Recreational catch numbers

[dakota560]

This isn't a fishing report but thought it would be a good topic in light of the recent discussions regarding fluke regulations and the upcoming council meeting on 1/5/17. I've always wondered how harvest numbers for recreational anglers are arrived at annually. I understand for commercial guys there's an FVTR (Fishing Vessel Trip Report) which is required to be filled when the boat docks with their catch but how does NOAA or NMFS arrive at recreational catch. I've been fishing for the better part of fifty years and have been surveyed twice in my life. Once after returning from a canyon trip and once in the fall after a black fish trip. Does anyone have any idea how annual fluke catch numbers are arrived at for the recreational sector?

[tjd24]

Not me.
I've been fishing inshore and offshore for almost 50 years myself and I've never been surveyed. I've been stopped by the USCG for Safety Inspections many times and had the NJDEP CO's check my fish box at a fuel dock once.
I'd love to know how catch numbers are determined too.

[dakota560]

Found this after I posted my initial question about how recreational catch numbers are arrived at annually.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/sfa/management/recreational/documents/2014_summit_surveys_overview_final.pdf

It amazes me how the powers to be can spin doctor an article to make it sound like this method of data collection is almost an exact science. As I said, I've been fishing for fifty years and other than a few isolated instances many years ago have never seen a surveyor while fishing or back at the docks. I know it can't be easy quantifying recreational harvest since there's so many variables involved, weather, location of survey, angler skills, time of trip, time of season, sea conditions etc. but I wonder just how representative the numbers NOAA publishes every year are. If anyone were to survey fluke anglers early in the spring fishing Sandy Hook and the surrounding area, they'd draw one conclusion of overall landings based on some method of extrapolation. Interview ocean based anglers at the same time and you would arrive at a completely different result based on the same method of extrapolation due to colder water conditions. Same holds true later in the season when the protected waters warm and fluke move out of the bays to deeper water. Interview the same anglers and you would most likely have completely opposite results. That attribute alone could skew survey results immeasurably.

The sad part about all this is the methods use to frame out our fishery can be manipulated across the spectrum to arrive at any desired result the powers to be wish. And in our case the desired result does not factor in the God given right the public has to a public resource! It's being destroyed and sold to the highest bidder while NOAA / NMFS support that cause with no governance and BS data. Maybe it's time for a Tea Party!

[Capt. Lou]

I've been actively saltwater fishing a lifetime , owned 9 boats, most notable to me was the fisheries sending a college student to interview us getting off a Mass based PB that specialized in Cod trips during the 90's .
We were simply asked how many we caught , to my recollection there was not a limit in those days in that region.
Twice more once in Snrewsbury River & another in SR when my boats were docked there , both fluke checks by MP / CO .
That's it over that time frame , so,where do you think catch / landing numbers come from on rec side , take a guess, it seems they do . :D

[hammer4reel]

They go up to the guys carrying the heaviest cooler of fish down the dock.
Them multiply that by how ever many guys they see . Fisherman or not.
Biggest farce is when they show us pounding fish during weeks that were totally unfishable.
A dart board would be a more accurate method.


I have been surveyed a few times. The last being a year or two ago pulling the boat at the end of a black fishing day.
That surveyor actually measured and weighed every fish in the cooler.


When we are surveyed for the for hire data.
They only ask how many times the boat fished with paying clients, NEVER what we fished for or what we caught.
A total waste of a phone call

[Joey Dah Fish]

They make up what ever numbers they like.

[Capt Joe]

This isn't a fishing report but thought it would be a good topic in light of the recent discussions regarding fluke regulations and the upcoming council meeting on 1/5/17. I've always wondered how harvest numbers for recreational anglers are arrived at annually. I understand for commercial guys there's an FVTR (Fishing Vessel Trip Report) which is required to be filled when the boat docks with their catch but how does NOAA or NMFS arrive at recreational catch.

There is a FVTR also for Party Boats. Useless and meaningless. Like someone said ask two guys there catch multiply by number of anglers. Don't think they are not watching fishing reports also.
Numbers are a total crock of shit.

[Jpell15]

I too always wondered how they determined the number of fish caught.....I've never been asked or surveyed, and for a fishery like the offshore seabass do they just assume the boat limits every trip? Do they factor in days lost to weather?

[Peterooster]

Tom and I have been surveyed about once a season at our slip, surveyor will measure and weigh all Fluke record phone numbers for a possible future check.

With 20 to 25 trips a season thats not a good count, they must guess. Pete

[jakesdad]

In the past 20 years I have been surveyed twice. First time was at my dock in Belmar. Surveyor was on dock when we came in, and asked if he could ask some questions. He counted catch approx 25 that day. Asked how many times a week we fished. It was then we realized he was then counting the number of boats on my dock. Number now became 25 fish times my 3 times a week times the number of boats on my dock every week for the entire season.

This past summer a young man showed up at my dock on a day it was blowing 25 to 30 NE. My friend Ron and I had anchored up in Shark River for a few hours. He asked if he could question us, and he thought some questions might be strange. He also told us we could ask him to leave at any time.

Question 1- He was there when we docked, How many people fished with you today.

Question 2 - Is this a party, charter or private boat (I own a 25 Parker)

Question 3 - Where did you fish today. My answer blowing NE 25 -30 we fished the river

Question 4 - What river did you fish Manasquan, Shark River or the Navasink.

At this point I responded this is stupid, time for you to leave.

Never once did he ask what we where fishing for , any legal fish or how many shorts. If this is a proper survey for catch numbers you got me.

[Inishmore3]

I was questioned once after a Blackfish trip in Lewes, Delaware. I had one keeper. The person from NOAA wanted to ask me about my one fish. I told her there were about six people poaching at the breakwater wall. She did not care. I told her to call the Coast Guard or Police. She did not care. Those folks were keeping anything that swam. Drove a small boat out to a pen in the water and drove back. The NOAA representative did not care and did not want to hear it. That is the truth.

So when Fluke fishing as you know it ends and it will. All the petitions, letters and marches lead to nothing. Deep down you know it will be two fluke at nineteen inches. It will stay that way until the end of time. Winter Flounder will always be two fish. Sea Bass will get worse. Blackfish will get worse. Ling will be fished out.

When all this happens. Just remember my sad but true story from October 2010 in Lewes, Delaware. I tried to turn in poachers and the NOAA representative did not care and did not want to hear it.

I hope all your efforts do not go to waste. Hopefully somebody listens to you. I think deep down you know what is going to happen to this business. It's truly sad.

[Ttmako]

The plot thickens.
I've been fluke fishing for over 35 years.
The only surveys I get are related to shark/tuna.
None have ever been about anything other.

So where are they getting these numbers from?

[dakota560]

It's sad that these are in part the numbers which regulate our past time and handcuff our quotas . From the responses it sounds as if the annual recreational harvest appears to be as scientific as throwing darts at a board under the veil of statistical analysis. It's all BS. A handful of college students, a few more volunteers who place phone calls and ask the wrong questions, these are the efforts put forth to attain harvest numbers. As I said I'm sure it's no easy task but if a governing body is tasked with regulating such an important public resource they should also be tasked with utilizing acceptable and representative methods of quantifying the data they're using as a means of managing that resource.

What's more amazing about all this is we all know where the Salt Water Registry is going. Talk about insult to injury! We'll soon have nothing left to fish for but we'll be able to pump millions if not billions into the general fund so those funds can be used against us. It has absolutely gone from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I hope the upcoming meeting mirrors the crowds at Time Square on New Year's Eve. Everyone who signs up for the Fluke Masters Tournament in Sandy Hook or the Grandpa Savino tournament should be in attendance because 3 or 5 fish tournaments are about to be history! People will be talking about them the way we talk about the once amazing whiting and ling fishery. They'll be eliminated! If the recreational community including anglers, sponsors, charter and party boat captains, tackle representative, government representatives, bait and tackle shop owners, and any supplier ancillary to this industry can't attend as a show of support truthfully we deserve whatever fate is forced upon us.

Just a thought which I hope would work in our favor. If anyone has or knows anyone with influence to some of our local TV station or even network TV, it would be great to have coverage of this event AS LONG as there's a strong turnout. In an area as populated as ours, we should have 10,000 people at this meeting without a problem. We talk about losing our pastime and at the same time cross our fingers that we have 500 people. There's more than 500 people at the Elk's and FSOS after parties every year for shit sake! If we can't take the time to support what arguably is one of the most important things in our life and in our children's lives than we literally don't have a leg to stand on.

I hope 1/5/17 is a watershed event and one we can be proud of. I'll be driving down from West Orange if anyone in that area is interested in car pooling. I have a Jeep Cherokee and can fit probably three or four other people if anyone is interested in attending but needs transportation. If so, PM me and we can coordinate when and where to meet.

Hope should not be our strategy and if it is it will be a failed one. Show you support, get in your car or find someone else willing to provide transportation, attend this meeting and let the ^&%$#@$ bureaucrats know your opinion matters!

[Detour66]

I have been approached at the AH ramp many times by CO's asking me to open up my fish box. And at one time there where people with clip boards at the AH ramp asking about catching info. They where hired by the state. I wouldn't be surprised if they visit all the fishing sites online and see all the great reports of people limiting out and draw a conclusion from that. The truth is people who limit out are the sharpies and the average fisherman does ok at best!