Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

On a sea bass trip on an unnamed boat, I was involved in a pool fish situation I thought was questionable at best, and overtly crooked at worst..

I was with my adult son, and although it was not a great day for us, we had some fish.. At one point I caught our best fish of the day, a decent size knot head sea bass. You know the look, blue and black with a big hump on the head..
The other look I often see with sea bass is the more brownish color ones that are leaner, no hump, shaped more like a smallmouth bass/yellow perch etc...
Anyway, I knew we had a good shot at the pool, as it was a day without a lot of big fish..

When the trip ended, there was NO call for the pool at the bow where i was sitting.. Finally, I asked the mate who was digging around in a bucket, and pulled out the largest fish in it, a lean brown sea bass about the same length as mine. He put it on the balance scale. I knew we had won the pool, seeing that fish.
However, when he put my thicker fish on that scale, it never moved, not even a 1/4 inch.. It was like the skinnier fish out weighed mine 10-1.. Never did the mate center both fish on the scale as I have often seen them do... I looked at my son, and we walked away shocked.. It didn't even look close, but we accepted the proof of our own eyes....

anyway, as we talked on the way home, and I thought about my last pool win a few years ago, I realized we might have been scammed.. Last time I "won" a pool, the mate balanced both fish several times, centering the scale .. When it didn't move either way, he split the pool between myself and another angler...

However, as the mate held up the balance scales on this boat, he never made an attempt to center it. and that much skinnier fish stayed up top locked.. That scale never budged, as though the screw that held the balance beam in place at the center was locked down tight. When my fish was placed on the scale, there should have been a slight movement, even if the other fish was a bit heavier, it would seem .
It is what it is... this boat has lost a customer forever, and i usually went out with them once or twice a year.. No big loss, i know, and they do need to take care of their regulars, not once a year out of staters..

I don't like seeing mates digging into the buckets of fish of guys fishing alongside them for pool fish, but I have seen it before on various boats...

I often wondered why these days I see a lot of old timers NOT entering the pool.. They might be aware of something I am not aware of...

Should I have said something to the captain as soon as this happened, or would that have been inappropriate? I always feel out of place as I am an unknown among groups of guys that are obviously good friends.

I just thought at the time, that " no these things don't really happen, these guys have to be honest to stay in business", but when I replayed the scenario after we stepped off the boat, and even still today, I realized that maybe there is some distasteful behavior going on... In times past,I have seen half frozen fish with white cloudy white eyes win the pool in
the past, by the son of the woman running the galley.. It was long ago, and I didn't have a pool candidate that day, but that day burned into my memory.. Just wondering if pool cheating by head boat employees really happens?.. Maybe not, but I will no longer be entering any, like many other old timers ... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Smells fishy ! Whenever I have a contender I insist on the mate switching the 2 fish on the balance so that the winner wins on both sides :cool:

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Don't blame you for not naming the boat but now suspicion is cast upon all boats. Hart attack has a great solution!

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

That is the only way to be sure of the winner imo.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

I agree. I don't fish on many party boats anymore but I have heard of shady things going on with sinkers and other random things stuffed in fish to win. I have even seen mates open the bellies of pool fish to show what's inside at times of disbelief before paying the winner. (probably the most extreme thing I've seen)

Every boat is different but you have the right to ask them to switch the sides the fish hang and hope the other fisherman is honest.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

First off, you were scammed, sorry to say. My best guess is a foreign object (like a sinker) was shoved down the throat of the “winning” fish.
Unfortunately, I can kind of relate. About 7 or 8 years ago, I was on a party boat out of Central NJ. The boat was packed, easily more than 50 anglers on board. I was fortunate enough to catch the largest, pool winner. When it came time to collect, the mate handed me a 20 dollar bill.
I knew this was wrong, so I asked where the rest was. She ( it was a female) told me the total pool was $20!!!
This was total BS...and to this day, I have never set foot on that boat again. In retrospect, I should have raised a stink with the Captain. However, due to their dishonesty, they have cost themselves easily a couple of thousand dollars over the subsequent years in lost fares from me.

I have been fortunate to win a few pools over the following years on other boats. I have always been troubled by the fact that the system is so unregulated. The overwhelming majority of boats are honest...but as you saw, and I have seen, shenanigans do take place. Perhaps collecting the money and placing it in a clear container that all can see would eliminate my issue.

As for your issue, all that can be done is to fully examine the fish if you suspect cheating.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Thanks for the comment..You must understand how I am.
I am pretty much a naive' and trusting soul, thats more inclined to believe in the best of the human nature, not the worst.. As I get older, thats starting to change, sadly...
As I stated, on party boats I always feel like an outsider at a best buddies club.
I didn't think it was right to say anything and that on a party boat the mate is to be trusted 100%, period, no questions.

If the general consensus from the knowledgeable membership on this site is that thats not an inappropriate thing to do, I will certainly do it next time, if I have similar doubts.. the trip in question i was just not thinking along those lines as this was happening.. It was later on when I started re thinking everything when I put it together..
1-His fish being lean and streamlined, and mine was much fatter with that typical big head and mouth,
2-The scale looking "locked", never moving even in the slightest at any time when the fish were being placed on and off,
and 3-
the fact that the mate never once centered the fish as they always do.

Next time, outsider or not, I will ask the mate to center the scale, or better yet, to remove both fish and change sides.. If he and the captain get pissed off at me , so be it... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

A great way to check those scales would be to hang a full beer can on each side by the pull tap, and then switching the cans to make sure it was correct.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

If you spent as much time standing up for yourself at the scene of the "crime" as you did writing this then maybe you would have won and set a good example for your son.

On an unfamiliar boat you:

1. Ask the mate to switch the fish

2. Check the other fish for foreign objects

3. Check the scale

If the mate resists any of this, scream bloody murder to the captain and threaten you'll go public with it.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Possibly, but if an outsider asked the mate to do it, both he and the captain might very well get pretty pissed off... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

In the heat of the moment these things might not have been so clear to Bob. I do not think it's fair to say the he set a bad example to his son which neither your or I know. Your point is valid but the delivery is a little harsh.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

As I said, at that instant, i didn't think much about a "crime"...
More confused until an hour or so later when I started to think more about it.

Secondly, the boat was not really "unfamiliar" to me.. I go out out on it once or twice a year, for the past several years.. always liked the main captain, seemed like a decent guy. However, the mate was one in a procession- like many boats, they never seem to be there all the time over several years.

I would be hesitant to ask for weights in a fish etc, its just not really how i am wired, and checking personally is a good way to get a fist in the face.
Checking the scale?.. how exactly?... Its not my property, and I am pretty sure most captains would not want a guy they don't know handling it...

As i said, past several years, I have seen a LOT more good fishermen, lots of old timers like me included, refuse to enter the pool.. Might be a pattern here that I should be aware of..
Most people are more aggressive to defend themselves in matters such as this than I am, and might well be more cynical and less trusting. I am typically quieter than most in situations like this, trusting those that are running the business to do the correct thing.. thats my weakness for certain, I can offer no real defense, except to say that next time , IF I enter a pool, I will ask at least that the mate level the scale with both fish, and possibly reverse them... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

first of all my son is 34 and has 2 children.. By this time, he should be setting examples for me..lol..
Indeed, at the moment, I just shook my head and thought, wow i though for SURE we won the pool, but I guess I was just wrong.. It took a while and some discussion with my son, putting both our observations together before we agreed.. Yes, we got hosed by a creepy mate, and his buddy whose bucket he went rifling through.
My mistake, but it won't happen again, no matter how pissed of anyone gets..


Why a mate would feel the need to do this to paying customers that trust him , I simply don't understand... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Sorry but I find this post to be a little absurd. Posting about this months after the fact is very peculiar. This would’ve been easily cleared up if you spoke up and had the scales rebalanced right there. Switch sides too and rebalance it. What if the other fish was bigger? Nothing personal against you, I never met you, but I’ve heard plenty of times on party boats people say “my fish is bigger” when it clearly wasn’t. Or somebody catches a 21 inch fluke and they call it 6 lbs. Or an 8 lb tog is caught and somebody calls it 10. You get my point. Just because you say your fish was bigger, doesn’t mean it actually was. To post months afterwards is very fishy.


Again, nothing personal to you Bob.. I’ve just seen it too many times on party boats. Even friends of mine who fish often will insist their fish is bigger. Even when it’s not, and even after weigh in. Personal bias goes a long way..

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

I don't get in any pools anymore. At all. Had a mate skim the pool I won last year. The boat was FULL!!!!!! Got me for around 85 to 100 dollars. Never again.


Meat hunter......

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Meat Hunter and others: Perhaps all of the sponsor boat captains who see this can make a decision that once fares are collected they can announce the amount of money in the pool. That would stop 'skimming' aka stealing!

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Stop bashing the NJ Party boat industry on your multiple assumptions. Support your right to fish and especially those folks who service us fishermen. Where would NJ fishermen be without the party boat?

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Where would the party boat or any business be without its customers? More importantly confident satisfied customers who will return and continue to support them?

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

No offense taken.. first off, i am 64 and have been fishing fresh and salt water since I was a little kid, and much of that time in salt water as I lived in NJ for 37 years.. I fish a lot, and can spot a bigger fish from a smaller one believe me.. The reason I mention the colors and body shapes of sea bass, is because most that fish for them know those deep colored blue black knot heads are a heavier bodied fish than the slender brownish ones...
both fish were the same length, mine had mch bigger shoulders and a deeper body.. I should have made a stink right then and there, but i just walked away at the time, and stewed about it later the more I thought about it...

the reason I am posting about it now, is very easy to understand.
Its January, its mid week, not much real time fishing to talk about, and I like good conversation on recreational fishing topics of all types, and this is one that the knowledgeable and savvy fishermen on NJF might have interest in, or opinions on, and I felt it was a reasonable topic to discuss.
I am not sour grapes, or angry, just wanted opinions and possible similar experiences... I typically trusted the pool weigh in procedure, but never will again in my lifetime... I just don't think a mate has any business rifling through a bucket to find the biggest fish in it with another angler standing there watching.. That fish should have been handed to the mate if its captor was in the pool.. Its my fault I didn't think about it at the time, but i am typically not a suspicious type. It took an hour or so of thinking and discussion before I fully realized what transpired, and realized i had been taken.

No big deal, the guy got his money, and that 70 or 80 bucks would not have made me rich in any case. The boat in question has lost a customer, albeit a once or twice a year customer. Also I realize now that even though I am an outsider, its not out of place to tell the mate to kindly center the scale, or put the fish on opposite sides of the scale in a pool weigh in situation. Thats why I like to discuss these issues on this forum from time to time, to learn and get ideas and opinions.. This forum section is NOT a 100% "reports' forum as many think.. Its a salt water fishing discussion forum and that encompasses many topics... bob
bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

I respect the captains and mates.. probably too much. Thats the main reason I didn't open my mouth at the time. It looked bogus even at first glance, but I kept my place.
Respect goes both ways.. I had a lot of respect for the captain, thats why I fished with him each year.. his mates?.. not so much.. Also I did not write assumptions, I wrote observations.... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

The Mates on that boat always have a "Daunting" Task when measuring pool fish;););)

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

""That's why I like to discuss these issues on this forum from time to time, to learn and get ideas and opinions.. This forum section is NOT a 100% "reports' forum as many think.. Its a salt water fishing discussion forum and that encompasses many topics... bob""

Excellent point. Well said Bob.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

You did one of the two choices.

1- make a stink of it with the mate and captain when it happened. This is not the forum. I'm sure it bothered you then. But not enough to complain to anyone that mattered.

2- bite the bullet and just go elsewhere to fish. Which you did.

The discussion here is just that- discussion. Walked away from it.

There's not going to be many (if any) telling you NOT to talk to the people on the boat when it happened. That is if you wanted to get it remedied.

That's the difference between fishing something and just bitching about it.

It cant be fixed here. Simply put... you blew your chance to fix it when you left that boat.

Next time SPEAK UP. It also embarrasses him in front of the people who REALLY REALLY matter- HIS FARES. That's the payback or cure and stuff like that about a boat from his fares spreads like a cancer if true... reputations in the toilet.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

This was a good discussion. I learned that if in question always ask to have the fish flipped to the other side to confirm. A "Sticky" scale is something I never thought of.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

There was a discussion on this site a few years back about tipping the mates on party boats. It included thoughts on how much is appropriate and how much is appropriate for a pool winner. It went on for page after page and much of it was "Bullett Bob" making excuses for why HE DOES NOT TIP MATES! Perhaps the mates on this boat knew Bob would stiff them, after all he did say he fished on this boat a few times a year. Karma Bob, karma.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

I’d absolutely be in favor of this! While most are honest, the temptation is apparently too great for others.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

The only reason a pool is run, is to benefit the mates. Bob's question is did the Mate in question look at Bob and say " This Guy is going to stiff me"

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

wrong.. I said I feel no OBLIGATION to tip the mate in that thread.. Big difference... To be sure, I DO often tip mates, for good service, always when cleaning fish of course, always give them a nice cut of any pools i win.
however, i have never felt the need to hand a mate a $20 bill just because I am fishing on the boat he works on.. Some mates i have seen over the years are a lot more interested in market fishing, and drinking beer with the regulars than they are in providing fine service. I know that many on this board feel they MUST tip a mate always, good service or not... i don't have that mind set ,sorry.

If i step on a boat, get my own bait all day, untangle my own line, unpin my own fish, free up my own bottom hangs. and a mate never even says good morning, or lends a hand to help make my day of fishing better, I feel NO need to hand him a tip. Tips are earned by good service, not for showing up in grundigs.
However, thats a different topic. In this specific case, I had never seen this particular mate working on the boat in question.. he was most interested in darting into open spots at the rail casting bucktails or Deadly dicks,, most likely for pelagics that were showing on the screen in the wheelhouse.. I was hung up constantly that particular day, probably lost 10 rigs, and never did he come over to help.. For that level of service, should I tip??.. Not in my DNA, sorry.. This thread will now devolve into a" OP is a cheapskate" rant of course... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Agreed, I have learned quite a bit on this thread, and will probably keep entering pools .. What i will do is talk to the captain before the boat leaves port and clarify as to if he would mind if the 2 top fish could be switched on the scale in a close contest.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Someone said I was a bit harsh. People who pull this shit get me pissed off so it wasn't really directed at you. The pool is gambling. They used to shoot people for cheating. Things may have calmed down a bit since then but the cheaters count on the inherent intimidation those in charge have built in plus the challenge of bringing the confrontation of the accusation. Ever been faced with someone coming back at you aggressively shouting, "You calling me a liar?!!" Most back of searching for a more diplomatic solution at that point rather than saying yes, I am. Balance scales are easy to check. Make sure each arm is exactly equidistant to the center. It's an old trick easily thwarted by insisting on switching sides.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

For my part there was no offense taken..your replies are typically always well thought out. As stated, I have learned quite a bit on this thread from the enlightened insight of other NJF members..
Next time out [in 4 or 5 months:(], I plan on asking the captain about repositioning both pool contending fish and centering the scale with both fish, and if it would be a problem with him on his boat.. That will be done in the morning as part of my early morning conversations with the captain, as I am usually one of the first on the boat..
I am not one for angry confrontation with strangers, especially those younger, faster, stronger, and more full of piss and vinegar than myself.

In a younger day I was much different, but have become much more docile than when I had access to raging torrents of testosterone.

I recall way back when as a younger fisherman, some captains would announce the dollar figure of the pool, and I think it should still be done today.. I also can recall the days when the mate walked the deck calling for pool fish, would hang any fish you handed him, and always center the scale, and it ALWAYS moved one way or the other.. this was not done that way at all, . In retrospect the fault was 100% mine, I should have said something right then and there, accusatory or not.
Its no big deal really, just something I wanted to discuss and get some opinions from others on a good fishing forum in the throes of mid winter doldrums... Your opinions are valid as always, and certainly well appreciated... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Who is in charge of certifying these home made scales anyway? :D

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

El Chapo:D

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

A few years ago, I was on a NJ charter boat, that runs open very often.. actually more open boat dates than charter... Boat can handle maybe 12-14 people fishing at max.. anyway, as we left the dock the captain pretty much disavowed any pool arrangement, saying in effect, "if you guys want a pool, fine, you're on your own, set it up among yourselves- I want no part of it" -
thats a paraphrase of course, but that was the message he gave us, his customers on that particular day in May about 4 years ago .. Being mostly a larger head boat patron, not so much smaller 6 pack charter type boats i was somewhat surprised.. however i can understand where he was coming from... bob

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Bullet......nice thread and covo startrer........ya right man.......jan/feb what else to debate???

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Lol what?

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

We've all heard these stories, I have zero doubt it happens...a friend of mine was stiffed on a seasonal pool, on a boat he goes on but twice a year. If you don't think there are mates who want to "keep it in the family" you're out of your mind.

Pools can keep things interesting, but it can get out of hand. I've been on boats that have a 1st fish pool, main pool, monthly/seasonal, 3 different side pools. Before you know it you're stepping off the boat into gambler's anonymous!

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

You definitely should've brought it to the captains attention.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

I’ve never entered a pool nor do I have the desire. I am certain many of mates line their pockets with some money from these pools. Not all but some. I’m just there to enjoy fishing. That being said I’ve never bought a scratch off or a lottery ticket either. As far as the tipping subject I feel that tipping is way out of hand in this country and nowadays people expect to be tipped well without good service. That being said I generally always tip well but I feel it is a racket and the businesses should pay their own help like I do in my business. That’s what makes the world go around, everyone can have their own opinions.

Re: Party Boat pool "irregularity"?
 

Understood, and thanks for responding captain..
One reason I did not I guess is that while this went on the capt was in the wheelhouse piloting the vessel . I suppose I could have said something at the dock, but did not.


I hope you can give us another reply that would really interest many of us on this thread considering your position.

You have mates that you employ on your boat, and of course you trust they will do the right thing by you, your business ,and your customers, both regulars and first timers.
You know your guys well i am certain.. If someone makes an accusation against a mate you know well and trust, I would imagine your first inclination would be to assess the situation, but at some point you would have to come to their defense if things got heated.. I imagine it would not be a pleasant situation having to settle an argument between a trusted employee and a good customer.. your input as a charter captain would be a great addition to this topic... bob