This Week in Fisheries Management, on Facebook Nevertheless...

[Reel Class]

This is somewhat connected to Jerry's post below, but I really think this deserves a separate thread so the NJF community can see what's going on on the "outside."

I got involved in 2 discussions on facebook, as did some other posters on here, regarding regulations with striped bass. I'm not going to mention any names, or the names of the "groups" that the posts were within, but some of the things I read were incredibly disturbing. Most of these posts I read were extremely biased in the direction of MORE CONSERVATION in regulating stripers. As has been the case for decades, certain "groups" of anglers truly believe striped bass need to be regulated in a fashion where it's nearly impossible to keep any fish for subsistence, since, for them, they don't keep bass and basically release everything they catch.

Here are some of the things I read, in response to not only my replies or questions, but just generalized comments (again, I'm loosely quoting and even paraphrasing what I read and I'm not using any names, but what I'm writing gives you the "gist" of what these anglers are saying):

-"We should go vigilante and enforce regulations on our own."
-"We should pressure on both recreational and commercial fishermen by meeting them on docks and beaches and letting them know that it's unacceptable to keep killing bass."
-"Is it legal to make a citizen's arrest of a poacher?"
-"You're a for hire boat, and all for-hire boats, and 'chattahs' (stated by a guy from MA/RI that obviously has an issue with charter or for hire boats) and all for-hire guys could care less about the fish... All you care about is your livelihood and $$$."

And, some of the real outspoken guys made statements like:

-"Stripers are terribly mismanaged - the next moratorium is coming in 5 years!!"
-"Special interests in regulating striped bass need to be stopped!"
-Several said something along the lines of -- I'm dedicating my life to protecting striped bass!!

Some of their proposals:

1 fish @ 36"
1 fish @ 32"

And the like...

Some of the things I (and other like minded individuals) said, and objectively questioned - and stated MANY times in different ways:

-Where's the data that supports your claims?
-Who are you to question someone's livelihood?
-If a group of people was looking to take your livelihood away, what would you do? (directed at guys NOT in the industry)

I'm all for conservation, but these guys are out of line. Even worse, they have no data that support their claims - they simply are ingrained in learning that the stocks are falling apart, and they are making a real case (because they're given a voice!) for why these fish should be regulated further! The fact is, data supports the regs (which, within themselves suck!!!!) and data that supports a shutdown or some crazy, draconian closure does not.

As many pro's & guys that actually get it say, and I'm quoting my good friend Jerry P, "FISH HAVE FINS, THEY SWIM TO OTHER PLACES" -- the fish move... Their migration routes change, and we don't always get to actually see these fish. Some years you see loads of fish on the beach, other years you see the bass out in the mud hole, and they never come NEAR the 3 mile line. So when you get a couple of "runs" that suck, these guys come out of the woodwork and scream for a closure because, in their eyes, the stock is in trouble. (Kinda like the global warming crowd!)

There were MILES of bass ~10 miles off the beach in October, (scallopers and draggers saw them - and this is FIRST HAND INFO) and not one angler could get to them because of the EEZ and it's enforcement - those fish showed up in Cape May in December, only some of them (and they were caught by some of our friends in CM that are still in the water) and are now down off Delmarva. My guess is those fish would've been our fall fish, and were some of the bunker fish we caught in oct/nov in our area -- whatever the case, something kept them offshore (bait - namely sandeels that never made it inshore) and lo and behold, we had a crappy fall (surf guys caught squat) and the conservation crowd is bitching and moaning about there being no bass.

The intention of this post is to clearly state to our community, much of whom are subsistence fishermen, of what we're up against in regards to regulations and people screaming for fish, such as striped bass, to be further regulated.

I'll leave you with a thought from a NY captain, who stated it so well - again I'm paraphrasing but it's close enough for you to get the gist of it: "Striped bass are not a pagan god as viewed by some of the fishermen on our coast, they are a fish, and in turn, they should be managed as such..."

Feel free to comment :)

[1captainron]

These are the same liberal *******s who want to take your guns away and think the world revolves around them. They hate the cops until they get their ass kicked or mugged then cry for help....

I could address every point said, but what's the sense? This crap just goes on and on. Besides, what do you expect from FACEBOOK!!

[tautog]

Slot limit 22"-32" or 24"-34" to save the breeding stock and let guys take the small ones home. I caught at least 30 small stripers last year and never fished any further than the dock.

[Gerry Zagorski]

I'd like to see a slot fish under 28 and one 28 to 30 something but I don't think that is going to be approved since regs like that will be deemed to fall outside the 25% reduction in recreational landings that they are mandating nationally.

The reason I like the slot is for our fall fishery when the rats show up and they are the best eating. The reason I like the 28 to 30 something is becuase I don't like to see the big 40 plus breeders taken out of commission. Take a picture and release it. But that's just me.

Now one way we might be able to have our cake and occasionally eat it and be within the landings, might be to have a fish 28 to 30 something and have one trophy fish tag per angler to take one fish per year over what ever the 30 something mark is.

[AndyS]

The NC Division of Marine Fisheries (DMF) has issued a statement regarding the thousands of striped bass killed and thrown overboard during commercial trawling activity off the Outer Banks in the last few days.

Patricia Smith, the public information officer of the DMF, released the following statement in response to questions for the DMF and its director Dr. Louis Daniel:

“The NC Division of Marine Fisheries is investigating reports of numerous dead striped bass floating in the ocean waters in northern Dare County areas.

The estimates of the numbers of dead fish have ranged from in the hundreds to in the thousands

Oh how quickly we forgot what happened in 2011 :)

[pgoins]

Well said Allen. I actually left another site because of some of theses so called conservationists. Many of them were actually just haters of charter boats. Some actually using some crazy math to figure out how many fish they take in NJ.

I heard things like. "Charter guys run at 5 days a week, two trips a day. Or 10 trips a week. They are able to keep a limit for their 6 fares plus captain and mate so thats 16 fish a trip x's 10 trips a week that's 160 fish a week. Then multiply that by the 1000's of charters in the state and you see why we need to have a moratorium." Statements like this are so wrong, but people read it and take it as fact.

Some of the other things I heard. These were regarding why the charters in the Raritan area were able to report great catches in 2014. Both spring and fall.
- Super Storm Sandy created Romer Shoal and now holds an irregular amount of fish. Thus charters are now fishing there and reporting great catches that normally would not.
- Also due to Sandy. Old Orchard light area now has 300% more structure(Yes this guy somehow figured out that there is 300% more structure) and of course now holds more fish. Letting captains post reports of great catches that normally would never have happened.

Fact is, there is always going to be people whining. I don't get why the surfcasters are blaming the charters so much. I'm in Northern Monmouth, and I blame it on the Army Corp of Engineers. They covered up every jetty all the way to Long branch. I really like the slot fish limits we had in the past. Would like to see a one at 24-28 and one 32"

[Capt. Jerry P]

Everyone who is worried about the "collaspe" of striper fishing should b more worried about seabass and fluke regulations ( two species that a dumbell could see are healthy) bc when get cut down to stricter unreasonable regulations on them it directly put more pressure on stripers in the spring n fall...esp in the for hire sector

[Reel Class]

Everyone who is worried about the "collaspe" of striper fishing should b more worried about seabass and fluke regulations ( two species that a dumbell could see are healthy) bc when get cut down to stricter unreasonable regulations on them it directly put more pressure on stripers in the spring n fall...esp in the for hire sector

Jerry you're 100% right on this.

Only issue is these game changing species don't get the press bass get because bass are perceived by many to be an iconic game fish of god like proportions lol

Fluke seabass and tog need that attention and more guys (me included!) need to get involved because the super regulation of these fish are making our lives, as for hire guys difficult.

What happened to the SSFFF??

[Reel Class]

And... The guys "screaming" for more regs on these species are not cry baby elitists, but the regulators themselves!!!

[Capt. Jerry P]

Easy example...Take a boat that used to seabass fish in june ( recreational party and charter ) if the regulations become so bad for seabass or it doesn't open what will the party boat do? Now add good striper fishing to the equation...

The guy who used to private fish for seabass won't waste the money on fuel or bait ( can't blame him) to run to wrecks to only keep a few seabass or to throw back 100 18 in fluke. Prob will just stay local and live line bass.

Party boat can not get out to go seabassin bc of un reason able regs. But striper fishing is good... in turn u will see 40 bunker snags hanging from a party boat ( can u blame them). Upnorth boats stick with stripers that much longer bc keeper fluke are tougher to get.

Charter boats can't possible charge a charter for a full day of seabassin if it isn't open or the bag limit if so small u can catch a big limit ( sarcastic) in a 1hr...so trips will b combo and stop to liveline stripers.

All r truthful and will increase both the pressure and mortality of stripers no matter what the new regulations r for stripers. Yet u rarely hear anyone make mention of it.

It's all connected a lot more than people think. Same goes for boats up north. Close cod... more boats will go for stripers

[pgoins]

You guys have to stop making so much sense. Your're going to confuse some of these guys calling for tighter striper regs.

I totally agree with everything you guys are saying. I think as charters guys we almost couldn't wait to run some bottom in June. By then we are tired of seeing those striped mud suckers anyway. But as you stated the regs no longer allow it, and with good striper fishing, that's what we do.

[hammer4reel]

While agree some type of real management needs to be done I also disagree with the guys who think stripers arent over fished.

Just go down to the docks any evening in may or june and watch how many fish are being fillet.

These fish are not just fished for by charter and head boats , they are targeted by 1000 times that many boats.

one look at how bad the Virginia fishery has been this winter should at least open up some eyes that killing fish full of roe all winter long down there has knocked the crap out of those fish .

They never get a break unless they are beyond the 3 mile line. and many times even there there are tons of boats fishing for them.
I have always felt that C/R out there should be legal , but after seeing how many boats are KEEPING fish out there it just makes sense that they dont want to have to go out and police who is and who isnt keeping fish .

we are our own worst enemy. Just because keeping a certain number is legal still doesnt make it right.

I have seen the amount of bass go down substancially over the last few years , while seeing the number of guys fishing for them more than quadruple.

we used to see a dozen boats out there livelining at night during the week.
now on any given night there is 200.

with that much extra pressure on the fish , I think its a good thing they are trying to put some type of control on it .

the bad part is as with all our fishery management they seem to not have real numbers of the resource, to target what it can and cant take.

but its better to slow it down before it crashes and takes another ten year to rebuild.

[Joey Dah Fish]

I honestly believe the guys that fish a lot, the charters and the party boat Capts know the most about the fishery they are out there pretty much daily. They are the ones that want the stocks to be sustained. I listen to what they have to say. The science is very flawed these guys sit behind a desk and go by the info given to them. They are blind to everything other than what they are told. For once I would like to see the fish,an regulate the industry and see what happens. I'm sure they would be a smashing success.

[hammer4reel]

I honestly believe the guys that fish a lot, the charters and the party boat Capts know the most about the fishery they are out there pretty much daily. They are the ones that want the stocks to be sustained. I listen to what they have to say. The science is very flawed these guys sit behind a desk and go by the info given to them. They are blind to everything other than what they are told. For once I would like to see the fish,an regulate the industry and see what happens. I'm sure they would be a smashing success.

Charter and head boat captains absolutlely want to see the fishery survive.
BUT they also know that for their business to survive in todays world that for many clients , they have to justify a bag of fillets going home for that persons family to justify the fishing expense.
I say F that , that the clients are paying for a day on the water enjoying the great outdoors we have.
If it needs to be based just on how many fish go home, then those people should just buy it at the market.

everyone that busts thier asses down there giving thier clients a good day have not gottin a real raise in ten years becuase its all based on what the amount of fish that can be had for price justification.

fishing is a past time just like golf, bowling, or any other sport.
Just being able to keep some fresh fish in any amount should be a bonus not the norm.

[Capt. Jerry P]

While agree some type of real management needs to be done I also disagree with the guys who think stripers arent over fished.

Just go down to the docks any evening in may or june and watch how many fish are being fillet.

These fish are not just fished for by charter and head boats , they are targeted by 1000 times that many boats.

one look at how bad the Virginia fishery has been this winter should at least open up some eyes that killing fish full of roe all winter long down there has knocked the crap out of those fish .

They never get a break unless they are beyond the 3 mile line. and many times even there there are tons of boats fishing for them.
I have always felt that C/R out there should be legal , but after seeing how many boats are KEEPING fish out there it just makes sense that they dont want to have to go out and police who is and who isnt keeping fish .

we are our own worst enemy. Just because keeping a certain number is legal still doesnt make it right.

I have seen the amount of bass go down substancially over the last few years , while seeing the number of guys fishing for them more than quadruple.

we used to see a dozen boats out there livelining at night during the week.
now on any given night there is 200.

with that much extra pressure on the fish , I think its a good thing they are trying to put some type of control on it .

the bad part is as with all our fishery management they seem to not have real numbers of the resource, to target what it can and cant take.

but its better to slow it down before it crashes and takes another ten year to rebuild.

And my point exactly... bc alot of guys never said they weren't...actually try to leave my own opinions out of it bc it just leads to finger pointingn fighting n try to show people something that actually make sense.

Personally If I had a pick it would b one 24-28 inches one over 28 inches and if there was a bonus fish it would less than 36 inches. This wold keep the pressure off the big fish by only allowing one... give us a fish in the fall jigging and give the Raritan party boat fleet 2 fish claming but it's not an option and prob won't b.

BUT A sure fire way to make sure create more pressure and mortality on stripers which equals overfishing is by being over regulated on species that are clearly healthy like fluke and seabass.

Make them unreasonable or closed and more boats will target stripers no matter what the regs are ( even it was one fish)

So u think ur saving something by changing regulations... but if ya close cod up north... make fluke bigger... and drop our spring bag on seabass the stripers mighy not being protected at all if u increase mortality and pressure on them

[bassnblues]

To the Captains...how sure are you that your business would tank with a one fish bag?

I ask this because he 3 main "glamor" species in Florida, tarpon, snook and redfish have very strict size and bag limits with closed seasons and they have a huge for hire fishing fleet.

Also, given the time of year that stripers are around, I'd think that the people who want to go out fishing would be more hard core types that understand you can't put everything in the bucket. I know I've spent a lot of money to go someplace to throw fish back.

If your customers wanted more meat after catching their striper rather than C&R, why not take them for ling and blackfish in the early season and then bluefish or fluke later? If I go to a hunting camp and tag a deer the first day, I know I'll be trying to shoot birds for the rest of the week.

Just food for thought...maybe different marketing is what's needed.

[hammer4reel]

To the Captains...how sure are you that your business would tank with a one fish bag?

I ask this because he 3 main "glamor" species in Florida, tarpon, snook and redfish have very strict size and bag limits with closed seasons and they have a huge for hire fishing fleet.

Also, given the time of year that stripers are around, I'd think that the people who want to go out fishing would be more hard core types that understand you can't put everything in the bucket. I know I've spent a lot of money to go someplace to throw fish back.

If your customers wanted more meat after catching their striper rather than C&R, why not take them for ling and blackfish in the early season and then bluefish or fluke later? If I go to a hunting camp and tag a deer the first day, I know I'll be trying to shoot birds for the rest of the week.

Just food for thought...maybe different marketing is what's needed.

seems that the way the season do their overlap , many times their is only one or two types of fish to target now.
and setting up all the equipment and bait for split trips makes it even tougher to make whats needed to stay in business.

florida and other states also have a great tourist fishery, where you get thousands of weekly change over of anglers.
here is nj you pretty much get a steady pool of the same people once your established.

as jerry posted the continue shut down of many of the different fisheries is putting pressure on the next fish in line..

I can say first hand that while there are some C/R guys who will fish weekly , but to most others if they arent taking fish home cant jstify that day out, and the money is spent elseware on their family

[Capt. Jerry P]

Charter and head boat captains absolutlely want to see the fishery survive.
BUT they also know that for their business to survive in todays world that for many clients , they have to justify a bag of fillets going home for that persons family to justify the fishing expense.
I say F that , that the clients are paying for a day on the water enjoying the great outdoors we have.
If it needs to be based just on how many fish go home, then those people should just buy it at the market.

everyone that busts thier asses down there giving thier clients a good day have not gottin a real raise in ten years becuase its all based on what the amount of fish that can be had for price justification.

fishing is a past time just like golf, bowling, or any other sport.
Just being able to keep some fresh fish in any amount should be a bonus not the norm.

May b with trophy stripers that would b fine... but with bottom fish it directly correlates with what goes in the cooler. Even the same w smaller clam bass and jig fish... no keepers = an almost empty party boat n charter boats tied to dock Nobody or should I say not enough people to mantain a business are going to go c&r seabass n fluke.

That's great logic on the Internet where u could say f that but that mind is also not reality for a full time charter or party boat that sails 10-11 months out of the year. It's easy to find a small client base to release every bass if u run 2-4 man charters and do something else as a living. But there is no party boat that will b filled to throw back clam bass in the bay. Those people pay a fare n eat their fish. Like it or hate it it's reality...

I also feel we could do more to protect the bigger bass and people would b happy to throw back those fish as well as one would prob b fine.

To the Captains...how sure are you that your business would tank with a one fish bag?

I ask this because he 3 main "glamor" species in Florida, tarpon, snook and redfish have very strict size and bag limits with closed seasons and they have a huge for hire fishing fleet.

Also, given the time of year that stripers are around, I'd think that the people who want to go out fishing would be more hard core types that understand you can't put everything in the bucket. I know I've spent a lot of money to go someplace to throw fish back.

If your customers wanted more meat after catching their striper rather than C&R, why not take them for ling and blackfish in the early season and then bluefish or fluke later? If I go to a hunting camp and tag a deer the first day, I know I'll be trying to shoot birds for the rest of the week.

Just food for thought...maybe different marketing is what's needed.

It prob wouldn't with livelining ( speaking of my own business only)... many people would b fine with one and throwing back some of then big breeders. But it would def hurt the guys who clam in spring n jig in the fall.

And exactly what u said is true... go for something else in the spring ( soon that won't b an option) . Well a certain # would if we were alowed to go for something else. Seabass n fluke become over regulated and every boat atleast for hire will b striper fishing. Soon there will b a bag limit on ling since we have no choice but to hammer on them

As busy as I am we didn't recieve one call to go c&r seabass or anyone looking to jig all short bass in the fall. I wish there was as many people on the Internet who just love the smell of salt air but in the real world thats just not reality...

N again the worst thing for stripers is to increase (even more ) the number of boats sailing for them... and that is exactly what will happen if we become anymore regulated on healthy species like fluke and seabass.

Just think... we are one fall blackfish regulation change away from every party n charter boat making jigging pit stops bc they can't keep enough blackfish.

We have no balance... and people refuse to see how huge that really is...

[hammer4reel]

Jerry the F that was directed at guys thinking that YOU owed them a cooler of fish every trip out due to the fare.

The F that is a reality that if all the good days and bad days are averaged out , it would be way cheaper to just go buy fish at the fish market.

Guys need to realize they are paying to go out and FISH . that somedays just arent going to be as good as others.
and that fishing is a Hobby.
and the fare is for the expense of someone else taking you out so you can fish without having the expense of a boat themselves.
and they are paying for your expertise in giving them the best chance at having a productive day

[Capt. Jerry P]

Jerry the F that was directed at guys thinking that YOU owed them a cooler of fish every trip out due to the fare.

The F that is a reality that if all the good days and bad days are averaged out , it would be way cheaper to just go buy fish at the fish market.

Guys need to realize they are paying to go out and FISH . that somedays just arent going to be as good as others.
and that fishing is a Hobby.
and the fare is for the expense of someone else taking you out so you can fish without having the expense of a boat themselves.
and they are paying for your expertise in giving them the best chance at having a productive day


I agree with almost everything u say. Including ur take on the stripers. But I think most guys do realize that already a fishing n going fishing

I still feel a smaller slot fish would prob b the best n it would cut the # of big fish everyone is worried about down dramatically. But that not a choice n doesn't fit in their magic #s... I also feel even tho I don't do it and it doesn't effect my business directly that party and charter boats need two fish spring clamming and jigging in the fall. That is not a c&r fishery and as much as people want it to b it's not. Mayb with trophy liveliNing it can b and for the better of the striper sake.

But no matter what the regulations are ( or what u think they should b) its all in vain if u decrease mortality on stripers with a regulation change and the negate it by cutting seabass increasing fluke change on blackfish close cod up north. What was the point if u added more pressure by forcing boats to fish for stripers.

Every person will b hi fiving thinking they are saving bass by making it one fish. Well guess what if they changed just June seabass and nov Dec blackfish could u imagine how many more Stripers will b harvested even if it was one fish regulation on striper.