Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

One of the graphs from Rutger's study which illustrates the relationship of length and sex for summer flounder. Graph is in centimeters, 18 inches equals 45.72 centimeters. You can see how disproportionate the relationship is between males and females as size increases to the point where almost all fish over 19.5 inches are females. NMFS's insistence on increasing size to control catch relative to this data is one of the reasons recruitment has been decimated. Combine that with the following statistics and the results are disastrous.

Reproduction:
Both males and females become sexually mature at the age of 3. The fecundity (number of eggs produced in a single spawning season) of females increases with size and weight. A 14 inch female produces about 460,000, and a 27 inch female about 4,200,000 eggs in a season. Reproduction takes place in the fall, as soon as the fish begin migrating to wintering grounds. Peak spawning activity occurs from early September through early November in water temperatures of 53 to 66 degrees F and at depths of 60 to 160 feet. The center of spawning activity occurs off the coasts of New York and New Jersey with less concentrated activity occurring in southern New England waters. The eggs float in the water column, hatching 72 to 75 hours after being laid.

Translated, not only are we harvesting almost exclusively breeders, every time size limits are increased we're increasing the harvest of larger females with considerably greater egg production capacity at what could conceivably be a 10:1 ratio. Couple that with the commercial fleet harvesting concentrated schools of migrating fish during their fall / winter offshore migration and spawn and NMFS / ASMFC wonders why the biomass is trending down over the last 15 years. You can draw your own conclusions but the data strongly supports a gender imbalance created in the biomass by size increase legislation over the last almost twenty years compounded by commercial harvest in the fall / winter months during the spawn without understanding the negative impacts that harvest has on overall egg reproduction. It's obvious for every female harvested we lose the immediate benefit of that years egg production. Larger question in my opinion is how many eggs already released are destroyed by continued netting and what impact does the harvest have on stressing out the biomass, potentially impeding it's ability to reproduce. No one to my knowledge has that answer and it arguably might be one of the most important pieces of the puzzle.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Below is from NOAA website for 2015

U.S. Recreational Fisheries Economic Impact Trends:
Jobs - 439,242, Income - $22.7 Billion, Sales - $63.4 Billion, Value Added - $26.1 Billion, Total Trips - $60.9 Million

U.S. Commercial Fisheries Economic Impact Trends:
Jobs: $1.18 Million, Income: $39.7 Billion, Sales: $144.2 Billion, Value Added: $60.6 Billion, Revenue: $5.2 Billion

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Effective 6:01 p.m. on Sunday, December 2, 2018, which started a new fishing week, the New Jersey commercial Summer Flounder trip limits increased from 500 pounds two times per week or 1000 pounds one time per week, to 1,250 pounds two times per week or 2,500 pounds once per week. On the evening of Saturday, December 1st, 2018 shortly after 6:00 p.m., Lt. Scott observed a commercial fishing vessel enter Manasquan Inlet and dock up at the Fisherman's Dock Cooperative in Point Pleasant Beach and begin the offloading process. Upon inspection of the vessel, Lt. Scott noticed that the vessel's Federal Vessel Trip Report (FVTR) listed 1,000 pounds of summer flounder that were going to be sold to a New York-based dealer. Additionally, it was discovered that the operator failed to give at least two hours notice to the Marine Region Office prior to offloading summer flounder. Lt. Scott asked the operator if the vessel was loaded with more than the 1,000 pounds of summer flounder that was recorded in the FVTR. The operator indicated there was additional summer flounder in the hold and claimed his plan was to offload the 1,000 pound trip limit then head back out to make a few tows so he could get the rest of the new weeks trip limit. Lt. Scott advised the operator this was a violation in addition to offloading after 6:00 p.m. and directed the operator to offload all the fish he had onboard. When the offload was completed, more than 3,000 pounds of summer flounder was in possession along with other managed species of fish, which were not listed on the FVTR. Additionally, just under 100 pounds of black sea bass was onboard which was over the legal bycatch amount of 50 pounds. Summonses were issued for failure to accurately complete FVTR, failure to provide two hours notice prior to offloading summer flounder, offloading summer flounder after legal hours, possess more than the daily trip limit of summer flounder and possess black sea bass over the bycatch limit.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Didn't call in, waited until shortly after the required 6:00 pm weigh in cut off, rolled the dice and came up snake eyes. A big THANK YOU to Lt. Scott and F&G in general! And the FVTR was already filled out with 1,000 lbs, what a surprise. Probably no dead discard either I'm sure. To my point earlier, with the limited resources F&G has this happens all the time. 2,000 lbs. more and lets say on average wholesale was $4/lb. at the dock, that's $8k more in illegal catch value. If the guy offloaded to another boat or waited a few hours, chances are he wouldn't even have been caught.

Until the laws change and the fines outweigh the upside financial benefit, operators are going to take these risks. Permits should be forfeited, heavy fines imposed and boats / equipment confiscated. A slap on the wrist isn't going to change behavior when the upside benefits are so significant. Guys like this abuse the fishery at the expense of the operators who play by the rules and the recreational community.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Just something to ponder.........the commercial fluke quota is 1,500 pounds per week during a few months during the year. That equals 750 two pound fluke per week for one boat. Which party boat or boats caught 750 keeper fluke in one week? Increase the number of commercial boats to ten. That is 7,500 keeper fluke per week. I don't care how good the captains and anglers are on the party and charter boats along the coast, but 7,500 keepers is quite a total to match. Think about it.

I'd like to hear from someone representing the commercial industry to hear what their take is on this topic. I know they will have their complaints and arguments but I can't see why they would be opposed to closing the fluke season for them during the fluke migration to and on the spawning grounds if they want to protect their future. Of course the argument will be that they are losing money but losing their livelihood due to the extinction of a species is worse.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

They get to keep 14 inch fish, correct ?

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Yeah, they do Andy. I know where you are going with this. They "harvest" considerably more than 750 fluke per trip. Because the discussion was mainly about females, I thought I'd focus on larger fish. But, you are correct, by catching smaller fish, they are actually catching more fish. And, how does a smaller 14" or smaller fluke get out of the net (even with larger mesh) when they are being squashed by all of the fish on top of them. That, I just don't understand. If you drag a net full of fish that are being squashed for any length of time or distance, don't you think they will get suffocated? I need this to be explained to me.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Yes commercials are allowed to keep 14 inch fish.... I'm fine with that since those fish count towards their quota which is in pounds not number of fish... If they had to discard those 14 inch fish that happened to get caught in their net, those fish would not count towards their quota, end up discarded/dead and would be wasted...

Further, people above are doing the math that commercials keep X amount of fish each time they go out and how that is way more then any party boat could possibly catch... The one thing missing in this logic is commercial landings are monitored and counted by weight and once their quota is attained, no matter what the date is, they get shut down... On the recreational side we are given seasons from X date to Y date and can fish all of those days.

As far as quotas, it varies from year to year but right or wrong, commercials usually get a little more then the recreationals do... Last year they got 54% of the quota and we got 46%.

Some of you maybe reading this and think, hmm Gerry's pro commercial fishing.... The reality is there will always be commercial fishing as long as there is demand for fish. Knowing that you just need to be sure the quotas are split fairly, the commercials are monitored closely so they don't exceed their quota and given sensible rules that don't force them to waste the resources with discards, which is why I support allowing them to keep 14 inch fish..

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

This is a great post different from winters past as there is a lot of good information here ( Thanks Tom Dakota for all the in depth research) and others with well intended and informative posts. Tom you have to get on one of the main councils one day!

Mild reality check:
1) Recreational and commercial has always been and will remain under separate regulations and the two can not be compared except for poundage allocation. The spawning closures would be great however another major act to the current regs. The video earlier in this post in dumping the Fluke over was NOT because they were over the limit but because it was by catch out of season so they had no choice. Again if By catch measures out of season were changed say a poundage allocation for in season and a by catch allocation for out of season on that same species not to exceed the yearly allocation may make sense. But since counting fish is apparently impossible that has issues too.

2) While the female harvest vs stock biomass is obviously a major issue the methodology is not in place YET to address this . SSFFF and Rutgers studies did NOT pass peer review due to a computer data input vs output glitch so current modifed stock assessments are still in play. The Sex based studies will not be used and may take more time until it can pass peer review and be implemented
Please continue to support SSFFF and Rutgers as much as possible to achieve the final goals.

Having said that in my opinion and I agree with Joey Da Fish due to the current management process the introduction of a slot fish in any manner will result in one and only one result. A SHORTER season by weeks not days.
Doesn't mean any of the information in this post isnt valid or important just don't think the system is ready YET for that change.

Modern fish act allows for more flexibility so lets see how that translates but will still be based on the current stock assessments for input data or "best science available that exists


Good news is we are looking at an increased quota (lbs) by maybe 16 to 17% for this 2019 season. Changes to the " best science available" are in the works and under consideration but not quite there yet

This does or does NOT mean anything yet as those meetings are yet to be done and slot fish may or may not be on the table.

Simply put All Fishing groups and the public etc will all be involved as much as allowed for input but in the end I expect (dont know yet) that NOAA will supply the 5 options for our season to be debated but not listened to and PICK one at the NJ State level.
Should be an interesting couple of months AGAIN.

This is JUST MY Opinion.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Percentages and quotas are all good if it prevents a harvesting free-for-all. The harvesting allotments though, have to be established by using accurate data. I've always held that the recreational allotments are the result of inaccurate or estimated catch data. The commercial catches have to be logged in and provide data that accurately reflects the tonnage brought to market. The recs don't so our numbers are calculated using a mathematical formula based on hypothetical numbers. Even when we lose fishing days to bad weather, it is presumed we make up for the loss of time and fish for those days by catching more in the remaining days. I'm not sure of the basis of their reasoning, but the regulatory committees seem to use a flawed formula for determine fluke quotas for the recreational fishermen. Unfortunately, trying to have recreational anglers fill out a log or report their catches at the end of the year is an unlikely scenario. So, our fluke quota is solely dependent on the "reported" landings of the commercials since our allotment is a historically applied ratio to the total pounds of fish brought to market by the draggers.

One out-of-the-box idea is to include the party and charter boats in the commercial category. They could share in the same seasons, size limits and quotas as the draggers. Pay-to-fish is a kind of commercial enterprise. That would leave only the catch by private fishermen to be tallied. It's only a thought, but think about the possibilities for the party and charter captains. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

This will never work... Although the commercials have dates when they can start fishing, their season ends not on a date, it's when what they've weighed in meets their quota. So say an example they meet their quota on 8/1... Now the the party and charter boat guys have to stop fishing on 8/1 because the commercial quota is filled??

That and what are you going to do to figure out what the party and charter boats catch to add to what the commercials catch? Are you going to force them to weigh their catch when they come back in each day like the commercials have to??

Unless I'm missing something here, your suggestion makes no sense at all!!

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

I love all the science and number crunching, then the commercial dragger comes along and wipes them out, wake up people.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Don't be too quick to dismiss the idea. There are six commercial "seasons" of approximately two month each. Seldom has a season been closed so prematurely as to severely affect the number of days on the water. Once the season is closed, there is always the provision for by-catch and then the anticipated opening for the next season which is usually a short time afterwards.

Ask the "for hire" captains if they would like to fish throughout the year for fluke. Ask if they would mind reporting their catches online or if their customers would like to take home some smaller fluke. Other states have regulations that require their commercial fishermen to report their catches. The striiped bass fishery in the states south of us is regulated to include hook and line fishermen who are considered commercial fishermen.

It seems to me that the people who are being hurt the most in all of the recreational regulatory management plans are the party and charter boat captains. They have more skin in the game than those of us who fish only a few days or less per week on our own boats. Their needs should be considered more urgently than the rest of us. They should be in a different category. Maybe they should be able to share the seasonal allotments differently than they do now. Their total catch affects our total catch quotas and none of our combined quotas affects the commercial draggers limits.

Give the small charter businessmen a better shot at making a living. Think outside the box. Don't be too quick to say that it doesn't make sense. True, it does have to be "fleshed out" but they stand the most to lose by maintaining the status quo. In fact, they are already losing. When you think about it, the fact that the party boats and small charters are lumped in with the rest of the recreational fishermen means that the "recs" are actually helping to over fish our seasonal quotas and visa versa. Perhaps it's time for the party and charter boats to have their own seasons and limits.

Consider it. A captain whose livelihood depends on fishing and catching should be given a voice and it should be heard. My idea might be a bit radical to some but I haven't heard it discussed before. I think it's an option that has some merit.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Shorter seasons and lower limits make it hard to make a living with any for hire boat.Lot of pressure on fluke and stripers with the ridiculous limits on winter flounder and weakfish.This battle has been going on for years and millions of dollars spent.Some good news would be welcome.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Gerry couple comments. In theory I'm also as previously mentioned in agreement with commercials having a 14" minimum size limit if it's being followed. Concerned about Dan's comments that mesh sizes are increased on a spot basis or in general since it would completely defeat that benefit and why the legislation was adopted initially. Over the years I've witnessed winter offloads at the docks and believe me there's aren't many if any 14" fish in their catches simply because that's not where the value is. Also don't believe higher mesh sizes help 14" fish escape. Most articles I've read say a majority of the catch due to weight of the catch combined with water pressure created during the trawl come up already dead or in a condition they won't survive if released. So while I agree the size was allowed to benefit the fishery, don't believe it's accomplishing it's intended purpose because of this wholesale price differential issue between smaller and larger fish.

Minor point but point nonetheless. Watch the video I posted earlier which I posted again below. Notice the huge strip at the 38 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inSN...ature=youtu.be

Video was made in 2010. Here's an excerpt from the 2010 Summer Flounder regulations:

Unloading of summer flounder can only occur between 6:00AM and 6:00PM from November 1 through April 30 and between 6:00AM and
8:00PM from May 1 through October 31. When a vessel contacts the Division regarding the time and place of unloading, the vessel must also report
how many landings will have been made that week, including the proposed landing being called in. Once the season has been closed in the directed
commercial summer flounder fishery, no vessel can land and no dealer can accept any summer flounder landed in New Jersey in excess of the bycatch allowances specified above, provided the amount of summer flounder landed from any vessel cannot exceed 10%, by weight, of the total weight of all species landed and sold. A portion of the annual quota is dedicated to a by-catch fishery. Once the directed and by-catch quotas for a season have been landed, no vessel can land any summer flounder and no dealer can accept any summer flounder landed in New Jersey. Only whole fresh summer flounder can be landed, except that individually frozen summer flounder can be landed in amounts not exceeding by-catch allowances specified above provided they can be measured for total length. No vessel can land and no dealer can accept any summer flounder which have been filleted or processed in any way.

Why would there be a fluke strip on board when filleting wasn't allowed at sea and then take a guess where those fillets ended up. I'm sure it wasn't filleted and discarded. Sure it wasn't reported on the FVTR since only whole fish are allowed to be weighed in. Based on the size of the strip the fish was a very big female like the others dumped only probably larger. Wouldn't be difficult to hide a bunch of fillets on board and sell them in the black market once back in port by transferring to another boat before pulling in to offload their catch. It's only one strip in the video but the larger point is it questions behavior at sea. As I've said, if those were the size fish tossed back dead, imagine the size of the 200 lbs. retained and how many other fish might have been filleted and either offloaded before docking or hidden from F&G back at the docks. Lot of compartments on commercial boats, wouldn't be difficult. There has to be ~50 fish in those three totes. Average size appears easily over 5 lbs. per fish for a combined weight of at least 250 lbs and if those constitute the smaller fish compared to what was retained, safe to say over 500 lbs. of female fluke were killed as by catch alone by one boat on one trip. Multiply that by the number of boats fishing and the numbers are staggering. If we're suppose to believe most fish come up alive in nets, you have to ask why all those fish were thrown back dead and not released alive when they hit the deck especially if the purpose of the video was simply to make a point to NMFS. Why would you have to kill those fluke to make that point. More likely scenario is fish were stock piled on deck throughout multiple hauls, culled after the last, largest fish were retained and overage either filleted or tossed back dead. When the boat returns to the dock, they appear to be compliant with 200 lbs. of fluke but the damage at sea has already been done. 300 lbs. isn't reported anywhere against the commercial quota and I'd venture to say minimal dead discard reported on the FVTR. Why would they, it would only be used against them in future quotas and is completely unquantifiable. It's the honor system and it doesn't work with the amount of dollars wrapped up in these fisheries.

I'm not concerned with quota allocations in general since they aren't terribly disproportionate and commercial and recreational have both been impacted. Regarding your comment " the commercials are monitored closely so they don't exceed their quota and given sensible rules that don't force them to waste the resources with discards". I agree efforts have been stepped up to monitor compliance at the docks but what occurs at sea is completely not monitored other than the location of the boat which does nothing to monitor catch. With the wholesale price differential, I believe hygrading is a major problem in this fishery and causing extensive damage. I know the "Codfather" story I mentioned is maybe an extreme case in terms of magnitude, BUT the fact it went on for 20 - 30 years undetected and was only brought to surface as a result of the IRS money laundering investigation speaks volumes about the ineffectiveness of enforcement efforts. While enforcement efforts have been improved, I don't agree the process and limited resources insure overall quota and catch compliance. NO ONE from enforcement has any idea what's going on at sea. It's simple to offload any amount of their catch before docking and run it up to NY to sell in the black market we all know exists and no one from F&G would even know. Hygrading is a problem, 60 - 70% differential in wholesale prices guarantees it. I believe the majority of operators play by the rules but a lesser percentage who don't reap havoc on this fishery. That problem is not an NMFS regulatory issue, it's a combination of the disparity with wholesale market prices between size fish coupled with the lack of sufficient enforcement resources fueled by a multi eight or nine figure black market for fresh fish that circumvents the regulatory supply chain.

As far as creating a separate category for charter and party boat catches, would have to give that more thought but my first reaction is along the lines of Gerry's reply and twofold. First it adds more divisiveness to the fishery and complicates certain matters (some of which Gerry already eluded to) more than they already are. Second it focuses again on catch and not reproduction which again in my opinion is the wrong focus. We're not addressing the primary problem hurting the fishery if we're to believe the data we have to work with is remotely and directionally correct. While I agree we should be open-minded to all suggestions, just my quick thoughts on the suggestion Gerry already replied to.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

[QUOTE=dakota560;524827

We're not addressing the primary problem hurting the fishery if we're to believe the data we have to work with is directionally correct. .[/QUOTE]

I think the comments and discussion on this thread are really healthy and civil and thanks to Gerry for moderating and keeping things on track. It is exposing some sore spots and frustrations as well as emphasizing some of the problems and stumbling blocks that face us. Most of us would like to see more liberal size and bag limits. Most of us question the data that is being used to determine the quotas and seasons. This is all causing divisiveness between various interests with the federal interventionists at the root of the debate. There will have to be a compromise somewhere and not just one that maintains the status quo. A status quo to the current regulations might be considered a win by some because we didn't give anything back. But, what did we get? How has all of this negotiating been a compromise when both sides didn't give or get something. As long as the Feds keep threatening to increase the quotas and we keep begging them to not do it, we've not made any progress. The threat of increased size limits and shortened seasons will always be held over our heads.

Do we want more female fluke to spawn? Do we want to catch bigger fluke or more fluke? Do we want to be able to keep more fluke for our coolers? Just what do we want? If we want all of the things I mentioned, what are you willing to sacrifice? It can't just happen with a wave of the hand. It will take time to rebuild the stocks. That will happen when the commercial seasons are adjusted to prevent egg-bearing females from being targeted while they are on the spawning grounds. That will mean concessions from the commercial draggers and legislation by the NMFS. Something like that would be a start, but we will have to give something in return. What might that be? Who will give in first and what will it be?

Do we trust the data that NMFS is using? I hate to use hypothetical situations but if it makes someone think, then it is useful. So, hypothetically, what would happen to the fluke regulations if the data about the fluke reproduction numbers came back at a ten-year high? Would our quotas be adjusted? I don't know. What I do know, is that despite observable increases in fluke populations, the sizes limits have increased as well. What would it take for the NMFS to decrease the size limits and liberalize the bag limits? It is all hypothetical of course but to think the size limits might be lowered is highly unlikely.

So what is the problem? Waiting for more fluke to be spawned; wanting more fish to be harvested now; or expecting the NMFS to concede and lower their optimum harvest levels? As I've mentioned, something has to give. Someone has to make a concession. I just feel that we've been more than patient while waiting for the government agencies to try to restore the fluke fishery to some mythically and mystically historic level or to whatever they indicate is their optimum number.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Bravo Billie....someone thinking outside the box to "rescue" the poor and struggling for-hire captain's. How many more captain's have to go out of business to prove the system is broken? It's about time someone thought about "leveling" the playing field. It's an idea I talked about for a long time, only to fall on deaf ears.....sad. Thanks for bringing up the topic and putting forth a viable solution to a long standing problem.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the commercial's....they work very, very hard for what they do, BUT so does the for-hire fleet. Shouldn't they be afforded the same rights? The for-hire guys catch fish for a living...don't they?

You want to save the Jersey shore especially after Sandy.....save the party and charter fleet and ALL the businesses associated with fishing in New Jersey..$$$$$$$$. Thanks again Bill...spot on.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Hi Dakota, I'm humbled by your intimate knowledge and interest in what has been an " Oh-Too-Long" controversy. Your perseverance in all of this is enviable.
I totally agree with your observations about targeting spawning female fluke and it makes total sense, even to me, a mere fisherman. In order for that to happen, the NMFS will have to make a deal with the commercial lobby. I doubt if they are up for a battle nor do I think they will budge from their position toward achieving total restoration of the stocks. While I agree with their mission, I think their strategies have been flawed if not failed given the amount of time their plans have been in effect. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is INSANITY! That is where we are now.

The scientists depend on data for their decisions. Evidently, there are two sets of books containing that data. If decisions are based on data and the data is wrong, we are left in a lurch. I just think the NMFS will not take the time to reexamine their data or be open-minded enough to entertain other points of view or other data.

As for the idea of a different set of regulations for the party and charter boat fleets, well, I still think it has to be considered. There would have to be some accounting for their catch, that's true, but the good captains all keep logs of their catches, only, they are not reported to the state as the commercial guys do. There are only estimated catch totals of the fluke that are harvested by the recreational anglers and a theoretical formula to determine mortality from released fish. How is that scientific? How does the NMFS come up with their recreational harvest numbers, by an estimate? How accurate are those estimates?

If the party and charter boat captains agree to log in their landings in order to extend their seasons and catches, it's worth a shot, in my opinion. I know that liberalizing the quotas and sizes limits and seasons for the "for hire" captains will take some work and some give and take. The harvesting of more fluke many not fit into your plan to take pressure off the spawning females but it does satisfy the needs of the party boat industry at least until your plan can be implemented.

The commercial fishermen don't lose anything except a few weeks of closed seasons but they retain the same quotas of pounds of fish landed per season.
The stocks get a chance to be rebuilt. The recreational fishermen don't lose any fishing time and the party boats are able to stay in business. But, it all has to be agreed on and egos will have to be put aside, and compromise will have to be agreed upon. It is a win-win if everyone just "chills out" and talks and realizes that we are not adversaries but allies. Change is always hard to accept but life is always changing. To ignore and resist change is like I mentioned before...........INSANITY!

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Charter and Party Boat Captains, feel free to chime in here and keep me honest..

Bag and size limits aside, I think what Charter and Party boats are looking for is as many days on the water with something to fish for and a season that has specific dates so they can plan their schedules and or book charters... Further, those days on the water need to line up with the times of year their patrons want to fish.... The same is not true of commercials because they don't care about days on the water or what time of year they're allowed to fish. They'll fish any time of year and want to fill their quotas in as few days as possible..

If that's the case, by combing Party and Charter boat businesses with Commercials you have 2 parties with a totally different set of needs... Can you see that Fisheries Management meeting when they ask for public comment feedback about seasons, bag and size limits?

Party and Charter boat businesses need to be aligned with a group with similar needs as them so they have a better chance of having their needs met. IMO they line up better with Recreational then they do with Commercials.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Though many of these ideas are very well thought out I believe it’s highly inappropriate. The focus should be on the government on how regulate the fishery. Their science etc. only when we start properly collecting data and securing proper proven science will any of be able to make a proper assessment on what we think is a good idea. Though discussions are healthy I think it’s like pissing in to a fan.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Gerry, I'm not promoting a program that cuts into the commercial limits. I'm first of all just wondering how the NMFS comes up with it's recreational catch totals. On what scientific evidence do they base their results? Except for some dockside interviews, has anyone given evidence of their catch totals to the NMFS or any state agency?

Yes, it would be difficult to set up separate regulations for the party boats and the recreational private boaters and shoreline fishermen, but not impossible. Would there be gripes? Of course, just because people don't take well to anything that might appear to be unfair to them. Who, though, would begrudge a private charter or party boat captain an opportunity to make money by extending their season or limits? Not me!

Did the private boaters catch more fluke over the last few years than the party boats? If they did, and that's the reason our seasonal quotas and lengths have been compromised, then that should be shared. If it's the other way around, then the private boaters will be pointing fingers in the other direction and that should b shared as well. Once the culprits are discovered they should be willing to forgo some of their season or catch limits to the other group just to make it fair.


So, here is a topic for another thread........Who caught more fluke last season.....the party boats and "for hire" captains, or the private boaters?

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

The feds use MRIP to estimate recreational landings


https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/natio...mation-program

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Joe I have a lot of respect for you, Gerry, Dave and a lot of people on this site and others I've been fortunate to meet trying to help our cause. I thank associations like RFA and SSFFF for their time and effort representing us in efforts to save this fishery for us and generations to come. I believe in the saying "Actions talk, bullshit walks". Not sure you meant to say the ideas on this thread are highly inappropriate, at least I hope that's not what you intended. They may prove fruitless and ultimately action is required for change, but inappropriate means something completely different. Great part of the site is exchange of information, if that's not appropriate I've wasted a lot of my personal time with countless research and posts the last three years.

You're correct focus should and has to be on government, NMFS, ASMFC, MAFMC and any other regulatory body ultimately making policy decisions. "When we start collecting proper data and using proven science", in my opinion waiting for that to happen is the equivalent of waiting for the Mets to win another World Series, it's never going to happen and if the collection methods changed someone whose position it doesn't support would end up questioning it anyway. Precise reason I used their data from their science for my analysis and the articles published in Fisherman Magazine and RFA Making Waves, it's takes away NMFS's and ASMFC's ability to question or dispute it.

There is NO DOUBT in my personal opinion what happened here. As complex as fisheries management can be, in the case of summer flounder it's obvious what's caused a decline in SSB. And since SSB and MSA thresh holds and provisions drive all decisions, question is how do we get commercial operators, recreational anglers, party and charter captains, the individual states that make up the Mid-Atlantic Fishery and fisheries management in general on the same page. Personally I don't think we need to do anything with data collection. The data whether you believe in it or not is not going to change yet the trends it portraits in my opinion make perfect sense. I know that's a bit of a contradiction but we're stuck with the data so bear with me while I connect the dots.

Some more research. Check the first graph which is from the 41st SAW (Stock Assessment Workshop). Recruitment (egg production) is in (000's) and SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) is in metric tons. Look at the relationship of recruitment to the biomass in '83 (almost 5:1), the trend from '83 to '04 and the relationship in years '03 and '04 when it drops below 1:1 for the first time ever. That trend continued it's decline over the ensuing years, drastically dropping between 2010 thru 2015 (last years data provided for in Addendum XXVlll) right after size limits spiked in 2008. Since fluke become sexually mature at the age of three, that's exactly the relationship I'd expect between recruitment and size limit increases between '08 and '10. In '15, the ratio dropped to a low of .5:1 from 5:1 in '83, so in 32-years that's a relative decline of ~90%! Compare that to the next two attachments and pay close attention to the illustration of changes in size and possession limits. The relationship of egg production to SSB started it's tumultuous decline in 2002 when limits were increased from 15.5" for recreational anglers while commercial operators maintained a 14" size limit even with substantially lower possession limits and catch quotas in place today compared to years past. Why, gender composition of the biomass with more and larger breeders being harvested was altered and egg production has been decimated ever since.

Why is that, look at charts four and five regarding overall and commercial catch by age of fish. Source of these charts is from the 57th SAW. In the 80's and 90's, younger fish were being harvested because of the size regulations, look at the shift in size starting around '02 when size limits increased exponentially. In '02, SSB hit it's high water mark of ~50,000 metric tons and has since been on a steady and continuous decline because older, larger female fluke are being harvested. The data is right there for anyone to see but it's being ignored because of MSA. Rutgers "Length and Sex" couldn't support these facts more which makes it more disturbing it failed being incorporated into this latest Peer Review. That alone seals the fate of this fishery for conceivably the next 5-years unless something changes. We're too far down the rabbit hole. I found an article which I have to relocate stating in the mid 80's, ~75% of the annual harvest was made up of fish measuring in the 14" range. Today, conservatively 90% of the entire harvest is made up of fish over 18", almost entirely consisting of female breeders with significantly greater egg production capacity. That's all anyone needs to know about the "State of the Union" regarding this fishery.

The last chart attached I was only able to find for the years '79 thru '85 but I'll find more current information eventually or maybe we can get some input from someone on the site with commercial experience. Look at the last column which has inflation adjusted wholesale prices for small, medium, large and jumbo fluke in '85. I assume these are wholesale prices and bear in mind they're from 33 years ago. Demand for fluke and increase in sushi demand in particular I can only assume has increased the disparity in these prices. Jumbo - $1.27 lb, large - $1.14, medium - $.93 and small - $.61. There's a 100% difference between small and jumbo which is precisely the reason I believe significant amounts of hygrading occurs at sea when you can increase your overall catch value by 100% retaining larger females and discarding smaller fish regardless of mesh sizes. In today's market with today's demand, who knows what that price differential might be.

We don't have to reinvent the wheel here. We already experienced a period, 1989 thru 2002, when SSB the driving force behind basically every regulatory decision, increased from ~7,000 metric tons to ~50,000 metric tons. Possession limits were 8 for the most part with size limits ranging between 14" to 15.5". Average catch quotas were much higher than today, recruitment was much higher than it is today and SSB hit record levels. Why NMFS and ASMFC wouldn't consider re-instating those tried and tested regulations is absolutely beyond logic and comprehension. If we kept them in place and recruitment stayed healthy, commercials would be happier, recreational anglers would be happier, party and charter captains would be happier, catch quotas could be much greater and SSB would probably be at 200,000 metric tons if the trend trajectory it was on continued. MSA thresh-hold SSB for the fishery to be considered rebuilt is ~62,000 metric tons so MSA would no longer present an obstacle.

I'll work with any council, commercial leadership, recreational leadership, scientists or government affiliation in a unified manner to help save this fishery but government has to be willing to listen otherwise Joe as you so eloquently put it, "We're just pissing in a fan".

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

So, who do you know, or how many fishermen do you know who were surveyed? The key word throughout the NOAA charts and explanations is " estimated". So, the fate of the summer flounder rests on a part-time survey that is randomly administered to a very small sampling of anglers. It's results are then used as part of a mathematical formula which then produces an estimated result. To me, the only science in the matter is that someone uses math. As we know, if one variable changes in the formula, the results change as well.

The NOAA report indicates the stocks to be restored but seems to insinuate that they want it to be restored even more. The scientifically inspired decisions appear on the computer screens of only a few people. Once the numbers start crunching, the system gains momentum and strength. Once it gets going, it won't be sidelined. A conclusion is ultimately reached and the rubber stamps get inked and await the opportunity to be put to paper. The stage has been set and the actors appear to read their lines. The play begins; the drama unfurls; the rubber stamps appear and the cast plays its final scene. The curtain falls and the actors retire to celebrate and await the revival of their performance again next year despite the outrage and disappointment of the audience. " All the world is a stage". How true. How true!

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

"ROD AND REEL WILL NEVER HARM AN OCEAN FISHERY”, period, end of story."

I USED to be a firm believer in this until about 8 or 10 years ago a school of striped bass sat off LBI for about 2 months. And for 2 months this massive school of striped bass got pounded by recreational anglers by both beach and boat. This is when boats were flying out of Manasquan inlet at 40 mph at 5am to be "first on the fish". I swear in those 2 months 1/3 of the East Coast striped bass population was taken by recreational anglers, the runs haven't been the same since.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Well stated Andy.. I do believe what the captain says is true, but only for certain species.. maybe fish like Blues, Fluke, Sea Bass, porgies, ling etc.. Fish that move around some, migrate, inhabit different types of bottom..
however, fish like blackfish, can certainly be harmed by relentless pressure from recreational fishermen, there no doubt about it..

I have related this story here before but its worth repeating, and is similar to yours.. back in the early 80's, there were massive numbers of the biggest of the big tiderunner weakfish sitting right off the sandy hook shoreline in between ambrose and sandy Hook channels.. The fishing was beyond description.. 2 guys drifting could catch 100 of them during a night tide - 7 to 12 pounders, and often did.. The boats knew they were there of course it was no secret, party boats and private boats both,, Those fish were pounded relentlessly.. Guys were going out each night with coolers the size of friggin' bathtubs, and filling them.. those fish were being sold to markets for pennies a pound, to help offset gas expenses mostly.. Within about 6 weeks of that craziness those fish were simply gone, never to return in similar numbers.. They were stacked up in a relatively small area that was well know, they were stupid and easy as hell to catch once the sun went down, and it was a summertime fishery which meant that guys went after them a lot because it was close to the ramps, and the weather was warm.. thousands and thousands of big potential breeders were taken when they were most vulnerable crowded together, then sold basically as dog food, so guys could get out the next night.. I was there, witnessed it all, living in Union beach during those years.. Personally I would take 5 or so myself when I went out, but looking back, even that was too much, and 2 of those huge weaks was plenty.. I must place some of the blame on myself, and I do..
many of us know better now, but few of us did at the time... The fish were ALWAYS there,, always.. Fluke/weaks/blues/sea bass/blacks/flounder/whiting/ling/macks.. Always there.. until they weren't.. I don't blame recs so much as I blame the draggers and pound netters, but we sports CAN put a big dent in certain localized ocean fisheries, theres no doubt about it.. those fish are in certain zones, they are NOT everywhere.. Once where we know where they live - which is easy in the modern age, we can inflict terrible damage... bob

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Add in the massive catches of Va every winter when egg laden cows filled the fish boards.
Glad Va stepped up and now limit is only fish under 36"
All bigger fish have to be released.
.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Did that fleet look something like this?

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Thats obscene.. With that type of pressure, there's no choice but to throw fish back.. a lot of them,, its either that, or just not have fish in the damn water... bob

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Bingo and here in lies part of the problem... NFMS knows MRIP is flawed but they fall back on "it's the best available science". It's impractical to think they can measure it like they do commercials and weigh everyone's catch. So you do some sampling with surveys, you apply some assumptions, some math and you have an estimate... Is the estimate correct, who knows but it's all you have...

There are a few other problems worth mentioning here that effect our regs:
- Stock assessments... After all the landing information is gathered, which we know is flawed, every now and then you need to get an estimate of the stocks. Again, you do some sample surveys, in this case some trawls. You then count the fish, their sizes, apply some assumptions and math to it. This past assessment indicated there was plenty of Fluke but a shortage of younger Fluke which indicates the future may not be that bright and you slam the breaks on and proceed with caution.
- Better Science and the reluctance of the NMFS to accept it.. SSFFF has been fighting to include the sex model studies for years now as well as the actual fishing research they funded in cooperation with Rutgers on charter boats. Under the heading of it's not a good idea unless it's it their idea, they go a bit defensive about it but they seem to be coming around which is good.

You also can't ignore the political side of things
- You need to change the laws under which fisheries are managed and the Modern Fishing Act is s step in the right direction
- There is constant pressure from Environment organizations which would rather us not fish at all


Lastly, a huge organization like NOAA with an annual budget of $5.6 billion with $921 million going to the NFMS, you naturally want to protect it and you have to justify your existence. If you're paying them to manage the fisheries, what do you think they're going to do?? They are going to over manage it and be reluctant to invite outsiders into their sandbox. We outsiders typically only get to comment once they've decided what the quotas are and what we want our season, sizes and bag limits to be to achieve their predetermined quotas.

Let me be careful to say this is not a dig on the people in the NFMS, it's a dig on the system they are forced to work within.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

[QUOTE=Gerry Zagorski;524899
Lastly, a huge organization like NOAA with an annual budget of $5.6 billion with $921 million going to the NFMS, you naturally want to protect it and you have to justify your existence. If you're paying them to manage the fisheries, what do you think they're going to do?? They are going to over manage it and be reluctant to invite outsiders into their sandbox. We outsiders typically only get to comment once they've decided what the quotas are and what we want our season, sizes and bag limits to be to achieve their predetermined quotas.

Let me be careful to say this is not a dig on the people in the NFMS, it's a dig on the system they are forced to work within.[/QUOTE]



And that sir is called "Job Security" which is a big part of the problem.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Check out the attached links.

https://www.surfcastersjournal.com/w...-striped-bass/

Look at the 3rd and 4th picture in the above article. There was a video on line of that catch years ago that would make you sick if you saw it, appears to have been removed. If I do find it, I'll post it. Thousands of very large pregnant striped bass caught in gill nets trolled from the beach in Virginia, thrown on the beach, tossed in a pick up truck and carted off. Not sure the year or what the rules were but it was enough to make you sick. Check out the last picture which is a video of dead discard from commercial operators in North Carolina not many years ago. Thousands of fish killed by four commercial boats that were allowed to keep 50 fish a piece, cull the largest and throw everything else overboard dead. A complete waste of the resource. 200 fish supposedly harvested, thousands killed as they were slitting their bellies in an effort to sink them and avoid detection. What you're seeing are the ones that didn't sink, imagine what the dead discard numbers actually were. This is in my opinion the minority who could care less about the resource as opposed to how much money they make every trip. Damage done is extensive and irreparable.

Look at the first attached chart from The Fisherman Magazine and tell me what it reminds you of, in particular recruitment to size of biomass. Exact same pattern. Recruitment in 1994 was ~180 million, ~170 million in 2004 and reduced to ~30 million in 2013 when the biomass was significantly higher than 1994. Just look at the recruitment (egg production) trend from 1994 thru 2015. As Dan pointed out, combine all this with the continued onslaught of egg laden cows in Virginia and North Carolina that continues today both commercially and recreationally. A fishery headed for another collapse. Look at the images of beach gill net catches in Virginia and does anyone wonder where this fishery is headed. Sorry for the size of the files but these fish are large and predominantly females. Fisheries management hasn't learned from past mistakes, same pattern we're living with summer flounder. No inshore north south migratory species with a commercial market can sustain this onslaught of pressure year round and yes when it comes to inshore fisheries recreation absolutely contributes to the damage. Stripers get pounded year round, even during the spawn. Regulations have to be implemented protecting them for some period of the year, the fall winter months again would make most sense when eggs develop and the spawn occurs. But you know the southern states on the Mid-Atlantic Fisheries Council or the commercials with equal vote won't allow that to happen so once again let's collectively let another fishery collapse and deal with it when it's too late. Outstanding fisheries philosophy.

Even though it's not related to stripers, watch the attached video regarding the harvest of croakers. Seen any of those around lately? In particular look at the 1:45 thru 2:35 mark and pay special attention to the comments the narrator makes from 17:45 thru 18:10. Will blow your mind. Absolutely unbelievable and speaks to the prevailing mentality existing with a percentage of commercial operators which is unconscionable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-7bR1Ol8Fw

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Rutgers study was well thought out and took years to conduct. Tremendous amount of actual at sea data was collected and analyzed, fact based data. One of the few aspects of this fishery with data not being questioned. And what happens, it's pushed aside by NMFS due to technical reasons in a process where everyone is crying for accuracy and arguably the study contains the most important and accurate data needed to reverse the decline in recruitment statistics NMFS's own data underscores. There's not a fishery in the world that can rebuild or sustain itself with a 90% reduction in relative recruitment strength of the biomass. Instead NMFS continues the use of data highly based on assumptions to make the same regulatory decisions which have continuously failed the fishery for the last twenty or more years. The fishery is not "Steep" so Mr. Witek if your reading this please don't embarrass yourself suggesting it is. NMFS data says it's not. And if you find the term "Relative Recruitment Strength" offensive or too hard to understand, don't give it more thought as some people have spin doctored the truth so long common sense explanations and terms become perplexing and almost impossible to understand. Don't want you hurting yourself trying to grasp basic relational trend analysis.

Washington has the ability to change anything if it benefits their agenda. NFMS is made up of the people who work there and as such you can argue the system they work within was created by them with the exception of MSA imposed impacts. Not using Rutgers Study in the latest Peer Review has NOTHING to do with MSA and is a mistake based on what we know. Secretary of Commerce Ross has all the power and resources available to change the direction of NMFS, the processes used and the regulatory philosophies followed and once again it appears we're going to be faced with the same failed options we've been faced with since the early 2000's.

When Washington wants something, they can move at the speed of light. When they don't, moving at a snails pace would appear fast compared to the pace they operate at. Just a fact of life we're forced to live with every day. Unfortunately this fishery and many others represent the later and the frustration is not knowing how to change it. I know what people will say BUT we've been saying the same things for a very long time with no substantive changes..........very frustrating considering what's at stake here.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

That’s just a half mile of the 15 miles of boats .
And that was when most boats had left their marinas for the season.

Anyone running a boat that thinks we don’t put pressure on a fishery either has no clue , or their head in the sand .

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Man is winter fun !!!

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Florida. Flounder (these are the same as our summer fluke. 10 fish 12 inches:eek:

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Florida has 3 distinct species of "game" flounders in good numbers .. Gulf/Southern/ Summer..
they lump them all together as "flounder"..


We can catch 3 fluke here, and then 2 winter flounder, and then unlimited sundials, and unlimited 4 spots,..... we have MUCH more liberal flat fish regs than Florida does.:rolleyes:..

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Someone help me understand the following harvest data. First chart deals with historical and current commercial quota allocations by state extracted from the Summer Flounder Commercial Issues Amendment dated August 2018. Second chart comes from the ASMFC Draft Addendum XXVlll in 2017.

If you look at Chart 2 (Recreational Harvest) North Carolina and Virginia combined in '16 were projected to make up ~3.6% of the overall recreational harvest or ~230,000 lbs relative to a coastal-wide harvest of ~6.4 million lbs.. Currently North Carolina has a 4 possession limit at 15", Virginia 4 possession at 16.5" for recreational, significantly more liberal than all northern States.

Commercial landings in 2017 were 5.83 million lbs. North Carolina and Virginia combined represented almost 50% of those landings, equivalent to other nine states combined or ~2.9 million pounds. How is that possible?

Please review the third chart and following comments which were included in a letter from New York Attorney General, Division of Social Justice Environmental Protection Bureau dated March 23, 2018 to Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross.:

Because older and larger summer flounder are distributed further northeast in the summer flounder’s range, and possibly due to other factors, the center of biomass of the summer flounder stock has shifted northeast since the 1980's. Trawl survey data indicate that the stock is now concentrated in the northern mid-Atlantic waters east of New Jersey and south of Long Island, and in the southern New England waters east of Long Island and south of Rhode Island and Massachusetts (see Figure 2).

That being the case, how does NC and Va. receive 50% of the commercial harvest in this fishery which I assume are being harvested from our local and offshore waters. Would appreciate others perspectives. And while we're on the subject of location of the biomass and all the global warming theorists, this has always been my opinion. While there's obviously global warming occurring which needs to be understood and addressed, my personal belief is it has little impact on this fishery since a majority of the existing biomass per the attached chart still resides in our back yard. As with most species, larger fish seek out cooler waters, I believe the illusion which many believe of a massive northern migration due to climate change is in fact the result of size increase regulations causing less of a harvest of 15" to 17.99" fish establishing the geographioc relocation of the biomass further north. Global warming didn't drive them, average size has. Review charts 4 and 5. Commercial harvets used to consist primarily of 1 - 2 year old fish (Chart 4), fish which weren't even sexually mature. So essentially past year harvests in the 2000 to 2002 and earlier years didn't even effect egg production. Today with size increases and the harvest consisting of primarily 3 year old fish and older, almost every fished harvested negatively impacts recruitment. And NMFS, ASMFC don't even address, mention or question a 90% decline in relative recruitment statistics. A three year old fish on average is ~45 centimeters or ~18" with differences between females and slower growing males. Compare all this to Chart 5 which illustrates age to length and relate that to the commercial harvest information by age on Chart 4. The regulations have allowed smaller fish to grow, but with their significantly lesser egg production capacity it's had little to no effect on increased recruitment as NMFS hoped. Instead it's put a target on larger females with incredibly greater egg production capacity and caused the biomass comprised of larger fish on average to move further north. Still find it interesting how two states, who are more responsible than any other state for the last and potentially next crash of the striped bass fishery because of commercial over fishing, receive ~50% of the commercial summer flounder quota, a majority of which are harvested in our own local waters almost 400 miles away from their home ports. They have no biomass in their area which is why recreational landings are so scarce, for that reason they're given more liberal recreational size and possession limit and provided access commercially to harvest stock (almost half the quota) in our own waters. Someone help me understand the reasons behind these decisions and allocations. To add insult to injury, commercial harvest in our area back in the 80's was estimated to be ~46% of the annual commercial harvest, today it's estimated to be ~90%! NMFS IS LEGISLATING THE DECIMATION OF RECRUITMENT AND CRASH OF THIS FISHERY. 90% of commercial harvest in our own backyard where most of the spawn takes place, tell me this isn't having serious consequences on the spawn. The more research I do the more incompetent fisheries management appears to be in their interpretation of data and policy decisions. We're working our way to a 2 fish possession limit at 27" with a season starting on March 1st and ending June 30th. Level of incompetency is without rival how the summer flounder stock is being managed.

Re: Fluke Regs this year
 

Andy maybe I misunderstood your post but when I saw the baggies and the pirate patch, I think you're encouraging people to keep what they want...

It's not only you but many others seem to have issues when people keep Stripers but it's OK for Fluke?

Point in case.... Someone puts up a deck shot with some Fluke here, no one seems to care.... But put up a deck shot with Stripers, and people loose their minds, you'd think they killed Flipper or something and the lectures start.

I'm curious to find out why there's a double standard or maybe I misunderstood your post?

Anyone else have any opinions??