Blackfish leader shy?
 

I was reading the reports here and was drawn to the words of capt Bobby from the OE.. He stated in his report that the guys that did best on a recent tog trip used light leaders... In all the years I have been blackfishing that was something I had never heard. I was under the impression from years of fishing articles, years of fishing with great captains and great tog fishermen as well as personal experience that blackfish pretty much disregarded the leader.. I mean after all, they bite barnacles and mussles off of tangled wreckage, cables, and root small crabs from jumbled rocks covered in old fishing line.... I remember the days when blackfish hooks came with leaders made from tarred Cuttyhunk, and they worked great..

Has anyone found better fishing for tog when fishing light leaders?

I have used 50 Lb mono for years for my bottom rigs, including tog, but Capt Bobbys statement has me thinking about going to 30 lb Flouro... I am out of the loop being so far away, and the fishing has changed a lot since I left NJ.. The pressure is relentless compared to what I knew 25 years ago.
Maybe thats part of the reason why my bottom fishing trips past few years have been pretty uneven.. Never really thought that a mono leader would spook bottom fish, but I certainly would never argue with a very good head boat skipper. He sees more blackfish caught in one good day, than I have caught in my entire life.. I would love to hear some opinions /experiences... bob

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Yesmostly the leader going to hook im a youngin when it comes to blackfish as ive only been fishing hard for them say for the past 5yrs and i have experienced this a handfull of time where we went down to like 15lb floro...you may loose more hooks but if thats what makes you hook fish or get bites thats what i will do. works for all species really. If i go through a few patterns while striper fishing next thing i do is drop leader if nothing again drop it again it can make a huge difference when the tough times are upon you!

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

It matters at times... but I believe the bait being used (i.e. white vs green crabs, etc.) plays a bigger role... I would hate to lose a pool fish bc I was using a lite leader.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I would NEVER go below #30 in the ocean. If I want light tackle togs ill hit the canal. However, on days when the bite is very sluggish amd there are only a few guys catching, pay attention to what theyre doing. I personally had a monster break off on #40 and was ripping a locked drag. This was in my early blackfishing, only been at it 6yrs, but after then I upgraded verything to #60 mono for my leaders and top shot. I have been out on slow days but it was slow for everyone. There are a lot of things I would change before I downgraded my leader. Id change bait, how I hook the bait, how I cut the bait, my hooks, my weight, my rod, my shoes, my boxers, etc... Before I drop down in leader size cause whenthat JUMBO comes along I want to be sure I have enough juice to bring him up. Im not saying it wont make a difference but FOR ME, I will stick to the big stuff. Getting caught with leader too light is like getting caught with your pants down running backwards through a cactus farm!!:eek:

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Don't matter what leader your using if the captain is putting a select group over a small piece.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

It's my opinion that if you use a light leader(below 30lb) you'll probably only bring in the little ones. First of all it's also my opinion that flourocarbon leader material is a must and that a minimum of 40 lb leaders are a must. If you think that a 15 lb leader will bring in that 20 plus pounder we all dream about, then you really are dreaming.........

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Been fishing all my life. One thing I know for sure. When the bite it difficult you pull out all the stops. I certainly have seen line shy fish no matter what the species .

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I'm no expert my any means but I know I would rather lose the bite of smaller fish than lose a big one to a broken leader. Last year I had a slob break my 40# top shot because I panicked and slid my drag up. I hear about that, not only from the Captain, but also from guys I don't even know.

The last two days I fished on a non-sponsor the mate and Captain were talking about their 25# rigs. I was just shaking my head. Captain said something like, it's cheaper to lose a hook than a sinker and a hook? I just kept using my 50# rigs. Caught 5 fish on thurs. & 6 only Friday. (No one else had a limit) Had plenty of shorts to toss back too. And only lost 3 rigs to the bottom.

Thursday I watched 3 fish break off at the hook and Friday a bigger fish was lost with the hook breaking off.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Im totally with ya Ron. I lock it all the way down and back off once halfway+ up. Only thing is I will add a 40# breakaway loop for the sinker. Id rather lose the sinker on a big fish than miss the bite of a smaller fish

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

when chafed flouro gives off a flash correct? be great if tog swim in sand, minds well add a spin n glo & squid skirt. i use 50lb leader & chafed off a pig yesterday. contacted 2 of the best toggers i know about it & they both said they use 65-80 for there hooks. i don't care about catching a limit i want big fish. bullet if i was you just go with 50lb leader material...... but what do i know

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I always used 50 lb plain mono, and never had problems, but also never caught anything bigger than about 9-10 pounds..
I was merely thinking more about the "line shy" concept.. Not the chaffing so much.
I know tuna types, weaks, stripers, even blues or fluke at times can be line shy, as well as fresh water fish, but never thought much about it for tog or other bottom fish.. I just figured they are around and eat off of tangled crap each and every day, and most of the reefs and wrecks they inhabit are probably covered in fishing line.. However, far be it from me to disregard what a very well respected party boat captain says about it, and he feels lighter leaders helped some of his fares to catch more fish.. .. I dunno, next time out I will just stick to my 50 lb mono and see what happens,,, I usually ok with tog , but now I am thinking maybe I am "missing the boat", by not using 30 lb flouro leaders... bob

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I asked Capt Chad, Tagged Fish if Tog are line shy on Sunday after reading this post and his answer was "absolutely". Some days it matters more then others and some days it does not.

They use 50lb on his boat.

He also stated that "most likely" you will break off a big fish (10+)? with 40lb leader or less.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Looks like the jury is still out on this one. Either way one thing I know to be true is the more confident you are in the way you're fishing (your style) the more fish you will catch. So if you like 50mono fish it if you like 30 flouro fish it. The only time to change what you are doing is when you are not catching and other are.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Curious.
It you're using a "rig" wouldn't that matter more than the line its attached to?

Makes sense they "see" the line coming out of their crab a lot closer up than the main line / shock line(with braid).

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I always thought this is bizarre with Toggers.

Why do most use rediculuously high 65lb braid with a 30 lb leader or 30lb rig line? I'm pretty sure NO ONE uses rigs tied with 50lb but for cod fishermen.

Besides the leader or the rig will pop just over 30 pounds anyway?

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

the guys i fish with use at least 50lb leader & alot fish mono straight.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I think the reason for heavy braid is that it loses much of its strength when it chafes, which can easily happen togging.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

that's why these fish are so great to fish for,everyday is different.some thread some mono all with different takes.my two cents is use what gives you confidence and practice on waiting for the right bite.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

No right or wrong answer here. It comes down to what your are use to and confident in. Stelli fishes 50 pound Ande mono on his reel. All of his rigs are tied with 50-lb test ande leader and up from their when fishing in MD. Puts on a 12 ounce sinker and he is good to go regardless of condition. He knows exactly how his rod reacts on the bite with this set up as that is what he is use to and catches just as good or better than most.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

rumor has it he catches only dogfish now

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Don't mean to get this thread off track but a lot of old schoolers here that fish mono instead of braid...

What are opinions on this??

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Brit you? Tennis :D

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

For you? Tennis :D

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I fish 65 braid to 50lb top-shot with 50lb hook leader. If you've ever busted off a slob you'd go to 50lb.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Many of the better tog fisherman and Pin hookers use mono. Most tog fisherman fish a tight lines and graphite rods. When you add braid to the equation, you now have no stretch. Not a good thing. In reality everyone talks about I want my rod to be super sensitive, as I want to feel every little bite. Well guess what to much sensitivity in my opinion is a bad thing. if you can feel everything the fish can also feel the same thing. When he feels that resistance being you have no stretch or belly in the line he will back off your bait most of the times and not finish off the crab or give you the right bite to swing at unless they are heavy on the chew. If fishing braid you need to fish it properly and add some top shot of mono I like about 18-20 ft. The reason for using such a long leader is that monofilament is thicker in diameter and also has more buoyancy than braid, so it creates a belly in line. I also like fishing a more parabolic rod when fishing braid to give me some extra cushion when that big fish starts bouncing. you will loose allot less big fish from pulling hooks by fishing with braid and fast action rods if you fish it in this manner listed above.

When fishing straight mono a medium to fast rod that shuts off mid way is probably is better suited for mono fishing as the line provides the cushion you are looking for.
Fishing with a belly in your line causes you to fish with slack in your line.
While slack line probably goes against everything you’ve read that says fish with tight lines, my experience has shown that a belly in the line means less resistance in the line, so the fish does not feel the resistance and will not back off the crab and give you something to swing at. On certain days, blackfish shy away from resistance in the line, and the bite is touchy. That is when those guys that fish straight mono seem to catch while others are just stroking it. Aslo on bad weather days with big seas I have seen the mono guys outfish the braid guys as they are able to keep their sinkers from bouncing all over the place.
My preference is 50 pound braid with 20 ft 50lb mono shock leader where I then tie my rig of preference on my Austrailian old school fiberglass rod.
I have gone back to a mono set up on occasions in the last 2 years. I am not as confident as I am with my set up above but have put extra fish in the box with mono under certain conditions. Fished one day last year on 17 in some crappy conditions with my buddy. We both fished our regular braid setups and he dead sticked his mono rod. We both caught OK that day but the deadstick mono rod outfished us both.

There is really no right or wrong answer to many of these questions. What is the best rod, braid, mono, rig, size hook, size braid, size mono for blackfishing. Talk to ten guys and you will get ten different answers. What it comes down to is being confident in your setup and understanding the bite and when to swing. Most guys swing way to much. It is not by accident that guys that put the better catches together and catch the bigger fish have confidence in their setups and can interpret what is going on with their tackle and have developed the touch to swing on the right bite. This is not something you can learn by reading an article or post. It comes down to putting your time in at the rail and keeping an open mind and watching what the guys are doing on a specific day. Once you think you have it all figured out and you think you are the Man the Buck Tooth Bandit will totally change thing on your next trip and put you to shame. That is just one reason that they keep us coming back and have us fishing in the middle of the winter in some pretty shitty conditions. The Challenge of figuring out the bite is what keeps us coming back for more punishment and new lessons to be learned.

With that being said Gerry you should stick to your day job and running fishing website and leave the catching to the 20% of fisherman that catch 80% of the Fish or even better ask the wife for a new set of golf clubs for Christmas lol.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Alot of great answers on this one. Recurring theme, fish with what you are confident with. I use 50lb braid, 60#mono topshot and leader, with 40# breakway loop for the sinker. Yes sometimes I break off at the braid and have to retie a topshot, and yes sometimes I lose a sinker when heavier leader may have brought it up. But as others have stated, breakoff a big one and you wont go light again. Great points by Alex, good luck on saturday btw, and the thing with braid is you want to leave that small belly in the line and you WILL still feel the bite, but you will have plenty of power to set the hook and, hopefully, get the fish off the bottom. I will change a lot of things before I change leader, but if you notice a difference it would help to adapt. That being said again there is no right or wrong and the only way to maybe become good at blackfishing, is to go blackfishing.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

i think braids really helpful when fish are deeper but when you have a big swell its harder to keep that belly in the line

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Starting this year I switched from using braid with a #50 topshot then #40 leader material to tie my hooks, to now using straight mono #30 with #30 leader material for hooks! I have to be honest I noticed that roll more fish now then with braid but for what ever reason I feel the tog bite so much better! Maybe I'm gaining sensitivity by having less knots in the line or maybe they don't notice the line because it's thinner! Whatever the reason I'm gonna stay with mono and lighter line!

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I'm reading a lot of good responses here and it seems that everyone has one or more setups for catching tog that they're comfortable with regarding main line types, top shot lengths, leader material, what pound test they're comfortable with, etc. The main topic of Bulletbob's post was whether or not tog are line shy and if there's an advantage to using flourocarbon leader material at the hook versus mono. I have switched to using flourocarbon for my rigs as recommended to me by guys who swear by it and produce fish, but I have seen some big tog taken on straight mono by fishermen as well. Is it worth it to spend the extra dough on the flouro, or is using mono at the hook just as effective?

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I had always heard that when flouro gets chafed it gives off a shine underwater? is that true or an old wives tale?

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I'm not sure but I will tell you Friday when I hopefully see you on the Mimi or Sat at the PUOSU I have been fishing 40lb mono getting a good bite for the most part but losing hooks and sinkers. I just tied a bunch of new rigs yesterday with 40lb flouro so I can see what I prefer I think the flouro will be better for a number of reasons. One less hook loss. Two more abrasion resistant. Three considering its a little stiffer less tangles to main line and will keep bait further from the sinker. Then again these suckers are in my head :eek: I need to figure them out. Any help would be appreciated. I've only fished for them for a few years. I'm getting better but I still haven't dialed it in. I would like to have some explain to me the right bite. I pretty much seeing at everything :eek: I'm a swinger baby!!!

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

why i like Mono with the braid you feel ERRYTHING but the mono you know when to swing

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Interesting observation there Murr.... With my style of fishing (cant resist swinging at most everything) I might have to string a pole up with mono and give it a shot. Either that or like Alex said, make my top shot longer.

I guess I could try and be more patient if I'm using braid but somehow I don't think that's going to work out too well.... I just can't help myself :)

Great thread going here.... Very informative, except of whatever comes off Joey The Fishes keyboard :)

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

like Sunday we had alot of bergalls around & a huge swell so braid was so sensitive the sinker bouncing & bergalls with swell felt like tog. 50lb mono i knew when it was a tog versus a bergall & the giant swell. I still have an outfit with braid & on a day with a scratchy bite in deeper water it is def the way to go but while we are in water under 70ft im sticking with the mono

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I used to be able to catch tog, now I'm just a hack.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I have been chasing, studying and catching these rubber lipped critters since 1976 :eek:..... There is no doubt in my mind that these fish are line shy. Flouro helps. Especially on those tough days. Take a close look at the keen eyeball of a blackfish. Go online and watch the BIG ONES eyeball the scene and bait before they approach. You will see them turn their head and give it the O'l one eye staredown. I also prefer to fish mono and with braid will use extremely long topshot whenever conditions permit. Another tip....take the shine off your pretty sinkers !!! Every little bit helps. The other thing I do not like for togging is the crappy lead we are running into. Sinkers are much harder and have a "ting" to them much different than the old soft "quiet" lead.

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I know this isn't right on topic, but next question is... if using straight mono, do you use a different stiffer rod setup?

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Pardon the interruption in the thread here but the million dolllar question is are you (Bobby) and the things fishing round 2 PUOSU? All 3 of you qualified and I need to know by Wednesday please....

Sorry and back to our regularly scheduled programming. ;)

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

Old wives tale for sure ! Some monos do conduct light I'd worry more about that then anything with fluoro !

Re: Blackfish leader shy?
 

I must say this is the most informative thread I have had the pleasure of being part of. Thanks guy I still need someone to explain to me the right bite. What it consists of cause I a swinger baby :D