Flounder
 

20 or so years ago flounder fishing was great in shark river. Just moved back to NJ and I'm curious if it still exists?

Re: Flounder
 

Yes but it is usually better in the Fall. Nowhere is all that great anymore as flounder fishing has been declining for decades.

Re: Flounder
 

Same in the Navesink and Shrewsbury rivers too..

Most of the Flounder being caught these days are out on the deep wrecks in the Mudhole and in the middle of the summer too..

Not a lot of participation in the fishery either since the limit is 2 @ 12 inches so most are fishing for them while deep wreck fishing for other species..

Re: Flounder
 

Winter flounder stock not rebounding.Even with 2 fish limit for years.Any thoughts.

Re: Flounder
 

Commercial dragging and habitat deterioration. Silting and dredging of inlets to access back bay habitat severely impact migration routes. Add to that commercial dragging and you have a recipe for disastrous fall out of a species.

I get them from shore in the way back of the Raritan Bay, but its pain-staking.

Re: Flounder
 

Maybe a one fish limit will rebound an inshore fishery dead for decades in NJ? Better yet... we bring one with us and throw it in. LOL

Re: Flounder
 

In the early 80's the summer flounder fishery collapsed. To compensate for quota cuts made by fisheries management, commercial concerns with multi species permits set their sites on other species including winter flounder. Fishery has never been the same with current catch and stock levels about 10 - 15% of 80's levels. There are inshore habitat issues due mostly to continued over development as mentioned earlier, but that's not what caused a four decade decline. For all practical purposes, winter flounder (especially the SNE/MA stock) is an exclusive commercial fishery today with only occasional incidental recreational catches on deep water mudhole trips as by-catch while targeting other species. In the below charts, look at the increase in commercial harvest in the 80's and the associated decline in recruitment (60 million to 5 million) between 1980 and 2010.

Following charts reflect what occurred with catch, recruitment, spawning stock biomass and the fishery in general over the last four decades. Rest is history. No different than ling, whiting, cod, mackerel, weakfish and many other fisheries. You get the picture.

If you want to understand fishery management perspectives, read the following excerpt from the last winter flounder stock assessment in 2017:

The winter flounder commercial fishery was once a highly productive industry with annual harvest up to 40.3 million pounds. Since the early 1980's, landings have steadily declined. Total commercial landings of all three stocks combined (Gulf of Maine "GOM", SNE/MA and Georges Banks "GBK") dipped to 3.5 million pounds in 2010. Commercial landings have risen since 2010 due to increased quotas in 2011 and 2012 in the GOM stock, and the lifting of the SNE/MA moratorium in 2013 by NOAA. States, however, have maintained a restrictive commercial trip limit of 50 pounds and a recreational bag limit of two fish in state waters of SNE/MA.

Stock Status: The 2017 GOM operational stock assessment indicates overfishing is not occurring and the stock biomass is unknown. However, biomass reference points remain unknown and overfished status cannot be determined. The 2017 SNE/MA operational stock assessment indicates the stock is overfished, but overfishing is not occurring.

Stock and landings are down 85% - 90% since the 80's, yet overfishing is not occurring. How can a governing body tasked with managing a resource use the phrase "overfishing is not occurring and the stock biomass is unknown" simultaneously? The statements are mutually exclusive. Fail to understand their perspective. Stock assessments and the associated results are the report card of the effectiveness of policy decisions. How these statistics are overlooked or ignored at the detriment of a once thriving and valuable fishery is inexcusable. Lot of resources are committed to the collection of data representing "best available science". How that effort results in these policy decisions and essentially the ruination of an important fishery which thrived for years is the question anyone with half a brain should be asking.

Re: Flounder
 

I have read that Cormorants swallow small ones down one after the other, non stop.. LOTS and lots of cormorants out there these days.. Wonder if they might be a factor??? bob

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Bob hope all is well. I've seen Commorants coming up with one flounder after another in the back of Shark River. Fish ranging in size from keepers to postage stamps. Are they a contributing factor to the decline of flounder and every inshore species, I would have to think they are. But recruitment levels declining 90% annually from 60 million to 5 million, the associated destruction of another spawning stock biomass (same as what were experiencing in the summer flounder fishery) in addition to skyrocketing catch levels in the '80s that weren't managed properly are the key drivers causing the demise of this fishery.

Re: Flounder
 

Back in the day, the flounder caught in the west end of the Raritan bay would be gorged to the point of expelling clam necks all over the boat. Commercial clamming in that end of the bay has removed much of the clam since then. No food ...no fish.

Re: Flounder
 

I remember that very well.. I lived in Union Beach for 2 years around 81-83..
We used to catch massive flounder, and 2 things would spill out of them.. Clam necks and corn from all the guys chumming for them with corn in those days...bob

Re: Flounder
 

Take a cruise around the bayshore rivers,creeks and estuaries.More cormorats,osprys,eagles and other birds that would make an easy meal out of a flounder.Never mind the overabundance of the endangered dogfish,harbor seals and the biggest culprit... The Striped Bass...they suck them off the bottom like candy

Re: Flounder
 

You know, never thought of that.. Stripers love small flounder.. Years and years ago, they were prime bait for few guys in the know.

.The resurgence of Stripers to an extent has coincided with the demise of flounder in the same waters... A possible factor?.. Probably, but as you stated, a proliferation of other predators that simply were not around 30-40 years ago as well....Doesn't look good for winter flounder short term, thats for certain.... bob

Re: Flounder
 

Thanks Dakota.Unbelievable.What a disgrace.

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Fish are still there guys a know fishing shark River still getting a lot of fish but with not a lot of people attempting the 2 fish limit it’s not a hot topic.

Re: Flounder
 

Ha ha ha!

Re: Flounder
 

I think this has something to do with it... Years ago when Stripers weren't as plentiful we had a lot of Flounder around. The other thing I seem to remember each year was when the Stipers showed up the flounders left the area.

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Sorry Capt, but fished there several times this Fall and the days of alot of fish are gone.... Each year I see less and less caught in Shark River.... Not going to say there are not some fish there, but there are very few days if any when someone will catch more than a hand full of fish....

Re: Flounder
 

It’s been my observation (& shared by a few others I have spoken to) that Super Storm Sandy had a dramatic impact on the clams beds of not only Raritan Bay but Romer Shoals and the False Hook Bar. Ever since then the spring stripers bite on clams has been nearly non existent. So I’m assuming the lack of clam forge has also effected the winter flounder population.

Re: Flounder
 

See, I recall that when the yellow eyed demon bluefish showed up is when the flounder made their mass exodus out of the bay. Then you’d get them at The Cedars for about 2 weeks before they were totally gone.

Re: Flounder
 

First couple of blues caught in Cliffwood was always the end of the spring run of flounder. Can't say I blame them. One observation at the time of their demise was, nearly all of the Party boats from AT fished the rivers, Port Monmouth flats , the Cedars etc in the spring.. Then all of a sudden the marquis read " Jumbo Bay Flounder" and they were all over the west end collectively pulling hundereds of egg laden females a day. It was only 2 years later that the decline hastened.
My personal hotspot was destroyed when the Keyport harbor channel was dredged. The South flats were barren from then on.

Re: Flounder
 

I grew up fishing Sandy Hook, Shark River and the Manasquan River for winter flounder. Every year in the '70s early to mid '80s those bodies of water were absolutely paved with flounder ranging in sizes from small to jumbos. You could follow the schools as they came out of the mud to drop their eggs and start they're migration from the bays to the inlets or ocean and begin their offshore migration east. In the Atlantic Highlands, the start of the season was marked by the party boats fishing around the Quay, back bays areas and flats. Then you'd follow the schools as they started schooling up and moving out. Channels, areas around Earle, then it moved closer to the mussel beds at Flynn's Knoll and Roamers Shoals and as Skolman mentioned they poured into the ocean staging at the Cedars for a few weeks to feed up before their long journey offshore. You could catch all the jumbo flounder and big ling you wanted at the Cedars for a few weeks before the blue fish and stripers showed and the flounder immediately headed for Dodge. That was the ritual every year, year in year out, and it wouldn't be unusual to catch 40 or 50 flounder in a day's time from shore without using chum. Like the ling and whiting fishery, fast forward to the late 80's when the commercial fishery started targeting winter flounder after the summer flounder fishery crashed. All you need to do is look at catch levels in the 80's and 90's, larger species were targeted offshore, spawning stock was destroyed, recruitment went from 60 million new fish introduced into the stock every year to less than 5 million today and a biomass crashed. That fishery has been irreparably damaged and it's not coming back. We're staring down the barrel of a gun right now with the same thing happening to the summer flounder fishery and for those of you that don't think that's possible believe me nobody thought the winter flounder fishery could be destroyed in the 60's, 70's and early to mid 80's but it was. No one believed even more so the ling and whiting fishery that we had which was absolutely off the charts incredible could be destroyed and it was as well. Both of these fisheries were destroyed within a relatively short period of time. With the technology in place back then and even more so today, it only takes a few years to wipe out a stock and decades for it to recover, if it's even at all possible.

Re: Flounder
 

Shark river was a great flounder nursery .
With over 95% of it filled in with road dust from the storm water systems of all the local malls it can’t recover .
Only way would be if they dredged the entire estuary , and that’s not happening , they barely care about keeping the channels open .

.
Cause and effect plain and simple

Re: Flounder
 

This was what 1980's? You'd have to catch them on an industrial scale daily to do that.

The whiting disappeared up here too and so did the weakfish.

Migration patterns change. Whoever heard of large Drum in RB? Or the yearly visit and spotting of a huge Sturgeon that no one fishes for. But there's not 1000's of Sturgeon either.

Nature has a cycle.

Even crabbing up north in Shrewsbury and Navesink Rivers stunk the last two seasons with smaller crabs all season long.

We can blame the Evil Commercial Empire as they are convenient scape goats on a Rec fisherman site. But that is very suspect too.

Re: Flounder
 

I'll agree with that when it comes to flounder.. However it was commercials that destroyed the Whiting/Mackerel/Weakfish, no doubt in my mind.. I still recall the pound nets in Raritan Bay killing untold numbers of spawning Weakfish every year, until they were pretty much gone...

Flounder had more issues than just commercial pressure, and yes, we recs took WAY too many back in the 80's... I too recall when the party boats abandoned the rivers back in the day, and I was right in the middle of them in shallow water in Union Beach where I lived at the time, not 1/4 off the beach in my 12 foot rowboat, everyone catching massive blackbacks, until they were gone too.. Once the rivers were not producing flounder it should have set off alarm bells.. It didn't.. They just went to where there were still fish to be caught... until there weren't... No it wasn't all commercial guys, we recs did plenty of damage too.. However, they are at least as complicit as we are for the bad situation we are in with flounder, and are certainly the main cause of the disappearance of other species... bob

Re: Flounder
 

The Belford Pirates were dragging nets all over the bay. When they got caught they got a slap on the wrist. That is exterminating a flounder species . To blame it on hook and line fishing from PB boats is not true. Years ago when i chartered i got one month of flounder in before bass fishing. It paid for the slip and insurance. All the for hire boats got hurt by this and the decimation of our Whiting fishery. You can thank the Belford Pirates for that also.

Re: Flounder
 

What Captain Sal said - there is no way that recreational fishing ever decimated any fishery

Re: Flounder
 

That’s not totally correct .
Recreational fisherman really abused the winter flounder fishery .
Tons of boats catching garbage cans full after filling a cooler in the hay day .
We all thought it was an endless flow of fish .

Second one is striped bass , killing millions of breeders when they are stacked up laden with roe , and easy pickings .
.

NO fish should be targeted during their spawn .
Sadly that’s when winter flounder and striped bass get fished the hardest

Re: Flounder
 

Hey Dan to i have to FACT CHECK YOU LOl First of all Whiting spawn like every other fish. Winter Flounder spawn in the spring? So we we shouldn't fish for them in the Spring. Blues spawn in the Summer??? Shut that down also. Stripers spawn in the Spring so shut that down also. When do Tuna, Tilefish ,Makos ,Theshers etc. spawn? Sea Bass go off shore and spawn in the winter along with porgies??? No more off shore PB fishing. We all want to protect the stocks and protect the future of all species but at what cost? If we do what you want there would be no need for your charter boat or any for hire boat and who would buy a private boat??? Comments welcome but let all o0f us keep them civil! We are all entitled to our opinion and this one is just mine. Other than that it is 82degrees and sunny here in Florida LOL

Re: Flounder
 

I know I am in the minority here but the concept of killing a spawning female really is just a feel good idea. Whether you kill it in Jan or July a dead fish cannot reproduce. The only fishery that has responded to regulations in my opinion is the Striped Bass and they were banned from commercial harvest. Granted I am not a scientist but it seems obvious what needs to be done if indeed we want to see a rebound in stocks of any species.

Re: Flounder
 

FYI we restricted the destruction of Striped Bass by commercial netters period!

Re: Flounder
 

Let’s assume you are correct. If so why after 20 years of zero recreational landings of winter flounder is there still no winter flounder... except in the commercial fish markets at $20/lb???

Go ahead. We will wait for your response

Re: Flounder
 

.

There is very little flounder coming from NJ draggers of that catch .
Guys that commercially fished for them don’t anymore .
Also why the ones that do get a premium price for it .

It sucks that fishery is gone , it was out spring kick off .
But anyone who thinks that we didn’t hurt that fishery didn’t fish it all those good years .
.
Coolers weren’t big enough for the catches , so even guys fishing in a tin boat were using garbage cans .

Fishery hasn’t been shut down 20 years either , been shut down to 2 fish for little over 10 .
.
Very few guys now fish for them at that limit , but I would hope the bay fishery has come back some .

Fishery in shark river will never come back due to the whole area being silted in .
99% of the areas we fished there are full of parking lot dust .

Re: Flounder
 

.
Wish it was 82 here Sal , tired of winter already .
I totally understand we want to fish when a species is here ,. And for us many of those are catchable only in the window they are spawning . So of course we want to fish .
.
But it also is when those fish ball up the most and are easiest to hurt .
.
I always would have liked to see striped bass a C/R fishery until May 1. By that time most eggs would be dropped .

Sure those same fish could be caught full of eggs in the fall .
But when they are within days of dropping millions of eggs it just makes no sense to be killing them by the thousands .
..

Re: Flounder
 

My take on what caused the winter flounder stock to flatline. Look at the attached landings levels between commercial and recreational. Plot those numbers against the decline in the spawning stock. Like Sal mentioned, the inshore flounder fishery typically came down to a month or less of fishing. Almost no one fished for flounder in the fall when they arrived from their offshore summering grounds. During the winter, the fish are in the mud and infrequently feed unless you have warm days and an incoming tide when a few might come out of the mud to feed. You could see the mud all over their white side. Very few fish were harvested during the fall and winter months.

In the spring when water temperatures rose, the fish would come out of the mud, females would drop their eggs and fish would school up and start feeding heavy in anticipation of their easterly migration to their summering ground. That's when most recreational fish were harvested and the duration was somewhere between 4 - 6 weeks max. The duration between females coming out of the mud and dropping eggs was probably 2 weeks. One weekend females would have full egg sacks, following weekend they were all empty.

While I agree recreational daily harvest limits were too high, I don't believe a fishery which really amounted to 4 - 6 weeks out of the year with a very small window harvesting egg laden females ruined a fishery. Rec's harvested the same way throughout the 70's and 80's and the fishery was as strong as ever throughout those decades. Did we contribute, you have to agree we did. Did inshore habitat issues effect the spawn, you have to think they might have. Did predation (seals, cormorants etc.) have an impact, probably but they weren't nearly as prolific back then as they are today.

Winter flounder can live for 15 - 18 years and females can lay in excess of 3 million eggs annually. If you look at the spawning stock chart, SSB went from 50 million pounds around 1981 to 15 million pounds over the next seven or eight years, a 70% decline in 7 - 8 years. Look at commercial landings, not to mention the levels of discards they must have operated at, over that time frame. Commercial is a year round fishery, not 4 - 6 weeks. Whether females are harvested coming out of the mud in the spring or any time throughout the year, the net result is less females and mature breeders in the biomass. Again larger older age classes representing the future of the fishery. Fisheries can't sustain that pressure and that's what happened to the winter flounder fishery.

Look at the attached pic, it's from an article that appeared in the Asbury Park Press. Note the comments in the article from the following link by Willie Egerter, owner / Captain of the Dauntless.

https://www.app.com/story/sports/out...ttom/14759557/

In the early 80's, I had a night trip aboard a friends boat chunking bass in Raritan Bay. We couldn't find bunker so we went over to Belford to see if any boats were off loading. They were, I'll never forget this. The guy took me inside the freezers they use to store fish. There had to be 20 of the large heavy corrugated containers they use for off loads (probably four feet high each) and every one was loaded with the largest winter flounder I've ever seen in my life other than maybe fish seen from the Gulf of Maine stock in Nova Scotia. Fish had to average 4 - 5 lbs, they were absolutely huge. I turned to my friend and said, there goes another fishery. My guess is they were harvested from the mudhole area. Where they were harvested doesn't matter, the fact they were harvested with obviously larger species being targeted does. Again it's the same story being told over and over. If you kill the breeders, you kill recruitment and by default you kill the fishery. That's what happened to the winter flounder stock. Pollution, climate change, predation didn't kill this fishery. A year round harvest commercially, total tonnage harvested and the targeting of older age higher market value breeders took this fishery down within 6 - 7 years. No different than what's currently happening with the summer flounder stock.

When I was growing up and the fishery was healthy, every summer the bottom was paved in Shark River with juvenile winter flounder. There were so many it looked like the bottom was moving around the floating docks at Fisherman's Den. No more, they're gone because recruitment today is less than 10% of what it was in the 70's and 80's. I assure you that didn't happen from recreational anglers fishing maybe 6 weeks out of an entire season.

Re: Flounder
 

That chart shows about 100,000 lbs in recreational landings and I dont believe that for a minute. Half of that would have to be in the NY metro area and we are lucky to think that it has been even 1000 lbs. After this Covid BS, I dont believe and govt stats.

Re: Flounder
 

Whether it's 100,000 lbs., 75,000 lbs., or 125,000 lbs. I'm not sure. What I am sure of and what the chart shows is what once was a vibrant robust fishery for the recreational angler is for all practical purposes gone and what's left is almost exclusively commercial and even then a shadow of what it once was.

Re: Flounder
 

Re: Flounder
 

I ran my charters out of shark river 1988 to mid 1990's and the flounder fishing there was crap then too. That's over 30 years ago it stunk too.

Same as the whiting fishing going to shit in NJ dating back to last century.

Same as inshore Boston Mackeral fishing in the Spring and even in Barnie.

Same as the north NJ weakfishing going to shit too for decades now.


SERIOUSLY:
The good old days for all these fish are an old man's memories of his childhood. And were they actually all that good? Remember... Whiting in the 1960's off of Long Branch pier with pops in January? Eight fish then look like 60 now. LOL

Re: Flounder
 

When I was growing up and the fishery was healthy, every summer the bottom was paved in Shark River with juvenile winter flounder. There were so many it looked like the bottom was moving around the floating docks at Fisherman's Den. No more, they're gone because recruitment today is less than 10% of what it was in the 70's and 80's. I assure you that didn't happen from recreational anglers fishing maybe 6 weeks out of an entire season.[/QUOTE]


I also remember the days in shark river were your killie and crab traps always had juvenile winter flounder in them. Then when fishing for summer flounder you would always find juvenile winter flounder in their stomachs or they'd be puking them up all over the boat in the river. No more!!