Fluke Supply
 

When a bind I have a couple old time suppliers for day caught fluke, in past couple weeks they have had none. I never saw it like this they said I wasn't worth going out, I didn't ask them to go into detail. Does anyone know if it's because the market value is low or they haven't shown up at the grounds. I figure they know exactly where they are at a given time of any time of year. It's weird I never seen them without, can anyone shed some discreet info?

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Plenty of Fluke being caught, problem is they are mostly shorts/next years keepers...

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Thanks Gerry, I realize your point but I was in a crunch and needed fluke for a party. I normally go to a well known commercial fisherman with a family run retailer normally selling day caught fluke for $21.95 lb. He's had nothing the past three weeks. I never saw anything like it, I personally think he's catching but it's going to a higher bidder. I'm only speculating....

Re: Fluke Supply
 

A blind man can see what’s going on- we are killing all the breeders and the males never get to 18”

Re: Fluke Supply
 

I feel the same. It should be keepers are 15 to 18" any thing 18" and larger
should be released.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

I wouldn’t say a lot of fish are being caught but most are short either. Maybe some experienced different results but I just fished Friday and Saturday Oceanside it was was hard to even get a bite period. Fishing sucked actually. I managed a few good fish in the river but my opinion is quite simple that the fluke are really not there

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Gerry have to disagree with you on this one. This years recreational shorts will become this years commercial keepers or worse commercial discards tossed back dead as larger fish with higher catch values are retained. That's not conjecture, it's based on facts from NMFS's own data tables. Most fish won't make it to 18" plus inches and the smaller fish are being killed in the commercial harvest process. There's been a significant decrease in the summer flounder biomass, age classes 2 yrs and younger, when we should be seeing explosive growth. It's either recruitment being down which Mark Terceiro, Ph.D., lead fishery biologist for Northeast Fisheries Science Center "NEFSC", insists it's not other than the last six years (a position I vehemently disagree with which NMFS's own data tables support) or these age class fish are disappearing from the biomass for another reason. That reason, in my opinion, is they're being discarded due to lesser market values as average weight of commercial fish harvested over the last twenty years shows a substantial increase. This during a time when NMFS research states summer flounder are growing slower meaning the average age of fish being harvested by commercials is even older than the increase in average weight would suggest. An increase in 1/2 inch mess size does little to save smaller fish after being pulled through the water in a tow with the weight of the catch on them. In the latest stock assessment published this year for summer flounder, there's data illustrating discard rates on OBSERVED commercial trips for an entire year relative to unobserved trips. There's five years that stand out which show on average an almost 100% discard rate, highest year being 143%! So everyone understands what that means, if the boat retained 1,000 lbs of fish, they actually caught 2,430 lbs discarding 1,430 lbs. in the process while retaining only their legal daily quota with fish of greater value. How many of those fish are we expected to believe actually survived the rigors of those tows? The regulations are killing this fishery for recreational anglers. And our sacrifices are subsidizing the commercial harvest while they benefit from increased catch values based on today's market prices. $21.95 a lb. for summer flounder is off the charts ridiculous but it's a supply and demand reality. As bad as the last two decades have been with regulatory changes for the entire industry, recreational anglers have taken it on the chin far worse than commercial concerns when you consider the increase in market prices commercials are being compensated at. I'd argue there's more summer flounder killed in one commercial tow from dead discards than the number of keepers on a railed party boat harvested in an entire day. We should go back to 14" size limits for both commercial and recreational when the biomass experienced a 600% increase throughout the 90's. The current regulations not only make no sense, they're causing damage to the fishery that will take years to reverse once changes are made which for the time being aren't even a consideration. NMFS has this one completely wrong and has for the last 20-yrs.

As previously posted, commercial harvest of summer flounder in the 80's and 90's consisted 90% of fish ages 2-yrs and younger, a high percentage sexually immature fish. Today it's the exact opposite with arguably 90% or more of fish harvested being three years and older, all sexually mature fish. These are the fish recreational anglers are being forced to release under 18" for NJ and 19" for NY, Ct and RI while the smaller fish which were being retained in the 80's and 90's are now being tossed back with a high percentage presumably dead. Now someone explain how today's regulations are supporting a sustainable fishery and remember commercial quotas just received a 40% bump. All the science in the world couldn't explain or justify the decisions being made, what's been done is counter-intuitive to what should be done. That's the poor fishing we're seeing locally in my opinion and while fishing will improve on a relative basis over the next few months as more fish come in from the east, the fishery as a whole is declining.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Nice post Dakota. Thanks for the informative information. Also I commend you guys who are up to par and following all this and are involved. Thank you for your interest and being a voice for the recreational fisherman. I admittedly have to many other interests and too much going on to focus on it that much. I will tell you the flounder fishing is shit and there quite simply isn’t the fish there. I do whole heartedly agree we are all destroying our own fishery with these bs regulations.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Lot of people are working hard to address the failing health of this fishery and disproportionate allocation of the resource. What I mean by disproportionate allocation, commercial in my estimation has access to harvest between 35 - 40% more of the existing biomass than recreational because of the disparity of being able to retain 14" fish relative to 18" for NJ and 19" for NY, Ct and RI even though they're harvesting larger fish than historically. Defeats the entire purpose of a 14" minimum size limit to mitigate dead discard which has clearly not happened. Recreational community can catch 14" - 18" / 19" fish, have to release them so commercials harvest them and to add insult to injury we're penalized 35% for discard mortality, a mortality rate I believe to be significantly higher than actual. Add to that a 60/40 allocation of annual catch quotas in favor of commercial concerns coupled with the 40% increase in their quota this year relative to status quo for the recreational community based on a speculative new means of quantifying historical recreational catch through MRIP and we're getting the proverbial short end of the stick.

Commercial landings (catch which is retained) based on scientific published data or best available science in the stock assessment shows a 96% decline in the harvest of age class summer flounder 2 yrs and younger between the years 1982 and 2012. Basically those younger smaller fish are no longer being harvested commercially yet their population of the biomass between the same period has declined by 45%. It should be exploding higher. That is a statistically material and staggering relationship moving in the wrong direction. WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS AGE CLASS OF FISH WHICH MAKES UP 61% OF THE OVERALL PUBLISHED BIOMASS IN 2012, last year this level of detail was provided for.

Remember based on NEFSC's lead scientist Mark Terceiro, recruitment wasn't declining so where are all these fish going. If NMFS's position is recruitment is not down, the ONLY plausible explanation is there being killed off and I don't for a second believe natural mortality or predation is the reason. If it is, conduct a study and prove it. Average 100% dead discard in five years on observed trawls is a much more believable explanation. These fish are being killed commercially in the process of harvesting larger fish with greater catch values. If there's a more plausible explanation, someone needs to disclose it because the data doesn't support the findings or conclusions.

In my opinion, the only way we change the management of this fishery is by challenging their own data with inconsistencies or relationships which have radically changed or make no sense. That's where the battle needs to be fought if there's any chance nursing the fishery back to health. Introducing new data is not practical or even an option. This fishery thrived for 13 years between 1989 and 2002 and has been on a steady decline over the last 17 years. The answer is in the data but being ignored. Million dollar question is will fishery management ever make the necessary changes to revive the fishery or pass the buck and continue hiding behind the provisions of the Magnuson-Stevens Act enacted 43-yrs ago.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Found a new guy today and I asked him about it. He tells me I could just be simple economics and costs are overrunning him. He charges $21.95 lb day boat fluke.

As for rec guys it's just to early there's plenty of fluke. For commercial guys the only thing holding them up is rough seas other wise they just scrape them up no matter what water temps are far down below.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

States defy federal laws when it comes to abortion, sanctuary cities , marijuana , illegal immigration etc. N.J. can't do the same for a lousy fish???

Re: Fluke Supply
 

.anyone paying that price for fluke is nuts.
Commercial guys are getting 1/3 that price .
He is allowed 250 a day . That's 5500 bucks a day.
How possibly could costs over run .
Commercial net boats don't come anywhere near that number..

.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

We did fight them back in 2017 https://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/...86ba4cf55.html

And unlike the other issues you mention, we only control what happens inside our 3 mile line... Had we not come to a compromise with the feds back in 2017 and choose to stay out of compliance, we’d all be restricted to fishing inside the 3 mile line for everything, not just Fluke...

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Why would anyone pay $21.95lb for a mild white fish? You could almost get dry aged NY strip at Wegmans for that. You could certainly get a pile of fresh tuna for that, or halibut, etc. $21.95...that's just crazy town. I balk at $7lb.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Check out the Fulton Fish Market website for a good laugh.

One 3# bluefish whole is $18.00

One 1.5# porgy whole is $19.00.

One 7# bag of cleaned blowfish tails is $148.75.

Interesting reading.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

From May 5 through August 31 commercial is allowed 250 lbs trip limit with six landings a week or 500 lbs trip limit and three landings per week for 1,500 lbs total per week max. I assume with all the fish commercial operators say are around, why cast off dock lines for six trips if you can catch your weekly quota in three trips.

$21.95 a pound wasn't the ex-vessel value on the commercial end, it was the price charged by the family run business on the retail end. First chart from the last stock assessment shows the average price per lb through 2017 for commercial catch at about $4.25 per lb. (green trend line). Based on the trend in the first chart, wouldn't surprise me if commercial ex-vessel prices are on average between $5 - $6 / lb. today, significantly higher than historical prices. Difference between retail and ex-vessel price is processors, distributors and retail mark-up. Either way, the prices being paid today are insane. Just checked a local Whole Foods, price was $16.99 / lb. Guy couldn't tell me if it was winter flounder or summer flounder, said it comes in under the description flounder from Massachusetts. Checked the local Kings, same deal but price was $24 / lb.! Check Spikes in Pt., guarantee without looking they're over $20 / lb.. Those prices pale in comparison to what restaurants are charging in NY for a prepared meal so big price tag on this stock which is in part why recreational is loosing the battle. Department of Commerce cares about commerce, not recreational access which is viewed differently even though the money we spend I'd bet is considerably greater than the revenue generated by commercial catch.

If anyone is still not sold on how the commercial composition of summer flounder has changed since recreational size limits started being increased, look at the second chart. This is data right from the 57th stock assessment. It illustrates number of fish commercially harvested by year by age between 1982 and 2012. Numbers are in thousands so 1,441 is actually 1,441,000 fish. Look at the totals 1982 - 1988 versus 2012 in total and by age class. Pay special attention to year 2000 and subsequent when age classes 0 - 2 are all trending down and age classes 3 years and older are all trending higher. This is the shift in commercial concerns harvesting larger fish above 14" fish. Look at the substantial drop in age class fish 2 years and younger being harvested and I'll continue asking the same question until someone can answer it which is, "If these fish are essentially a negligible percentage of commercial harvest (less than 5%) and recreationals don't harvest them at all due to our size constraints, why is the population of these age classes in the biomass tanking when they should be experiencing substantial record setting growth. Legitimate question all our highly educated scientists and Peer Review Committee members and Council and Commission Members should be able to answer. Reality is I haven't heard one word mentioned in any meeting I've attended, in any public webinar session I've listened in on or research papers I've read yet these age classes account for 61% of the overall biomass and are trending in an opposite direction than what they should be. WHY?

Last chart is mean weight of summer flounder by age class and year being harvested. Weights are in kilograms which 1 KG equals 2.2 lbs. So .50 equals a 1.1 lb fish. A 14" summer flounder doesn't weigh a lb.. Look at the weights being harvested and the shift over the years in age classes being harvested and it's common sense to conclude the fish commercials are bringing to market today are made up of larger fish with greater ex-vessel value which are the fish recreational anglers are being mandated to release.

And here's the biggest issue of all. Can you imagine how many smaller fluke are being discarded dead in the process of retaining these larger fish relative to the 80's and 90's. A half inch increase in mesh size does nothing when the nets are lined with fish. If you know any deck hands who've worked on commercial boats, ask them how much is shoveled overboard dead. The numbers are staggering and not close to the percentages used in models and approved by Peer Review. Again I reference 5 years with OBSERVED TRAWLS that averaged 100% discard rates and a high in one year of 143% compared to the significantly lesser percentages used in fishery models as well as the low balled numbers reported using the honor system on vessel trip reports. It's the equivalent of having all recreational anglers who happened to be asked on mail order forms that fuel MRIP to say they fished 5 days throughout the entire season, caught on average 3 fish per trip and had on average only 1 keeper. That's what self reported percentages on commercial trip reports are the equivalent of, they can't be substantiated and no operator is going to report actual percentages which will negatively impact their quotas in subsequent years.

All the data in the world won't help this fishery if it's being misinterpreted or ignored in favor of the interests of the commercial sector.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Never realized there was a commercial market for blowfish. One of the best tasting fish you'll ever eat that dropped off the face of the earth 40 years ago. There were millions of them around and the following year they mysteriously disappeared. Starting to stage a comeback so why not open it up to a commercial fishery. Senseless.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

July 6th first thing this morning, $21.95 was a bargain! My Guy finally managed to put some meat on ice less than 12 hours out of the water.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Don't know what bothers me more, the prices being charged or the fact those fish are the ones recreational anglers are mandated to release after spending $200 all in costs for a day of fishing trying to retain one fish for dinner. Many I've spoken to this year have had trips on party, charter or private boats with hundreds of shorts released and maybe a dozen keepers harvested. All that so commercial operators can harvest our discards while killing the younger age class fish in the process, fish they used to harvest years ago. Madness.....simply madness!

Re: Fluke Supply
 

It's a brave new world things are changing by the min I can't picture it 10 yrs from now. Approx over 50lbs today and will all be gone by 2 and have another fresh tub tonite. I bought 4 lbs I had to have for dip and salad to serve tonite at a party.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Been saying that for years......only falls on deaf ears.:mad:

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Capt. Ron.....might be a fools prayer but going to do my best to see if we can't make those ears hear again! Check your email.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Has it ever occurred to anyone that our regulations are all by design to destroy the recreational fisherman? Think about it, the wack job PETA nuts just can’t close recreational fishing so how do you get people to stop fishing and save the fish from the horrible human beings that are slaughtering these fish and causing massive pain to these poor creatures? They can’t just close the fishery or set up their protests at fishing tournaments (which I remember them doing in the 90’s) but what if they politically influenced NMFS to bleed the party and charter boats out of business with ridiculous regulations? Keep increasing the size limit over a period of years to force the recreational community to continually take the breeders out of the biomass which eventually leads to a collapse and then shut the fishery down for a period of years to save the fluke. How many party and charter boats would survive a period of say 5-10 years of a closure on the fluke industry entirely??? Once those boats are gone they are not coming back. Can someone else give me my a logical reason why you would set regulations to only target breeding females? How many party and charter boats fish for winter flounder in the spring now? I remember great flounder fishing in the 90’s now they are a by catch. Call me a conspiracy theorist but this as plain as day. Oh and the commercial industry Is really only controlled by a hand-full of families on the east coast which have well paid lobbyists in Washington so they will always be taken care for! Call me a cynic, paranoid or just a plain ******* but the future does not look good. The seasoned party and charter captains can see what is going on.
Lastly, if I pissed off any of you tree hugging libs on this site go “f” yourselves!

Re: Fluke Supply
 

thank you Tog,looks pretty clear to me too

Re: Fluke Supply
 

As I learned a long time ago in trying to make a difference in Fisheries Management once you spread the word against one party over the other you have lost the entire audience and accomplished nothing. The people fighting have stopped posting because of the politics and cant post because change happens only with many participants. There is a ton of sh-t going on to address your points, sadly you wont be part of it unless you choose to fight it on the proper platform.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

so its safe to say that the regs are equal for both rec & comm fisheries??? i am confused about why then are we fighting for our share????nothing is remotely
close to being fair.we go to meetings and the feds break out data from the 70's.
they did not know it was from the 70's??? or maybe they don't care enough.they tell us that 90% of all fluke over 17 inches are female but they keep pushing the size up??seems awful weird how the fight for the 200 mile limit was pushed thru
pretty quick and the rec guys are still trying to get some fish regs that make sense for the last 40 years.just for the record i have no beef with the comm guys,as many are my friends.i do however have a problem with a government
that is driven buy money and not the peoples well being.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

I understand your rage but to blame it on the left is just wrong. It's the commercial corporate interests not the "tree huggers" !! Follow the money. Also I always thought this was a fishing site and non-political. This post has been up for days so I guess the administrator is okay with it.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

In a fishery as highly regulated and as vital economically, socially and commercially as summer flounder, it's virtually impossible to separate politics from the fishery or sport itself in light of developments over the last twenty or more years. We, being both the commercial and recreational community, are losing the resource and without putting words in Dave's (Dales529) Gerry's or Joey's mouths I've always thought lack of knowledge by the recreational angling community was as much a problem in our pursuit of a successful management plan and equitable allocation of the resource than fishing reports themselves. We're not going to be successful in expanding our access rights and the fishery won't rebound without changes in management philosophies and legislative changes. Knowledge and awareness of what that means is key. As Dave pointed out, there's many people behind the scenes working on their own time and own dime pursuing those goals. If that's not important to the Members of the site than create a different section for regulatory discussions or the people involved will simply stop trying to educate the predominantly recreational angling community that resides here by not posting in this forum if it's considered offensive or clutter. Doesn't mean the people working for all your benefits will stop what they're doing, just means they'll continue without exchange of information or updates on progress or set backs here. Very easy solution. If that's the popular consensus, would like to hear it from the Members who have a strong enough opinion on the matter to share with the site owner and administrators.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

I personally have learned a great deal about the biological and commercial dynamics at play with the fluke fishery and would otherwise have been ignorant on the topic without the informative discussions herein. The analysis, communication, education and effort are all appreciated.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

There's two sayings that come to mind from the movie about Alan Turing "The Imitation Game". First "Do you know why people like violence (complaining)? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence (complaining) deeply satisfying. but remove the satisfaction, and the act becomes... hollow." and second "Sometimes it is the people no one imagines anything of who do the things that no one can imagine."

Translated, bitching won't accomplish anything other than making you feel good but when that feeling wears off it won't change a thing. Second, everyone has the ability to get involved and sometimes the greatest contributions come from people least expected.

If that's not important dialogue to the majority of Members of the site, as I said it's a simple solution. Posting about regulatory decisions and progress or pitfalls will stop but don't complain when the fishery goes to a 20" size limit with a 2 fish possession limit and a season starts early May and ends mid August. Everyone will be asking for fluke reports the same way we ask for winter flounder reports which are far and few in between.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

bitching is bitching but fact is fact.i for one have spent allot of time and money protesting on not only the inshore fisheries but offshore as well and i can say that very very very little has changed in favor of the rec guys.unless i missed something????.as an example,lets talk sea bass.their stocks are way way up yet
the regs have not changed.its like the pkwy and tpk when they were bulit.they said as soon as there roads are completed the tolls will be removed,ha ha.once they take its gone and they continue to take.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Not going to get in a pissing match with anyone on this. Are you wrong that government has a short term memory, absolutely not. But what are our options. We can do nothing and take what's given us without reservation or try making a difference. I chose the later. If I can impact 1 out of every 100 issues, I'll take it. There's no commercial striper fishing in NJ, think that would have happened without effort. Sea Bass while access is an issue has rebounded incredibly, think that would have happened without various groups and people campaigning on our behalf. My point remains, bitching about something without trying to change anything is like tits on a bull, serves no purpose other than venting. I'm not suggesting we take things face value like tolls being replaced which is why I've said before I believe in the need for Peer Review and Science in fisheries management but at the same time don't think it should be accepted face value without decisions based on questionable data being challenged.

The work that's being done will continue by the few fighting for the benefit of the majority. If that's not the type of information exchange people are interested in reading here as I said easy enough to stop posting on issues effecting fisheries regulations. Knowledge is power in this world, some people simply don't have the time or desire to acknowledge that which is perfectly fine but as we continue to get steam rolled don't bitch about the direction these fisheries are headed, most opt to remain on the sidelines as critical observers. It's an easy position to take but serves no purpose other than stirring the pot.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

i agree with you and no limit.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Being informed about how the entire system works is imperative to our cause.The old saying at the American Legion is"Don't bitch at the bar if you don't go to the meeting''.I must say you do a good job of educating some of the new members that want to get involved.Thanks!!

Re: Fluke Supply
 

There's another old saying... Follow the smoke you'll find the fire. Many of the commercial boats are not owned by the Capt's they are hired to catch fish. Good luck finding out the owners of the boat there's a tangled web ahead off you. There's a lot of diversions, secrecy and third parties. Once you find out then you'll understand who's pulling the puppet strings and greed.

There's another wise saying... Keep your friends close and keep your enemies even closer.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

It's pretty easy to find out who owns a boat. No Illuminati to worry about lol:

https://itstillruns.com/research-boa...r-6471195.html

Re: Fluke Supply
 

LOL, Illuminati? It's not that secret, you sir know nothing how a business in today world are owned and operated. There are winners and losers most of the winners are hand picked fed with a silver spoon. Regulations and laws can make you and they can break and that goes for all endeavors this brave new world. There's another old saying when you want wipe out your competition... Death by thousand Cuts.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

It does not really matter who owns the commercial fishing business's. What does matter is that they have better funded lobbying. Money talks it's that simple. You want better regulations you need to support with money those who are fighting for us. We have the RFA fighting for us but they need money to go against those fighting against us. Until we match or exceed those fighting against us we will keep loosing...Charlie

Re: Fluke Supply
 

Wishful thinking.Most casual recreational fishermen donate a sum of $0.

Re: Fluke Supply
 

money money money,that is it.what org is fighting the greed,corruption & the criminals that have and hold the title of leaders??????.