Slot limits

[Capt.Yasar]

Read a lot about slot limits on these forums. Now that politicians are also talking, is it good time to discuss and lobby our public reps. for introducing slot limits? Spare the juveniles and breeders. For example, Fluke 16"-19" 5/bag. Stripers 27- 40 2/bag. Nothing will happen quick may take years but is this a step in the right direction?

[Rocky]

Slots are a great way to bring back the numbers of our fluke fishery, but at this point in time we will be very lucky to get status quo this year.

[hammer4reel]

Slots are a great way to bring back the numbers of our fluke fishery, but at this point in time we will be very lucky to get status quo this year.

Status quo will definetly put us out of compliance , pushing the slot NOW can work to our favor, as it can meet the cuts proposed by NMFS .
and show that NJ can meet their numbers under OUR OWN management plan.
quite possibly keeping us in compliance and not have a 2 fish at 20" shoved down our throats



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[Rocky]

Status quo will definetly put us out of compliance , pushing the slot NOW can work to our favor, as it can meet the cuts proposed by NMFS .
and show that NJ can meet their numbers under OUR OWN management plan.
quite possibly keeping us in compliance and not have a 2 fish at 20" shoved down our throats



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Do you honestly think they can make that decision in such a short period of time? You know as well as I do this system is broke and changes do not come easily. Yes I would be in favor of slots this year, but that would be a miracle considering how little time we have left to make a decision.

[bigfishbob]

Politically this might just be the right time to get NOAA OUT OF the fisheries management business ALTOGETHER!

[Capt.Yasar]

There are a lots of knowledgeable folks on this forum. Between us what are the reasonable slots limits we can propose for Fluke?

If we can start calling Rep. Frank Pallone and other representatives with a common message maybe we can start something which, in few years, may become a reality. Am I being too much optimistic :)?

Just to start discussion how it sounds to have a Fluke 5 Fish Bag Limit / size 17.5"--21", what other options may be reasonable to sustain the fishery?

[dales529]

While Slot Limits are being discussed on every level They just wont listen YET.
The approval of Option 5 by NOAA, ASMFC etc does NOT include Slots and it has not been peer reviewed or accepted as a means a fluke management for 2017.

NJ can NOT institute a slot limit for 2017 as that type of management is NOT a current approved option.

Two Things will or wont happen:
1) New Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross will enforce NO new regulations be instituted until a new bench mark assessment is done and in that case ALL states will go back to 2016 regulations. (this is what we hope for and then continue Slot discussion as well as Magnuson Reform for 2018 and beyond)

2) He doesn't do that and NJ decides to stay with 2016 regulations thus going out of compliance when the season starts and someone notices we have fished under 2016 regulations. Then many things can maybe happen.
They can start the process to find NJ out of compliance and force the 2 fish at 20 inches and 2 month season. In which case NJ can say no to that as well.

OR
The secretary can find we are NOT out of compliance and let us continue under 2016 regs.

OR
NJ is found out of compliance after we don't agree to the 2 Fish @ 20" and they shut down Summer Flounder for both commercial and recreational fishing. ( not likely but possible I guess)

All of the number 2 scenarios then come with other possibilities as to whether NOAA can enforce any of it in or out of state waters.

in other words this fight is still in the early stages so please try to be patient and let it unfold. Trust me many are working on all the scenarios daily and as soon as something tangible is available you will all get the information.

EVERYONE GETS THAT STATUS QUO DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING REGARDING THE BEST MANAGEMENT OF THE FLUKE STOCKS.

in the meanwhile keep supporting this and those that are doing the dirty work

[AndyS]

Remember when dealing with the general public 99.9999% are complete idiots. When you start taking size and bag limits and twist them around and nickel dime people they more than likely will just throw in the towel. I guess if you impose slot limits you will have to hand out a booklet to just every person who goes saltwater fishing. K.I.S.S.

[stevelikes2fish]

Politically this might just be the right time to get NOAA OUT OF the fisheries management business ALTOGETHER!

You just hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD. NOAA NEVER ON ABOUT ANYTHING, has no clue what is in the ocean. They simply make up numbers, change them as they see fit and expect us to swallow their complete bullshit,

Government desk jockeys creating more bureaucratic bullshit.

[bulletbob]

You just hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD. NOAA NEVER ON ABOUT ANYTHING, has no clue what is in the ocean. They simply make up numbers, change them as they see fit and expect us to swallow their complete bullshit,

Government desk jockeys creating more bureaucratic bullshit.

NOAA does indeed bite , but we have friends here that will defend them tooth and nail till the last breath...

[stevelikes2fish]

They serve about as much purpose as does the veterans affairs. Hopefully the new Secretary of Commerce will start swinging the ax in this waste of taxpayer funded agency. And I could care less who their friends are.......

[hammer4reel]

While Slot Limits are being discussed on every level They just wont listen YET.
The approval of Option 5 by NOAA, ASMFC etc does NOT include Slots and it has not been peer reviewed or accepted as a means a fluke management for 2017.

NJ can NOT institute a slot limit for 2017 as that type of management is NOT a current approved option.

Two Things will or wont happen:
1) New Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross will enforce NO new regulations be instituted until a new bench mark assessment is done and in that case ALL states will go back to 2016 regulations. (this is what we hope for and then continue Slot discussion as well as Magnuson Reform for 2018 and beyond)

2) He doesn't do that and NJ decides to stay with 2016 regulations thus going out of compliance when the season starts and someone notices we have fished under 2016 regulations. Then many things can maybe happen.
They can start the process to find NJ out of compliance and force the 2 fish at 20 inches and 2 month season. In which case NJ can say no to that as well.

OR
The secretary can find we are NOT out of compliance and let us continue under 2016 regs.

OR
NJ is found out of compliance after we don't agree to the 2 Fish @ 20" and they shut down Summer Flounder for both commercial and recreational fishing. ( not likely but possible I guess)

All of the number 2 scenarios then come with other possibilities as to whether NOAA can enforce any of it in or out of state waters.

in other words this fight is still in the early stages so please try to be patient and let it unfold. Trust me many are working on all the scenarios daily and as soon as something tangible is available you will all get the information.

EVERYONE GETS THAT STATUS QUO DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING REGARDING THE BEST MANAGEMENT OF THE FLUKE STOCKS.

in the meanwhile keep supporting this and those that are doing the dirty work

Dave I dont feel this is correct.
WE specifically asked at the meeting what happens IF we didnt accept the options on the table.
Kirby said after the letter was sent to the say that we were being found out of compliance , we would be forced into compliance with the 2 fish at 20" UNLESS Nj could show a way to meet the reductions.
He never said it had to be one of the 5 options they had given us.
Only that the thresholds of the reduction be met

[Capt.Yasar]

He never said it had to be one of the 5 options they had given us.Only that the thresholds of the reduction be met

So the slot option 5 fish bag limit of size 17"-21" can be a reasonable future option? I am not hung on current situation but what we can put on the table for current / future years. what other slot proposals can keep us in compliance?

[hammer4reel]

So the slot option 5 fish bag limit of size 17"-21" can be a reasonable future option? I am not hung on current situation but what we can put on the table for current / future years. what other slot proposals can keep us in compliance?

I had suggested a five fish limit
(3) at 16-19"
(2) over 19"

[reason162]

I had suggested a five fish limit
(3) at 16-19"
(2) over 19"

Once again, not necessarily disagreeing with the principle of a slot limit, but your proposal would keep us in compliance for about 30 days. Size and time are the only ways to regulate the harvest, if you tweak one the other gets shifted as well.

[fishguy]

2 @ 16"-20"
2 @ 20"-24"
1 @ 24"+

Pretty much 1 trophy a day. It might actually encourage people to release big females, especially if they get 2 smaller slots.

[Capt.Yasar]

4 @ 16"-24"
1 @ 24"+ (Trophy Fish)

keeping it simple. single limit size for slots fish and one trophy.

thoughts/comments?

[dales529]

As stated correctly by Reason162 slot limits would greatly reduce the 2017 season even if they were approved methodology
The ASMFC approved the motion for Option #5 which is the methodology to achieve Conservation Equivalency or Harvest. By approval the states in each region have to adhere to Option 5 methodology of 3 fish@ 19" and a 128 day season. They only thing individual states can alter is the start and end dates of the season.
Again this is because we are managed by region. In the old State by State conservation NJ could have opted for different methods to achieve the same harvest.

Since NJ has presumably opted to not go with Option 5 and presumably go out of compliance then many unknown to date scenarios can happen. This is why I keep saying its too early in this campaign to guess what may or may not happen.

I could not agree more with Slot Limits and pushing full bore for their consideration starting now. I just think (do not know for sure what NJMFC will do) that its too much to get through for 2017.

[Rocky]

If we can get slot fish this year great, but I doubt it will happen. That is why I think status quo for this year would be a gift compared to the other options on the table.

[bulletbob]

2 @ 16"-20"
2 @ 20"-24"
1 @ 24"+

Pretty much 1 trophy a day. It might actually encourage people to release big females, especially if they get 2 smaller slots.

excellent proposal....

[Mike K]

So the slot option 5 fish bag limit of size 17"-21" can be a reasonable future option? I am not hung on current situation but what we can put on the table for current / future years. what other slot proposals can keep us in compliance?

I definitely support the idea of a slot limit for fluke, but how could it possibly be 5? The science (and i know everyone thinks it's BS) says there's less fluke swimming around out there (meaning all of New Jersey and not just north or south) than 5 years ago or even 10 years ago. Is there anyone that thinks there are more fluke out there than 5 or 10 years ago? But before you kill me, i blame it on either natural fluctuation or the existing limits that force us to kill only large female fluke. So how about 2 at 14 to 18" and one over 18"? I'm just saying...

[Mike K]

They serve about as much purpose as does the veterans affairs. Hopefully the new Secretary of Commerce will start swinging the ax in this waste of taxpayer funded agency. And I could care less who their friends are.......

Let's hope he doesn't eliminate NOAA's doppler radar and weather buoys. I have to admit I'm a fan of these. :)

[reason162]

The science (and i know everyone thinks it's BS)

Not everyone, just the most vocal.

[dales529]

Not everyone, just the most vocal.

Reason162: I happen to find most of your posts well thought out, sound and informative. Having been around fisheries management issues for 9 years now in meetings, fundraisers etc its NOT just us or the most vocal that know that the data collection methodology / science is flawed.

All the Councils themselves admit that the system is not accurate, but the best available. All we want is to stop the repetition of what is factually NOT working until better data and methodology is put into practice.

We have abided by and trusted the methodology for years now all hoping for better stock biomass as we were told the cuts and size increases would provide. It has NOT and now we say enough as what the data says is not consistent with what is seen on the water and even if the data were somehow correct then the methodology is really NOT working so time to STOP and re think it.

We (the loudest) have proven our dedication to Fishery Conservation and Ocean Stewardship now we want the same from the Agencies that govern it.

[Ttmako]

^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^

[Rocky]

Amen Dale. ;)

Anyone who can defend the current process that has led us down this road of mis-management and still doesn't get it.... never will. :(

[hammer4reel]

Once again, not necessarily disagreeing with the principle of a slot limit, but your proposal would keep us in compliance for about 30 days. Size and time are the only ways to regulate the harvest, if you tweak one the other gets shifted as well.


thats were your wrong, harvest is based on WEIGHT not the amount of fish caught.
smaller fish in the 16 inch range weigh less than a third of a 19" fish.
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What I def dont agree with is that there are less fluke around than in years past.
even guys who arent catching keepers are catching 50 fish a day. just that they dont meet the SIZE limit.
yet your charged with mortality weights on some of those throw backs.
If guys kept three smaller fish they wouldnt have to keep fishing through the other 47 fluke.

AS I posted before , guys willing to burn gas have no problem catching well over a limit of fluke even at 19"
heck on a tourney day we almost always catch a boat limit with HOURS left in the fishing day, throwing many fish back over 3 pounds looking for a money fish.

There is no lack of fluke in our waters. and there are plenty of guys fishing that are catching the same or even better than my crew does.


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[Solemate]

Totally want to see slot fish on Fluke. Sorry to all the trophy hinters but since it is a weight restrction I would rather see 4 at 14-18 than any over 18. Lets keep the big breeders breeding.

[reason162]

thats were your wrong, harvest is based on WEIGHT not the amount of fish caught.
smaller fish in the 16 inch range weigh less than a third of a 19" fish.

Until larger fish count "more" than smaller fish, a slot limit that encompasses 16" fluke will be filled in 30 days or less. People are not limiting out on a regular basis @18", and fewer still will do so @19". But allow people to keep 16" fish and see how many limits you'll have across the board.

Under the current management regime, your slot limit will trade size for season length to stay in compliance, just as my initial post stated.

[fishguy]

"smaller fish in the 16 inch range weigh less than a third of a 19" fish."
Not so. Anyway...

My slot idea would reduce total daily poundage bc it's 2 @ 16-20, 2 @ 20-24 and one over 24.

More people will take home more fish but a likely outcome is the total poundage would be less. Lots of smaller fish go home but only 2 of them. limiting on 2 @ 20-24" would be a lot harder and less likely and only allowing for one truly big fish would help cut back on taking the big breeder fish.

I can honestly say under these rules I would probably never keep a doormat again if I was confident it would survive release. (Unless it was for a really big ass pool)

And here's another possible scenario on a party boat. The pool leader gets weighed right away and the boat makes sure everyone knows that weight. If they catch a contender over 24" but it doesn't take the lead maybe they throw it back to get another shot at the pool. Something far more likely if they got 2 @ 16-20 in the cooler already. My 2 cents.

[NoLimit]

Give me 3 slot fish and that will be two more than my average on keepers last year. Considering I had to release 10-15 with a couple that swallowed the hook, the fish stocks and me will be far better off.

[hammer4reel]

Until larger fish count "more" than smaller fish, a slot limit that encompasses 16" fluke will be filled in 30 days or less. People are not limiting out on a regular basis @18", and fewer still will do so @19". But allow people to keep 16" fish and see how many limits you'll have across the board.

Under the current management regime, your slot limit will trade size for season length to stay in compliance, just as my initial post stated.

your statement is only half logical according to current accounting methods.
sure many guys would catch a limit of the slot fish. and take 3 fish in that size home.
but after catching 3 of those small fish they are done except for bigger fish. MANY guys would just stop fishing, happy they have three for dinner

currently those same guys are catching 50 of that size fish, throwing back every one of them, and getting charged for 10 of them dying on release.
and they didnt take a single fish home.

with it going to 19 there is going to be even more throw back mortality counted against us.
IMO if im getting charged with poundage it should be fish I am keeping.

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