Emergency Action on Blueline Tile

[aduma1107]

Frigging absolute joke. 3-5 years ago they had no idea what a Tile fish looked like. Screwed again by the commercial guys.


http://www.app.com/story/sports/outdoors/fishing/hook-line-and-sinker/2015/02/25/fishing-tilefish-emergency-overfished/24022079/

[Joey Dah Fish]

I guess we are going to have Tilapia :)

[kurtisb]

Frigging absolute joke. 3-5 years ago they had no idea what a Tile fish looked like. Screwed again by the commercial guys.


http://www.app.com/story/sports/outdoors/fishing/hook-line-and-sinker/2015/02/25/fishing-tilefish-emergency-overfished/24022079/

Emergency regs because NJ has no regs on tile fish and the NC commercial fleet was planning to targeting them. This is a good thing, I think?

[Dave A]

Emergency regs because NJ has no regs on tile fish and the NC commercial fleet was planning to targeting them. This is a good thing, I think?

How is that a good thing? There was NO rec bag limit and now we are reduced to 7 per trip. All based on a questionable stock assessment done by the South Atlantic Marine Fisheries Council in 2011 and conducted in the waters south of North Carolina. Meanwhile, in the Gulf of Mexico the rec bag limit is 20 per day not to exceed 40 per trip per person.

[PaBeerGuy]

WOW, what a disgrace. One of the few (maybe only) fish left that was unregulated by the Feds. What will this do to the few boats that run Tile trips?:(

[Capt Sal]

Screwed again! Just close it down with out having to answer to anybody. Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Fisheries Management...... Think about it for a minute. These people are paid to manage fisheries so what do you think they are doing to do?? They are going to manage fisheries, even ones that don't need to be managed.

If you go for a consultation to a surgeon, chances are they are going to want to do surgery. But in this case you have the ability to get 2nd opinions or seek other alternatives to surgery...

As Sal said " close it down with out having to answer to anybody. Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Who do these people have to answer to?? What are the check and balances?? Do they take into consideration other opinions or solutions?? Not based on what I see.... Yes, in some cases they have the obiligatory public comment meetings but it seems to me their mind is already made up and nothing we say matters.... They have all the power and......

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[bunker dunker]

its all about the $$$$.when I saw the fluke @ 20 something a pound and the sea bass at the same its a wonder that we can even fish for them.think of the cut the gov gets on that.

[Flukinator]

Definitely a bummer. But you had to expect if they were going to regulate the coms (the guys with more money and power), they were going to push back and make them regulate the recs, too. Regulating the coms is good, because this is such a specific fishery in such specific areas, it seems like it would be scarily easy for them to wipe out. I could even be okay with maybe a better number per fisherman for a recreational regulation. Hope they get smarter with how they regulate, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Capt. Debbie]

Not sure how NJ regs would work in fish ONLY available over 3 miles offshore like tilefish.

NJ has no jurisdiction or enforcement authority beyond 3 miles from the NJ beaches. Only the Feds do.


Emergency regs because NJ has no regs on tile fish and the NC commercial fleet was planning to targeting them. This is a good thing, I think?

[Capt. Debbie]

Like the 10 bluefish rule. I hate rules but this is hardly the crap catch limits we get with NJ winter flounder.




How is that a good thing? There was NO rec bag limit and now we are reduced to 7 per trip. All based on a questionable stock assessment done by the South Atlantic Marine Fisheries Council in 2011 and conducted in the waters south of North Carolina. Meanwhile, in the Gulf of Mexico the rec bag limit is 20 per day not to exceed 40 per trip per person.

[Capt Sal]

What ever state a commercial vessel is registered in should be the only state they can off load. North Carolina boat coming here to fish federal waters up north? If a New York party boat is more than three miles off our coast they are in federal waters. There black fish season starts earlier than ours and there is nothing we can do about it. When they were in Jersey waters when our season was not open yet nothing was being done about it by our NJ Div of Fish and Game officers. Yea,the same guys that would check you at the dock because it is easier!
Makes me wonder if we are ever going to win one in the near future. We are so use to losing that we are almost willing to accept it. Could you just imagine spending your life savings on a off shore party boat and they hit you with a closure like this? Not exactly the best time to get into the for hire sport fishing scene! I have to give a lot of credit to the party and charter boat captains that keep fighting back and refuse to go out of business.

[PAMonger]

I don't see a big problem with it. Tilefish are slow to grow and reproduce. If you get more than 7 tilefish, you are having a phenomenal day and I hope you have one serious vacuum sealer.

[Joey Dah Fish]

I don't see a big problem with it. Tilefish are slow to grow and reproduce. If you get more than 7 tilefish, you are having a phenomenal day and I hope you have one serious vacuum sealer.

Agreed but !!!! A big but!!! As Dave I and talked about some boats make a 2 day trip. Why not make it a per day total as opposed to a per trip total. These guys make long drives and are conserving fuel etc trying to give the anglers more hours of fishing better odds etc. I think this rule of per trip hurts them. After all it's not a hop skip and jump to the grounds.

[Capt Joe]

Party and Charter boat Captains must learn how to fill out their VTR properly!;)

[tautog]

all those VTRs are safely stored in the same warehouse as the Arc of the Covenant.

[Dave A]

I don't see a big problem with it. Tilefish are slow to grow and reproduce. If you get more than 7 tilefish, you are having a phenomenal day and I hope you have one serious vacuum sealer.

We are talking about blueline tilefish. They average 5lbs, not much bigger then the offshore sea bass.:confused:

[Tunarun]

Originally Posted by PAMonger View Post
I don't see a big problem with it. Tilefish are slow to grow and reproduce. If you get more than 7 tilefish, you are having a phenomenal day and I hope you have one serious vacuum sealer.


We are talking about blueline tilefish. They average 5lbs, not much bigger then the offshore sea bass.:confused:
Thanks Dave, that was Perfect!! Dennis

[Capt Sal]

I don't see a big problem with it. Tilefish are slow to grow and reproduce. If you get more than 7 tilefish, you are having a phenomenal day and I hope you have one serious vacuum sealer.

Offshore 100 miles and limited amount of people on the PB. Expensive and not for everyone. How can we recreational fisherman have an affect that would warrant a reduction like this? Sure isn't anything like fluking in the summer with the amount of angler participation. I started tile fishing in the early seventies with Capt. Lou Puskas on the Gracee 111 out of Barnegat with my dad . Great fishing and I believe there may have been more interest in Tile fishing years ago than today. I think you should do more home work on this subject IMHO. Would you go 80 mi. off shore and be happy with 10 sea bass and your done in one hour?

[Chico]

I think it is a good thing that they are regulating the commercial boats, we all know what happens when only $$$$$ is involved, greed takes over and it is easy for them to wipe out a fishery in no time. Making us pay for their greed is typical of todays "management". One bluelinetile caught by a rec fisherman, has a MUCH bigger financial return to our economy than when that fish is caught by a comm. Everyone from the local motels, eateries, tackle shops, bait and ice suppliers, charter/party boat owners, and their employees, as well as all the manufacturers of the fishing tackle we use all benefit when that tilefish is caught by a rec fisherman. For hire boats want to ensure that the fishery remains healthy for the benefit of their livelihood, commercial boats want to get as many fish in the boat as possible before another boat gets to them first. Just watch "Alaska Fish Wars" TV show and you see the mentality. Limits are not a bad thing, even for recs, but they must take into account firsts and foremost, the reality of fish stocks as well as financial impact on the local economies.

[Tunarun]

Offshore 100 miles and limited amount of people on the PB. Expensive and not for everyone. How can we recreational fisherman have an affect that would warrant a reduction like this? Sure isn't anything like fluking in the summer with the amount of angler participation. I started tile fishing in the early seventies with Capt. Lou Puskas on the Gracee 111 out of Barnegat with my dad . Great fishing and I believe there may have been more interest in Tile fishing years ago than today. I think you should do more home work on this subject IMHO. Would you go 80 mi. off shore and be happy with 10 sea bass and your done in one hour?


Thanks Capt for a Great Response too! I truly want to express what this blueline action means to me and the select following of anglers but I should know better...but I have to say something, it's just me. At times, catching bluelines can be like catching cbass n porgies when conditions are good so one looks forward to have something to bite after hours of drifting in the Deep for the elusive Goldens and catching Zippo! When Jeff finally has enough of catching nothing on drops that have produced time and time before but not today, and says Enough!, we know what that means. We will be heading to something shallower, like 450 feet +/-, yes, we call that Shallower and it's game on! So allowing us to only box 7 for a 1 day thru a 2 1/2 day trip is Ludacris! This fish is Not Endangered by us, the recreational angler and doesn't need to be protected by the folks sitting behind desks and making decisions that impacts the Livelihood of Jeff and other Captains and our Love. I said this recently, if only our fore fathers would have included this in the Second Amendment in 1791, [B][I]freedom to keep fish using hook and string(line) along with the right to keep and bear arms! Dennis

[Gerry Zagorski]

i think it is a good thing that they are regulating the commercial boats, we all know what happens when only $$$$$ is involved, greed takes over and it is easy for them to wipe out a fishery in no time. Making us pay for their greed is typical of todays "management". One bluelinetile caught by a rec fisherman, has a much bigger financial return to our economy than when that fish is caught by a comm. Everyone from the local motels, eateries, tackle shops, bait and ice suppliers, charter/party boat owners, and their employees, as well as all the manufacturers of the fishing tackle we use all benefit when that tilefish is caught by a rec fisherman. For hire boats want to ensure that the fishery remains healthy for the benefit of their livelihood, commercial boats want to get as many fish in the boat as possible before another boat gets to them first. Just watch "alaska fish wars" tv show and you see the mentality. Limits are not a bad thing, even for recs, but they must take into account firsts and foremost, the reality of fish stocks as well as financial impact on the local economies.

yes!!

[reason162]

Why wait until there's scarcity to impose bag limits? It really is a lose-lose, considering the prevailing opinion re the "science." If the science says stocks are threatened, the science is questioned, or it's just the "feds/big gov" regulation.

There should be bag limits on all species, including sea robins, blowfish ----- everything. Nothing wrong with preemptive conservation, and it sends the (correct) message that every species is valuable to the ecosystem, regardless of its perceived food value to anglers/consumers.

[Capt Sal]

Did you know there are no bones in ice cream? You know enough about this tread to ignored!

[Dave A]

Why wait until there's scarcity to impose bag limits? It really is a lose-lose, considering the prevailing opinion re the "science." If the science says stocks are threatened, the science is questioned, or it's just the "feds/big gov" regulation.

There should be bag limits on all species, including sea robins, blowfish ----- everything. Nothing wrong with preemptive conservation, and it sends the (correct) message that every species is valuable to the ecosystem, regardless of its perceived food value to anglers/consumers.

In this case, you sir have no clue! There was NO SCIENCE involved here. Let me repeat it, NO SCIENCE involved. Decisions were made based upon a very questionable stock assessment done in the South Atlantic in 2011. This assessment did not include any of the mid Atlantic canyons. Limits for both commercial and recreational fishermen are necessary BUT they must be based on accurate, reliable science.

[reason162]

In this case, you sir have no clue! There was NO SCIENCE involved here. Let me repeat it, NO SCIENCE involved. Decisions were made based upon a very questionable stock assessment done in the South Atlantic in 2011. This assessment did not include any of the mid Atlantic canyons. Limits for both commercial and recreational fishermen are necessary BUT they must be based on accurate, reliable science.

I was simply pointing out the easy dismissal of the science on this board (and others) even when it's available. If it doesn't agree with preconceived notions/interests...the science must be flawed. Given your premise, if they fail to ever scrape the money together to do a thorough survey in the canyons, no regulations should ever exist. I think that's tomfoolery.

My second point was you don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits on any species, but rather you impose bag limits simply as a matter of conservation principle. Any species is a finite resource, and waiting until there's scarcity to impose limits is just bad policy.

[kurtisb]

I read all the data that was presented and listened to the 2 1/2 hour meeting.

This is all because the commercial guys targeted bluelines last year for the first time. Their take in 2014 increased by a factor of 20 fold over 2013.

They also indicated that they will target them again and land them in NJ because they have no regs.

NJ was asked to put in place regs to keep it a bye catch species at 300 lbs per day but NJ said they cannot do that in time.

Delaware is some how putting regs in place this year as did MD and VA in 2012.

This is a long lived late spawning species that can be destroyed in a short time.

No one wants bluelines to be a commercial targeted species and everyone wants them to stay a bye catch species.

Unfortunately this commitee feels that if the take away from the commercial boats, they must also take away from the recreational boats as well.

[dales529]

I was simply pointing out the easy dismissal of the science on this board (and others) even when it's available. If it doesn't agree with preconceived notions/interests...the science must be flawed. Given your premise, if they fail to ever scrape the money together to do a thorough survey in the canyons, no regulations should ever exist. I think that's tomfoolery.

My second point was you don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits on any species, but rather you impose bag limits simply as a matter of conservation principle. Any species is a finite resource, and waiting until there's scarcity to impose limits is just bad policy.

Really? Please help me understand what available science that isn't admitted as flawed by the same governing powers that administer the regulations (Not us) exists. Also explain "easy dismissal" by this board and others. Are you stating we accept science that states overfishing is NOT occurring and the species is NOT overfished but an arbitrary demand of a 33% reduction (Seabass just one example) or worse complete closure is somehow acceptable and not subject to dismissal. Do you mean that Science?

More concerning is your "don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits". Tell that to the people you put out of business. Define reasonable bag limits without "reasonable" or any data. Species although finite to a degree also DO police themselves much like recreational fishermen. If a species is not found in its habitat from previous years does that mean that's its Gone or has it adjusted to new habitat areas. I guess Hurricane Sandy , Bait migrations changes in weather / water temp patterns, lack of boater participation etc etc have nothing to do with anything right. How without Data do you call anything Science or worse say we dismiss it?

[Capt Sal]

I was simply pointing out the easy dismissal of the science on this board (and others) even when it's available. If it doesn't agree with preconceived notions/interests...the science must be flawed. Given your premise, if they fail to ever scrape the money together to do a thorough survey in the canyons, no regulations should ever exist. I think that's tomfoolery.

My second point was you don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits on any species, but rather you impose bag limits simply as a matter of conservation principle. Any species is a finite resource, and waiting until there's scarcity to impose limits is just bad policy.

Listen my friend! No one is trying to discredit you. You just have to do more home work and then you will see this is flawed as almost every thing fisheries management has touched. Also look at it from the perspective of a party boat owner. Panic,no science and too much power. This is what we have and will have for quite some time. It will take quite some time to rectify the system that is in place now. There is no way on gods green earth that a party boat could have an impact on Blueline Tile!!!!!!!!!!

[reason162]

Really? Please help me understand what available science that isn't admitted as flawed by the same governing powers that administer the regulations (Not us) exists. Also explain "easy dismissal" by this board and others. Are you stating we accept science that states overfishing is NOT occurring and the species is NOT overfished but an arbitrary demand of a 33% reduction (Seabass just one example) or worse complete closure is somehow acceptable and not subject to dismissal. Do you mean that Science?

More concerning is your "don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits". Tell that to the people you put out of business. Define reasonable bag limits without "reasonable" or any data. Species although finite to a degree also DO police themselves much like recreational fishermen. If a species is not found in its habitat from previous years does that mean that's its Gone or has it adjusted to new habitat areas. I guess Hurricane Sandy , Bait migrations changes in weather / water temp patterns, lack of boater participation etc etc have nothing to do with anything right. How without Data do you call anything Science or worse say we dismiss it?

We simply disagree on what "default" rules should be, in the absence of data. Imo, there ought to be a bag limit on everything, and in the case of blue line tile it wouldn't be a decision made in perfect vacuum, since we do know something about its biology/reproductive rate. I find it very reasonable to impose a default bag limit on newly exploited species while (hopefully) the science is being conducted.

You seem to think that the default rules ought be zero limits, until the data is in. That's fine, but consider in retrospect the days before any size/bag regulations: winter flounder stacked to the brim by the bucketload, hundred-lb gunnysack of bluefish etc etc...your argument would apply in exactly the same way to that obscenity.

[reason162]

Listen my friend! No one is trying to discredit you.

I didn't think anyone was trying to do that.

[jjdbike]

Thanks for posting and the explanations. I don;t understand why the regulators feel that if they regulate the commercials they also need to limit the recreational guys. They can't nearly be harvesting on a similar scale.
On a practical note, what can should we do about this? Do we rec guys have any power to effect change on this and should we try?
Thanks.
JD

[Dave A]

I was simply pointing out the easy dismissal of the science on this board (and others) even when it's available. If it doesn't agree with preconceived notions/interests...the science must be flawed. Given your premise, if they fail to ever scrape the money together to do a thorough survey in the canyons, no regulations should ever exist. I think that's tomfoolery.

My second point was you don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits on any species, but rather you impose bag limits simply as a matter of conservation principle. Any species is a finite resource, and waiting until there's scarcity to impose limits is just bad policy.

Here is the problem with arbitrary bag limits; if and when a cutback is actually needed the cutback comes off the arbitrary bag limit. For example, we have had an arbitrary 3 fish bag limit on yellowfin tuna for many years. There has been some backroom talk about cutting back by possibly as much as 50%. Suddenly we are down to 1 1/2 fish per person. If the fish is 50-60lbs that is still plenty of meat but when they are 20-30lb fish not so much. Factor in trip expenses and this will keep people from fishing. Just look at the whole sea bass mess. We have the most extreme restrictions now that they are rebuilt then we had when the stocks were at their lowest levels, same thing with fluke.

[Dave A]

I read all the data that was presented and listened to the 2 1/2 hour meeting.

This is all because the commercial guys targeted bluelines last year for the first time. Their take in 2014 increased by a factor of 20 fold over 2013.

They also indicated that they will target them again and land them in NJ because they have no regs.

NJ was asked to put in place regs to keep it a bye catch species at 300 lbs per day but NJ said they cannot do that in time.

Delaware is some how putting regs in place this year as did MD and VA in 2012.

This is a long lived late spawning species that can be destroyed in a short time.

No one wants bluelines to be a commercial targeted species and everyone wants them to stay a bye catch species.

Unfortunately this commitee feels that if the take away from the commercial boats, they must also take away from the recreational boats as well.

Just so everyone understands, these are not NJ commercial boats, these are North Carolina longline boats. NY and NJ tilefish boats do not target blueline tiles, only goldens (declared fully rebuilt in 2014).

[Dave A]

Thanks for posting and the explanations. I don;t understand why the regulators feel that if they regulate the commercials they also need to limit the recreational guys. They can't nearly be harvesting on a similar scale.
On a practical note, what can should we do about this? Do we rec guys have any power to effect change on this and should we try?
Thanks.
JD

I don't know if it will help or not but I suggest contacting the fisheries people that work for your US Senators and Congressmen and make them aware of the fact that these arbitrary bag limits were derived without a stock assessment done in the mid Atlantic canyons. The stock assessment conducted on bluelines was completed in 2011 and only encompasses the areas south of North Carolina.

[Tunarun]

I don't know if it will help or not but I suggest contacting the fisheries people that work for your US Senators and Congressmen and make them aware of the fact that these arbitrary bag limits were derived without a stock assessment done in the mid Atlantic canyons. The stock assessment conducted on bluelines was completed in 2011 and only encompasses the areas south of North Carolina.

Here's a little excerpt from Capt Monty of the Morning Star. I can't imagine how many emails, phone calls or trips to Washington he has made to get his cbass fishing back. That's his Livelihood but who knows for sure how much longer... I know we are discussing bluelines but it's all the same issue. Where are facts to backup the cuts? One specie(BLT) isn't overfished and a limit is imposed, the other specie(cbass) stock is back, yet, further cuts are going to be imposed. I've always said, numbers don't lie, so where are they getting there's?
Monty's words are below.

If you saw a crew-member of your favorite party or charter boat roadside & broken-down, you'd probably stop to help.
If your buddy who takes you out on his Grady-White needed a hand - you'd help.
If you're in the fishing industry; for Pete's sake, take a few minutes to help yourself.
In much less time than it would take to give a buddy a lift, or help change a flat, you can look up your Washington, DC representatives and give the whole industry a hand. The contact info is below:

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Like Dave said and Monty has been saying over and over again, we need to get the Government to see the real facts and how these regulations affect us and the businesses who are affected by their decisions. Dennis

[MDeSi]

"My second point was you don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits on any species"

This may be the craziest thing I've seen posted on this board.

[Capt Sal]

"My second point was you don't need data to impose reasonable bag limits on any species"

This may be the craziest thing I've seen posted on this board.

Define reasonable please.

[Capt. Lou]

This contact info should be constantly used to enlighten ur congressman, reps etc!
However it's much easier to bitch than write each one a short note on issues that concern all anglers! It's the Tile anglers this time but we're all in it .
If u wish to keep seasons u must participate , or else the PETA people will get their way & you'll be golfing !
They R organized & will beat u ,if u as fisherman contuine to remain indifferent! It's that simple !!
In fact might serve all well if someone could post this info to contact politicians regularly on this site .
Then al u have to do is e mail a response , otherwise nothing happens.
Maybe we should have a fisheries heading to address each issue as it requires letter writing etc .
Not sure how many members on site, but if 50% respond it's better than it is now.:cool:

[Joey Dah Fish]

Well Capt Lou and Company I just spent 15 minutes and sent an email to my rep. Regarding two things. The proposed dredge of Manquan Ridge and the reef area for beach replenishment as well as the tile fish regs. I hope more of you do the same. It's a great cause and one that is very near and dear to us here in the fishing community.

[Capt. Lou]

Good deal I would like to read several hundred responses on this site that anglers followed thru & contacted their officials . If we do this regularly u can get their attention just like the other side who always find time to get involved. :cool:

[Capt. Lou]

I know in PA my home state it's not a big issue & probably not a priority but even though I send letters once a month ! Knock on any door enough & someone will open it !

[Tunarun]

I sent a letter to my Rep and I live in Delaware. Hopefully, I'll get a response other than the automated one I got, saying it was received. Dennis

[Tunarun]

I found these contacts on the other forum.
John Bullard is the key guy, but here are some of the other players above, below and around him, starting from the top.

Eileen Sobeck
Assistant Administrator for Fisheries
eileen.sobeck@noaa.gov
301-427-8000

Samuel D. Rauch III
Deputy Assistant Administrator for Regulatory Programs
samuel.rauch@noaa.gov
301-427-8000

Kate Naughten
Director, Office of Communications and External Affairs
kate.naughten@noaa.gov
301-427-8057

Alan D. Risenhoover
Director, Office of Sustainable Fisheries
alan.risenhoover@noaa.gov
301-427-8500

John K. Bullard
Regional Administrator, Greater Atlantic Region
john.bullard@noaa.gov
978-281-9250

Douglas Potts
Fishery Policy Analyst
douglas.potts@noaa.gov
978-281-9341

Mr Bullard,
I am writing you as a concerned fisherman regarding the recent proposal on the limit/potential closure of Blueline Tilefish off the eastern seaboard. Upon hearing the proposal, I was absolutely shocked that such drastic measures were being considered. I feel as though the proposed regulations were not formed on accurate data. The proposed single fish limit is extreme and not needed. Such a regulation would have largely negative ramifications on recreational fishermen and is very much a gross oversight as it pertains to maintaining a healthy biomass of the species. My desire is to not see such regulations come to fruition. Thank you for your consideration on this matter.

Sincerely,

[NAME]
[Resident of <insert state>]
[Contact info]

[Capt Sal]

Good deal I would like to read several hundred responses on this site that anglers followed thru & contacted their officials . If we do this regularly u can get their attention just like the other side who always find time to get involved. :cool:

Although there are people on this site that that are informed and have a good idea about what is going on with fisheries management,they are the minority not the majority. Most of the people I would have conversations with while on a charter did not have a clue or felt it was up to the for hire capts. to do all the work. Like I said ''most'' people. There are some people on this site other than for hire Capts. that truly care and go to meetings and fight for all of us. Just like the commercial=An educated consumer is our best customer!