment being down which Mark Terceiro, Ph.D., lead fishery biologist for Northeast Fisheries Science Center "NEFSC", insists it's not other than the last six years (a position I vehemently disagree with which NMFS's own data tables support) or these age class fish are disappearing from the biomass for another reason. That reason, in my opinion, is they're being discarded due to lesser market values as average weight of commercial fish harvested over the last twenty years shows a substantial increase. This during a time when NMFS research states summer flounder are growing slower meaning the average age of fish being harvested by commercials is even older than the increase in average weight would suggest. An increase in 1/2 inch mess size does little to save smaller fish after being pulled through the water in a tow with the weight of the catch on them. In the latest stock assessment published this year for summer flounder, there's data illustrating discard rates on OBSERVED commercial trips for an entire year relative to unobserved trips. There's five years that stand out which show on average an almost 100% discard rate, highest year being 143%! So everyone understands what that means, if the boat retained 1,000 lbs of fish, they actually caught 2,430 lbs discarding 1,430 lbs. in the process while retaining only their legal daily quota with fish of greater value. How many of those fish are we expected to believe actually survived the rigors of those tows? The regulations are killing this fishery for recreational anglers. And our sacrifices are subsidizing the commercial harvest while they benefit from increased catch values based on today's market prices. $21.95 a lb. for summer flounder is off the charts ridiculous but it's a supply and demand reality. As bad as the last two decades have been with regulatory changes for the entire industry, recreational anglers have taken it on the chin far worse than commercial concerns when you consider the increase in market prices commercials are being compensated at. I'd argue there's more summer flounder killed in one commercial tow from dead discards than the number of keepers on a railed party boat harvested in an entire day. We should go back to 14" size limits for both commercial and recreational when the biomass experienced a 600% increase throughout the 90's. The current regulations not only make no sense, they're causing damage to the fishery that will take years to reverse once changes are made which for the time being aren't even a consideration. NMFS has this one completely wrong and has for the last 20-yrs.

As previously posted, commercial harvest of summer flounder in the 80's and 90's consisted 90% of fish ages 2-yrs and younger, a high percentage sexually immature fish. Today it's the exact opposite with arguably 90% or more of fish harvested being three years and older, all sexually mature fish. These are the fish recreational anglers are being forced to release under 18" for NJ and 19" for NY, Ct and RI while the smaller fish which were being retained in the 80's and 90's are now being tossed back with a high percentage presumably dead. Now someone explain how today's regulations are supporting a sustainable fishery and remember commercial quotas just received a 40% bump. All the science in the world couldn't explain or justify the decisions being made, what's been done is counter-intuitive to what should be done. That's the poor fishing we're seeing locally in my opinion and while fishing will improve on a relative basis over the next few months as more fish come in from the east, the fishery as a whole is declining.

[Togfather2530]

Nice post Dakota. Thanks for the informative information. Also I commend you guys who are up to par and following all this and are involved. Thank you for your interest and being a voice for the recreational fisherman. I admittedly have to many other interests and too much going on to focus on it that much. I will tell you the flounder fishing is shit and there quite simply isn’t the fish there. I do whole heartedly agree we are all destroying our own fishery with these bs regulations.

Originally Posted by Togfather2530

Nice post Dakota. Thanks for the informative information. Also I commend you guys who are up to par and following all this and are involved. Thank you for your interest and being a voice for the recreational fisherman. I admittedly have to many other interests and too much going on to focus on it that much. I will tell you the flounder fishing is shit and there quite simply isn’t the fish there. I do whole heartedly agree we are all destroying our own fishery with these bs regulations.

Lot of people are working hard to address the failing health of this fishery and disproportionate allocation of the resource. What I mean by disproportionate allocation, commercial in my estimation has access to harvest between 35 - 40% more of the existing biomass than recreational because of the disparity of being able to retain 14" fish relative to 18" for NJ and 19" for NY, Ct and RI even though they're harvesting larger fish than historically. Defeats the entire purpose of a 14" minimum size limit to mitigate dead discard which has clearly not happened. Recreational community can catch 14" - 18" / 19" fish, have to release them so commercials harvest them and to add insult to injury we're penalized 35% for discard mortality, a mortality rate I believe to be significantly higher than actual. Add to that a 60/40 allocation of annual catch quotas in favor of commercial concerns coupled with the 40% increase in their quota this year relative to status quo for the recreational community based on a speculative new means of quantifying historical recreational catch through MRIP and we're getting the proverbial short end of the stick.

Commercial landings (catch which is retained) based on scientific published data or best available science in the stock assessment shows a 96% decline in the harvest of age class summer flounder 2 yrs and younger between the years 1982 and 2012. Basically those younger smaller fish are no longer being harvested commercially yet their population of the biomass between the same period has declined by 45%. It should be exploding higher. That is a statistically material and staggering relationship moving in the wrong direction. WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS AGE CLASS OF FISH WHICH MAKES UP 61% OF THE OVERALL PUBLISHED BIOMASS IN 2012, last year this level of detail was provided for.

Remember based on NEFSC's lead scientist Mark Terceiro, recruitment wasn't declining so where are all these fish going. If NMFS's position is recruitment is not down, the ONLY plausible explanation is there being killed off and I don't for a second believe natural mortality or predation is the reason. If it is, conduct a study and prove it. Average 100% dead discard in five years on observed trawls is a much more believable explanation. These fish are being killed commercially in the process of harvesting larger fish with greater catch values. If there's a more plausible explanation, someone needs to disclose it because the data doesn't support the findings or conclusions.

In my opinion, the only way we change the management of this fishery is by challenging their own data with inconsistencies or relationships which have radically changed or make no sense. That's where the battle needs to be fought if there's any chance nursing the fishery back to health. Introducing new data is not practical or even an option. This fishery thrived for 13 years between 1989 and 2002 and has been on a steady decline over the last 17 years. The answer is in the data but being ignored. Million dollar question is will fishery management ever make the necessary changes to revive the fishery or pass the buck and continue hiding behind the provisions of the Magnuson-Stevens Act enacted 43-yrs ago.

[barbarian]

Found a new guy today and I asked him about it. He tells me I could just be simple economics and costs are overrunning him. He charges $21.95 lb day boat fluke.

As for rec guys it's just to early there's plenty of fluke. For commercial guys the only thing holding them up is rough seas other wise they just scrape them up no matter what water temps are far down below.