The charter/party industry...

[sportfishingusa]

You can curse me, bash me, do anything you want to me but i am going to bring it up because i continue to notice it.


Why does the charter business continue to grow the wrong way? lower fares. I am an a completely different businesses and i see it happening in all industries, but the charter and fishing industry is the worst.

Could you imagine if everyone got together and made a standard price across the board? or is everyone a little to worried about their abilities to do so?

I see some boats popping up and in the industry getting less then 100 bucks a head for a full long long day, my question is WHY?

When it comes down to numbers and dollars and cents, you are not making any money. The charter business is hard enough yet we are paying 750 a day down here compared to over 1000 bucks a day else where.

I have no problem doing both, of course i would fish less paying 1000 a day, but why can not one boat around here get that much, or atleast 900 a day? the real reason is because there will be someone out there doing it for 100 for the same day, people do not look at numbers enough to realize that they are losing money.

I am just not understanding the logic behind it, getting into business now a days and not looking to optimize your profit potential, instead just make nothing and go fishing every day. Pretty sad, and although it is a free world, if you are retired, or have enough money to own a boat and just want to do it as a side business, find some friends, stay out of the business, it is saturated enough for everyone, why make it any worse?

[Skolmann]

Don't have an an answer to your question(s) but I will offer you a counter view/question.

I recently returned from Florida and had intended on fishing a party boat (got blown out). Anyway, I found 2 different boats that offered full day trips. By full day I mean leave at 8 AM & return at 5 PM. Fare was $60 and for $10 more you had rod/reel rental plus an egg sandwich for breakfast and your choice of a burger, hot dog or sandwich for lunch with all the water, iced tea, soda you wanted. Not a bad deal for $70. Where can you find that on any NJ party boat?

[shrimpman steve]

The miss cape Canaveral does that. You can't beat it

[Skolmann]

The miss cape Canaveral does that. You can't beat it

Steve, that's the boat I was booked on. I have several friends in the area who highly recommended the Obsession (out of the same port) but all the sterns spots were taken, thus I booked the Miss Cape Canaveral.

[jmurr711]

i diagree a bit i think if Boat A is charging $140 for a 6am-4pm charter and Boat B is charging $110 for the same, i'm not going with boat B just because it is cheaper. I'm going with whatever boat is going to put me on fish, have a kick ass CD on loop & put up with my shenanigans.I think that is true with most anglers so it wouldn't matter if someone raised there prices a bit above average I think if they produce they will book no matter the fare. My neck My back

[sportfishingusa]

i diagree a bit i think if Boat A is charging $140 for a 6am-4pm charter and Boat B is charging $110 for the same, i'm not going with boat B just because it is cheaper. I'm going with whatever boat is going to put me on fish, have a kick ass CD on loop & put up with my shenanigans.I think that is true with most anglers so it wouldn't matter if someone raised there prices a bit above average I think if they produce they will book no matter the fare. My neck My back


I am with you on that one, but people who are uneducated on the fishing business and who to fish with, will usually take the lesser. and also if that is the case mr murray, why don't the said "boat a" charge 180 or 200 for the day? lol

[jmurr711]

thats just silly Vincent stop giving people these ideas of $200pp ahahahah

[tombanjo]

Could you imagine if everyone got together and made a standard price across the board? or is everyone a little to worried about their abilities to do so?

?
Maybe worried about laws against collusion?

[MrAC1980]

i diagree a bit i think if Boat A is charging $140 for a 6am-4pm charter and Boat B is charging $110 for the same, i'm not going with boat B just because it is cheaper. I'm going with whatever boat is going to put me on fish, have a kick ass CD on loop & put up with my shenanigans.I think that is true with most anglers so it wouldn't matter if someone raised there prices a bit above average I think if they produce they will book no matter the fare. My neck My back

I am with you on that one, but people who are uneducated on the fishing business and who to fish with, will usually take the lesser. and also if that is the case mr murray, why don't the said "boat a" charge 180 or 200 for the day? lol

I slightly disagree here too. Times are getting tougher and every industry is getting more and more competitive, why do you think fishing is any different?? The average middle income home/family is trying to save pennies any where possible. Middle of the week trip for fluke, $50 headboat vs $125 open boat charter is kinda hard to justify... The charter guys doing it full time are the ones that I feel for, the guys that do it part time who tend to offer the cheaper charters have another source of income to rely upon and don't need to charge "full price" for charters.

Owning a boat and taking a bunch of guys bucktailing off the rocks with the rest of the fleet doesn't make one guy better then the next. Try talking to the guys down my way that don't have all the different structure you northern guys do is a little different! We don't have rocks or mussel beds to fish. A captain that can consistently put limits of big fluke in the boat in the middle of the summer down my way might be able to get away with charging the higher rates...

[Ol Pedro]

Could it be that there are so many part timers with 6 pac tickets ? We all know at least one guy in our Inlet that does it because It's an extention of his hobby . He just wants to write off his boat/expenses and fish when he wants to . Carry a few charters/open partys break even. Most of the part timers that I know are good people who fish hard and need the money. attrition doesn't work if it's not a major part of your Living Expenses .

[sportfishingusa]

Could it be that there are so many part timers with 6 pac tickets ? We all know at least one guy in our Inlet that does it because It's an extention of his hobby . He just wants to write off his boat/expenses and fish when he wants to . Carry a few charters/open partys break even. Most of the part timers that I know are good people who fish hard and need the money. attrition doesn't work if it's not a major part of your Living Expenses .


That is what i am getting at here and mostly everyones comments are falling into the same area. I have brought this up before.. why do people sell themselves short? If you are charging 100 per man for a 6 pack and the guy next marina over is charging 125-140 why would you not charge more and be up to par with everyone else? The answers is simple, they do not need to do that much per day to cover their costs since likely they are either not looking at a full time gig or they are not looking to do anything but fish. So why do it? Take cape may for instance, used to be one of the largest striped bass fleets down there, everyone did it and for good money, then the little part time and even some full time guys came in and took a dump on the industry, now it was the old "why fish with boat 1 for 130 a guy, when i can go and fish with boat 2, for 60 bucks for 5 hours.. the difference is clear i most eyes yet some do not see it.

I also see pretty good fishermen come into the industry and sell themselves short. why charge 100 per guy for an inshore trip when you can get 125-140 or whatever all day long? why not make the most you can out of our short shitty seasons up here?

Same with offshore, why charge 2500 for an overnighter when you can charger 3300-3800 and make more money and be up to par with everyone else?

[Flukinator]

What about the full-timers who charge more than everyone else and are still booked solid all season-long? All the part-time captains could charge 20 bucks a head for a tuna trip, and the Canyon Runner would still be booked solid all season. Don't blame some guys with low prices for "ruining" an industry. The local fishing industry has WAY more issues stacked against it, including non-sensical regulations, a changing society where fishing just isn't as popular as it once was, more environmentalists spreading anti-fishing non-sense, etc.

Price-fixing is certainly not the answer to saving anyone's business.

[sportfishingusa]

Maybe worried about laws against collusion?



collusion would have nothing to do with industry standards, no one is lowering or raising prices secretively, they are not doing it in order to cheat anyone... it would just be a simple industry meeting to discuss where pricing should be and discuss how to make the industry better as a whole.. and remember, this is just my opinion!

[sportfishingusa]

What about the full-timers who charge more than everyone else and are still booked solid all season-long? All the part-time captains could charge 20 bucks a head for a tuna trip, and the Canyon Runner would still be booked solid all season. Don't blame some guys with low prices for "ruining" an industry. The local fishing industry has WAY more issues stacked against it, including non-sensical regulations, a changing society where fishing just isn't as popular as it once was, more environmentalists spreading anti-fishing non-sense, etc.

Price-fixing is certainly not the answer to saving anyone's business.


your comparing apples to oranges throwing a name like that out there... might point is not that, my point is why charge less for a service you could get more for? what is the reason? it sure as shit is not because anyones costs are less, and if they are that much less, then why not try to make as much as you can. And you can sure blame guys who charge out of control low prices for ruining an industry.. The bass fishery in cape may has not changed, but try to find boat that does not have to run open boats and go with a few guys here and there to keep busy.

[MrAC1980]

What do you think is better? Going out with 3 guys paying $125 or 6 guys paying $100 bucks? Some of the captains need to have a better understanding of business. Give the guys who sign up a break saying if we fill the Charter it'll be cheaper and actually hand money back to them! Or run cheaper rates during the week vs weekend rates. That'll get them to entice their friends to maybe join for the cheaper rate as well.
I'm a private boat owner so haven't run the numbers for insurance and slip fees, but it can't be costing anywhere near $750 to run inshore fluke, seabass/blackfish trips...?

[nancy corigan]

sportfishingusa this is a free market economy in a way, I say in a way because some markets aren't, like when they do what you suggest, all charter boats should band together to charge everyone one set price that is called MAP pricing (Minimum Average Price).

That is evil to me as I like competition and the free market.

I sell on ebay and people always try and undercut other sellers by way of lower prices and thats fine if the want a smaller margin it's on them. I make my money and they make theirs and it's all good.

I live by how my mom raised me, worry about yourself and your business and don't worry about someone else'. You will retain a higher quality client this way.

[reefsquater]

The way it goes, like it or not, is that our economy is a free market one.
Getting your six pack license is not that difficult or expensive to do. Reputation goes a long way to price. I know there are some charters who command a very steep price. For some, it is worth the expense for others they say they are crazy to ask that much. I say if they can get it, good for them. I also say if a guy wants to sail everyday for less then what it actually costs him, good for him. He will probably not last long.

If you try to get together and set a price someone will take advantage of it. Did you see the reaction two years ago to the groupon buy one get one free trip a NS party boat offered? Well, everyone around was mad that there were people on his boat. " He's ruining the industry, no one is going to work with him, etc. I saw more people on that boat last year when there were no more Groupons then ever before. I heard him called in on a bite by one of the same guys that bashed him. Dock politics works in mysterious ways!

Also, Many people get started in the industry as a supplement to their hobby (I guess they like to take the fun out of it) A lot of guys just want to be on the water. If you are starting out, you want to work up your business. So, if you want to spend the whole day working to prove yourself and just break even, or even lose a couple bucks why not?
Doctors, teachers, policeman, etc...many own and charter their boats. They all started somewhere.

If you want to start an offshore tuna fishing charter do you think you will get 900 a man your first trip out? Or will you get 325 a man and just cover the expenses?

[sportfishingusa]

What do you think is better? Going out with 3 guys paying $125 or 6 guys paying $100 bucks? Some of the captains need to have a better understanding of business. Give the guys who sign up a break saying if we fill the Charter it'll be cheaper and actually hand money back to them! Or run cheaper rates during the week vs weekend rates. That'll get them to entice their friends to maybe join for the cheaper rate as well.
I'm a private boat owner so haven't run the numbers for insurance and slip fees, but it can't be costing anywhere near $750 to run inshore fluke, seabass/blackfish trips...?


think it is better to not sail then go with 3 at 125. lol


You got to take these costs.

Fuel
Bait
Oil
oil filter
insurance
slip
payroll (mate)
tax
boat cost (if any payments)


There is a lot of dollars and sense... i understand not everyone can sail every single day with 6 guys at 125 or 140 bucks a head, but if you can sail with 6 guys at 100 why not charge "industry" standard and make some more money for the days you sail or the days you have to sail light?

[sportfishingusa]

and finally it took one post like this to liven up the crowd hahahah

[PaulNreel]

Charter boats are no different than any other business. Its pricing is governed by supply and demand. If you have too many boats or not enough fisherman the prices will drop as captains make the economic choice of lowering their fare to increase their load. I have to admire the captains that go out with a minimum of fisherman where they may not break even. These captains have my loyalty, my business and I don't complain when the rails are packed. Eventually an equilibrium is reached where you have a balance of charters and fisherman, prices stabilize. As the economy weakens discretionary spending drops (less money to go fishing) charter prices drop, maybe some go out of business (a sad reality) the supply of charters matches the fisherman. But here is light at the end of the tunnel, as the economy improves, discretionary spending improves, the rails get crowded, prices go up and entrepreneurial mates become captains. One thing we should all do is take a kid (or non fishing friend) fishing. As they get hooked (pun intended) the growing number of fisherman will increase demand and maintain the diversity of charters we all want.

[sportfishingusa]

Charter boats are no different than any other business. Its pricing is governed by supply and demand. If you have too many boats or not enough fisherman the prices will drop as captains make the economic choice of lowering their fare to increase their load. I have to admire the captains that go out with a minimum of fisherman where they may not break even. These captains have my loyalty, my business and I don't complain when the rails are packed. Eventually an equilibrium is reached where you have a balance of charters and fisherman, prices stabilize. As the economy weakens discretionary spending drops (less money to go fishing) charter prices drop, maybe some go out of business (a sad reality) the supply of charters matches the fisherman. But here is light at the end of the tunnel, as the economy improves, discretionary spending improves, the rails get crowded, prices go up and entrepreneurial mates become captains. One thing we should all do is take a kid (or non fishing friend) fishing. As they get hooked (pun intended) the growing number of fisherman will increase demand and maintain the diversity of charters we all want.


Thank you.. well said!

[nancy corigan]

think it is better to not sail then go with 3 at 125. lol


You got to take these costs.

Fuel
Bait
Oil
oil filter
insurance
slip
payroll (mate)
tax
boat cost (if any payments)


There is a lot of dollars and sense... i understand not everyone can sail every single day with 6 guys at 125 or 140 bucks a head, but if you can sail with 6 guys at 100 why not charge "industry" standard and make some more money for the days you sail or the days you have to sail light?

I own 2 boats and Bass Boat and a Saltwater boat.

How about Breaking down what you spend on average on all the above for all to see, I mean you want everyone to follow industry standard, so let everyone see your costs. ;)

[sportfishingusa]

I own 2 boats and Bass Boat and a Saltwater boat.

How about Breaking down what you spend on average on all the above for all to see, I mean you want everyone to follow industry standard, so let everyone see your costs. ;)


I do not run a charter operation. I am putting a perspective on it from the outside looking in.

But i am sure if most crunched their numbers they would drop their jaws and not their drawers.

[MrAC1980]

think it is better to not sail then go with 3 at 125. lol
There is a lot of dollars and sense... i understand not everyone can sail every single day with 6 guys at 125 or 140 bucks a head, but if you can sail with 6 guys at 100 why not charge "industry" standard and make some more money for the days you sail or the days you have to sail light?

You can say that its better not to sail with 3 at $125 but I'm pretty sure next time those same guys want to book, they're going to book with someone there is a better chance of sailing with... I bet even sailing with 2, $250 will cover most if not all your costs to keep customers happy. Once again, difference business sense, each to their own...
And you're crazy with your "industry" standard thought process. The guy that mentioned that Groupon thing is getting warmer. You have to give people an incentive to go on your boat, let it be free food, longer hours or cheaper rates, etc. That Groupon thing wasn't all about money, that was cheap advertising!!

[sportfishingusa]

You can say that its better not to sail with 3 at $125 but I'm pretty sure next time those same guys want to book, they're going to book with someone there is a better chance of sailing with... I bet even sailing with 2, $250 will cover most if not all your costs to keep customers happy. Once again, difference business sense, each to their own...
And you're crazy with your "industry" standard thought process. The guy that mentioned that Groupon thing is getting warmer. You have to give people an incentive to go on your boat, let it be free food, longer hours or cheaper rates, etc. That Groupon thing wasn't all about money, that was cheap advertising!!


There is another problem, there was a time when i was growing up and working on boats, there was no such thing as an open boat, and that was not to long ago.. Shared charter maybe, but no such thing as an open boat...

You can give incentives all you want, but why give away money? someone please explain that thought process. There is no "industry" standard, that is what i am trying to get at, but if you look at majority of the boats in the area they are all around the same prices except for some of the boats charging much less and going with less guys, why not just fish and enjoy yourself compared to taking on responsibility and liable for others? for what? we dont have long enough seasons to keep someone financially stable making minimum amounts of money per trip, we do not get to fish that many days in this area.

[nancy corigan]

sportfishingusa you also have to take into account the regulations. I for one am not a charter boat person as i would rather double the amounts of trips in a year.

I live in North NJ and gas and food and tolls add up. So a charter boat fluking that only runs maybe 10 miles North of their inlet is charging a premium price of $125 not including tip.

Then take into account Gulp, jigs, hooks and tip and now you are talking a $220 day.

Are the Captains taking that into consideration on pricing? No they aren't they are worried about their bottom line.

What I want to know is how many Captains say you were out with me 4 weeks in a row this one is on me?

The industry from what I read on here from the damage of Sandy was to support their local business, but does the local business look out for their customers.

At the end of the month are they paying my bills? Can i count on them to support me if i walk in or board their boat and forget my money, and they say no worries it's free?

If yes then i will support them but thats not happening...

[jmurr711]

i just calculated Sportfishingusa daily amounton a trip:
fare-$125
tip-$25
Food- $50
Beer-$350

[sportfishingusa]

i just calculated Sportfishingusa daily amounton a trip:
fare-$125
tip-$25
Food- $50
Beer-$350



Food is sometimes less depending on what time i pass out for my mid morning nap :eek:

[the1jonc]

It is not as free of a market as you think.

Cigarettes, "lowest price allowed by law".
State mandated milk prices.
Agricultural and Oil subsidies.
Bank bailouts.

[sportfishingusa]

It is not as free of a market as you think.

Cigarettes, "lowest price allowed by law".
State mandated milk prices.
Agricultural and Oil subsidies.
Bank bailouts.


:D :D :D :D :D

[nancy corigan]

It is not as free of a market as you think.

Cigarettes, "lowest price allowed by law".
State mandated milk prices.
Agricultural and Oil subsidies.
Bank bailouts.

Ahem-

sportfishingusa this is a free market economy in a way, I say in a way because some markets aren't, like when they do what you suggest, all charter boats should band together to charge everyone one set price that is called MAP pricing (Minimum Average Price).

That is evil to me as I like competition and the free market.

I sell on ebay and people always try and undercut other sellers by way of lower prices and thats fine if the want a smaller margin it's on them. I make my money and they make theirs and it's all good.

I live by how my mom raised me, worry about yourself and your business and don't worry about someone else'. You will retain a higher quality client this way.

[sportfishingusa]

Ahem what???

You had an incomplete run on thought that I elaborated on.


Were you expecting a footnote or for me to write, "As brilliantly first mentioned by nancy corigan, ..."



now that is some funny shit. hahaha

[the1jonc]

Oy Vey.

Whatever.

Tight Lines.

[BCinerie]

You are in business, you can charge whatever you want, and your competitors can also. If you do not like it go into another business and guess what, same sh*t happens!!! If it was easy anywone could do it!! That is why some boats are booked solid and some are not, your choice!!!

BC

[SHAMROCK EDDIE]

Sport I hate to say this but I agree with you on this one! Guys in my marina running charters and under charging are killing those of use willing to travel to the fish. Just look at the price differences between areas I can see early bass in our backyard but after that we need to run.

[Knot Guilty]

Sport I hate to say this but I agree with you on this one! Guys in my marina running charters and under charging are killing those of use willing to travel to the fish. Just look at the price differences between areas I can see early bass in our backyard but after that we need to run.

Right on Eddie.

[Fish Stix]

Bottom Line here is:

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

And that's it.



On another note, we start fishing next week! :)

[Wien21]

I am glad there are the low cost providers. Easy way for me to know what boat to stay away from.
Every 1/2 serious fisherman will not go on a "cheap" charter, open charter etc., and we know why.
Actually has a double benefit, 1) to stay away from boats/captains below standard
2) stay away from novice fishermen

Gotta love free market :)

btw, thats valid for everything other than commodities, lower price means sacrificing SOMETHING.

[Blackfish Doug]

Not everybody can afford the higher prices anymore. People are trying to get the most bang for their buck. I'm fishing 50% less because of the prices associated that goes into a day of fishing. Price cutting is going on everywhere restaurant coupons, internet discounts everybody is hurting in all industry's. If you can survive on less do it. I'm making 85% less then what I was making in the markets. I know I can no longer fish as much as I used to because of it. I just cherry pick my days now & save up for what I feel is a worth while day. Not everybody is as fortunate as others & only wish they could fish more but no longer can they swing it anymore. So if you see somebody fishing on that lowered priced boat there may be more of a reason behind it.

[jmurr711]

Food is sometimes less depending on what time i pass out for my mid morning nap :eek:
true & you got that real handsome guy you fish with who brings ya pretzels! Vinty for the post today i needed entertainement now we need this weather to break!

[Wien21]

Not everybody can afford the higher prices anymore. People are trying to get the most bang for their buck. I'm fishing 50% less because of the prices associated that goes into a day of fishing. Price cutting is going on everywhere restaurant coupons, internet discounts everybody is hurting in all industry's. If you can survive on less do it. I'm making 85% less then what I was making in the markets. I know I can no longer fish as much as I used to because of it. I just cherry pick my days now & save up for what I feel is a worth while day. Not everybody is as fortunate as others & only wish they could fish more but no longer can they swing it anymore. So if you see somebody fishing on that lowered priced boat there may be more of a reason behind it.

Absolutely agree with you Doug. But there is a difference between "cherry picking" fishing trips and settling for less. I am sure you agree it makes more sense to do two trips on a quality boat for $140 than 3 trips on a low cost $100 provider where you have to cross your fingers that the bait is fresh, the boat is anchored right, customer service, the captain is moving the vessel to the fish and fishing the right spots....etc etc.
BTW, thats the reason I barely do inshore partyboats anymore. Rather do one charter instead of two partyboat trips. That can be a week, a month or a year, doesnt matter.
There is a reason why "right" priced boats are priced the way they are....because there are no shortcuts, and thats the way we want it.
These boats dont have to worry about filling up quickly, as a matter of fact they are booked so far in advance I start wondering why they dont charge more.
The ones complaining and crying are the ones that overprice and under deliver. They have to cut prices till they fill up, and quite honestly, thats the pricecategory they belong in, considering demand(who goes on these boats) and supply(what they offer) or vice versa.
Easy as "the market", isn't it?

[jenny lee sportfishing]

vin,

i did not read all five pages, i'm sorry i just can't do it. i have operated jenny lee sportfishing for the last 13 years and consider my operation to be first class. however, i am a part time charter operation, meaning although we are available everyday of the season, we all augmnet our income working fulltime in other industries/business'. aside from the head boats there are only a few operations in which the employees/owner's are solefully dependent on their charter business, and my hat goes off to all of them.
i have owned and operated dave's heavy towing for the past 38 years and at one time i was one of the top operations in the state and perhaps the east coast, but competition and low pricie have changed all of that, as it has done to the for hire fishing business.
you see somehow, a guy comes into business with little or no expierience in operating a business and figures out that his competitors are gouging the public and he can do it much cheaper. after all 38 years, what could i possibly know about running a business, just like the bogans or raagula, or larosa families, what do they know. after decades in business, you should have some knowlegde of what it costs to operate, make some money, and of course pay your help well enough so they stick around and oh yea, improve or upgrade your equipment/ boats/ tackle/ etc.

when we started chartering i promised my self that i would operate jenny lee as i do dave's heavy towing, with the utmost in professionalism, and saftey, and not cut price or quality just to say" i'm a charter business"
this is not a knock on anyone who is chartering or thinking about it, by no means, it is america, but you are 100% correct their are far too many start up so called charter boats that are crapping up the stream for the few really true charter operations, and i'm not sure if it's ego or dollars or both.

please exuse me for the rant, but it's the truth. i'm the last man to judge anyone, i am a part time charter operation, however, i feel i maintain the highest quality of respect for the industry and my peers.

repsectfully
capt dave bender

[Treble Hook Jim]

I did not waste my time reading all the pages of responses but here is my 2 cents...when all things are equal, all prices can be equal. Not all boats are equal and either are captains or crew. I would gladly pay more to be on a boat that will get me to the grounds faster and has a crew that works hard. I was recently on a sponsor boat that was open for the day and the boat never went more than a couple miles from the marina, never burned any fuel or got the boat more that 8-10 knots and all we caught were short fluke and all the mate did was fish the entire time. Where as I fished the Mad Gaffer, and captain ray burns fuel, goes wherever necessary and will keep you out late, billy the mate busts his ass and as a result, I have since chartered his boat several times.bottow line, you are comparing apples and oranges... You are not going to pay the same price for Hyundai as you would a Lexus would you???

[Captain Rich]

I'm going to add another thought to this thread, I started around the same time as Dave Bender and respect his opinions and operation. I also run part time. As Vinny pointed out in the start of this thread, charter rates in this metropolitan area are lower than most other geographic areas. I fish out of Jupiter during the winter and the drift boats there get $75/head for a half day trip and run less than 5 miles. During the winter they are booked up solid and run two trips/day. Considering the distances we travel, charter rates here are a bargain. Our spring clamming trips up to Raritan Bay are 25 miles each way. When I talk to captains out of our area about our canyon trips with runs of 80 to 100 miles each way, they think we are nuts to charge as little as we do. The cost of fuel is what makes or breaks us in the charter industry.

[Taxman]

Some can run on reputation

New comers to market need pricing until they establish their reputation

Companies offer lower prices to build market share all of the time

[Harpoon]

But ultimately the consumer wins out with choices. We can choose the port, boat, crew that we want to fish with and someone that is in our price range. That keeps anglers interested and helps the industry as a whole cause we keep fishing. That also keeps sites like this in business since they are a place for advertisers. Now from a personal business perspective its gotta be a brutal industry to be in...especially if its your full time gig but ultimately that was your choice in the beginning of it all.

I would compare it too moving next to an airport that been in operation for 100 years and then asking said airport to lower the noise level after you move in. You knew from the beginning the fishing industry is tough and you have to be ready to weather all the changes no matter where they come from. I would say this happens in many different industries...not just the fishing industry.

[joeya78]

i know these guys have to make money to stay alive, but over a hundred bucks for a head boat would get a lot less people out there. Also i think for someone who is fishing once a week over a hundred bucks is just too high for some people to pay....especially to catch two flounder, maybe a couple of keeper fluke, maybe a bass or two? What if you had to take your three sobs.....400 bucks for those fish. I dont agree with you on this, i feel the fares are to high as it is. Theres a couple of months i fish 5 times a week on an charter or pb and it costs me well over 1000 bucks a week. Ridiculus, but i pay it because i love the sport. I feel pb fishing is the only boat fishing we have left thats reasonable, even having three boats myself if you take your own boats odds are its gonna be at least 200. Just my opinion, the volume is how these guiys have to make money, or buy a smaller boat that could go farther or get where the pb cant and charge more.

[sportfishingusa]

vin,

i did not read all five pages, i'm sorry i just can't do it. i have operated jenny lee sportfishing for the last 13 years and consider my operation to be first class. however, i am a part time charter operation, meaning although we are available everyday of the season, we all augmnet our income working fulltime in other industries/business'. aside from the head boats there are only a few operations in which the employees/owner's are solefully dependent on their charter business, and my hat goes off to all of them.
i have owned and operated dave's heavy towing for the past 38 years and at one time i was one of the top operations in the state and perhaps the east coast, but competition and low pricie have changed all of that, as it has done to the for hire fishing business.
you see somehow, a guy comes into business with little or no expierience in operating a business and figures out that his competitors are gouging the public and he can do it much cheaper. after all 38 years, what could i possibly know about running a business, just like the bogans or raagula, or larosa families, what do they know. after decades in business, you should have some knowlegde of what it costs to operate, make some money, and of course pay your help well enough so they stick around and oh yea, improve or upgrade your equipment/ boats/ tackle/ etc.

when we started chartering i promised my self that i would operate jenny lee as i do dave's heavy towing, with the utmost in professionalism, and saftey, and not cut price or quality just to say" i'm a charter business"
this is not a knock on anyone who is chartering or thinking about it, by no means, it is america, but you are 100% correct their are far too many start up so called charter boats that are crapping up the stream for the few really true charter operations, and i'm not sure if it's ego or dollars or both.

please exuse me for the rant, but it's the truth. i'm the last man to judge anyone, i am a part time charter operation, however, i feel i maintain the highest quality of respect for the industry and my peers.

repsectfully
capt dave bender

Thank you dave, and i always forget that you own daves towing, i will keep you in mind next time i need a heavy up your way, i am also in the towing business, myself for 12 years and my father for 32! I appreciate your response and you are spot on, some times you have to sell yourself short to make ends meet at one time or another, but thats business sometimes.. You response is dead on and greatly appreciated!!

[joeya78]

I'm going to add another thought to this thread, I started around the same time as Dave Bender and respect his opinions and operation. I also run part time. As Vinny pointed out in the start of this thread, charter rates in this metropolitan area are lower than most other geographic areas. I fish out of Jupiter during the winter and the drift boats there get $75/head for a half day trip and run less than 5 miles. During the winter they are booked up solid and run two trips/day. Considering the distances we travel, charter rates here are a bargain. Our spring clamming trips up to Raritan Bay are 25 miles each way. When I talk to captains out of our area about our canyon trips with runs of 80 to 100 miles each way, they think we are nuts to charge as little as we do. The cost of fuel is what makes or breaks us in the charter industry.
its a double ended sword, how about the boats that come out of port and are fishing within 1 mile of running?

[sportfishingusa]

I did not waste my time reading all the pages of responses but here is my 2 cents...when all things are equal, all prices can be equal. Not all boats are equal and either are captains or crew. I would gladly pay more to be on a boat that will get me to the grounds faster and has a crew that works hard. I was recently on a sponsor boat that was open for the day and the boat never went more than a couple miles from the marina, never burned any fuel or got the boat more that 8-10 knots and all we caught were short fluke and all the mate did was fish the entire time. Where as I fished the Mad Gaffer, and captain ray burns fuel, goes wherever necessary and will keep you out late, billy the mate busts his ass and as a result, I have since chartered his boat several times.bottow line, you are comparing apples and oranges... You are not going to pay the same price for Hyundai as you would a Lexus would you???



I wouldn't buy a hyundai. hahaha kidding.. Your right in that aspect, but what i am trying to say, if that if your trying to get into the business, trying to get started, starting at the same rates as most boats in the area will put you in their market and allow you to make more money doing so. Market research has shown and proving countless times throughout the ages, that if you take the same product, be it a 5 dollar apple corer, and charge 10 instead of five, more people will buy at 10 because they think it is a better product yet it is the same crap 5 dollar product.


People can go on a cheaper boat, might get just as good if not better quality of fishing and service, but why not optimize your potential to earn and profit then ride the tide and hope to build your business. I am a cheap guy, not extremely frugal but cheap, but i know what i am willing to spend. I do not fish near as much, not because i dont want to, but i dont have the time and yes i admit, it is hard to continue to pay the 125 plus a head plus tip more then a few times a month, or my wife would really take my man hood away, i can only hide so much money. hahah

[sportfishingusa]

its a double ended sword, how about the boats that come out of port and are fishing within 1 mile of running?



boats in sailfish marina that go sailfishing and such in florida are getting upwards of 2500 per day to do that, then you have to pay extra for live bait, they go a few miles off the beach, sometimes 3 miles to the ledge and start fishing, we have boats up here getting 2500 for a day troll that is burning 400 gallons of fuel lol

[LegalEyes]

Save a few bucks, buy your own airline tickets and skip the timeshare hard sell.

Cross threading... both issues solved :D

[Captain Ahab]

But ultimately the consumer wins out with choices. We can choose the port, boat, crew that we want to fish with and someone that is in our price range. That keeps anglers interested and helps the industry as a whole cause we keep fishing. That also keeps sites like this in business since they are a place for advertisers. Now from a personal business perspective its gotta be a brutal industry to be in...especially if its your full time gig but ultimately that was your choice in the beginning of it all.

I would compare it too moving next to an airport that been in operation for 100 years and then asking said airport to lower the noise level after you move in. You knew from the beginning the fishing industry is tough and you have to be ready to weather all the changes no matter where they come from. I would say this happens in many different industries...not just the fishing industry.


Hey Jon - I guess you are still alive

Any word on when I can get the stuff back? :mad:

[rumster]

I wouldn't buy a hyundai. hahaha kidding.. Your right in that aspect, but what i am trying to say, if that if your trying to get into the business, trying to get started, starting at the same rates as most boats in the area will put you in their market and allow you to make more money doing so. Market research has shown and proving countless times throughout the ages, that if you take the same product, be it a 5 dollar apple corer, and charge 10 instead of five, more people will buy at 10 because they think it is a better product yet it is the same crap 5 dollar product.

I find the apple corer analogy a little insulting. As a consumer it doesn`t take long to realize who is doing a good job for you and who is not, regardless of price. As a pb operator or pc operator if you were getting gouged on the price that you pay for gas or bait you would be the 1st one to complain. So here you are openly looking to have an entire industry raise prices on a forum that a large number of your customers are derived from regardless of the service or knowledge of that particular captain. That is not very smart.

[sportfishingusa]

I wouldn't buy a hyundai. hahaha kidding.. Your right in that aspect, but what i am trying to say, if that if your trying to get into the business, trying to get started, starting at the same rates as most boats in the area will put you in their market and allow you to make more money doing so. Market research has shown and proving countless times throughout the ages, that if you take the same product, be it a 5 dollar apple corer, and charge 10 instead of five, more people will buy at 10 because they think it is a better product yet it is the same crap 5 dollar product.

I find the apple corer analogy a little insulting. As a consumer it doesn`t take long to realize who is doing a good job for you and who is not, regardless of price. As a pb operator or pc operator if you were getting gouged on the price that you pay for gas or bait you would be the 1st one to complain. So here you are openly looking to have an entire industry raise prices on a forum that a large number of your customers are derived from regardless of the service or knowledge of that particular captain. That is not very smart.

That would be sort of true if i was a charter boat captain or has any affiliation with a boat or business in the fishing industry any longer. As for the insulting analogy, it might be insulting but it is true, you put an over priced tag on something and people jump for it..

You completely missing my point here any how.. This is not about price gouging, this is not about rip offs, this is not about raising prices, this is about people coming into this business half assed. People coming in with boats they used to use just to fish and have fun, now they are charter to off set costs and although they may not be taking many customers away from your well known and reputable fishing boats, they are selling themselves short.

Answer me one question, if you have a product that you know can generate you 100k a year at a specific price point, why would you settle for 50k a year and work harder to reach 50 percent potential?

Same goes with the charter industry, lets use whole numbers, you run a boat and you get 500 a day for an all day trip, most boats are getting 1000 per day and running more trips if not just as many as you at 500, lets say each boats costs are exactly the same, the charter boat selling himself short at 500 a day is working twice as hard to make up for the difference the boat charging 1000 a day is making, when the guy making 500 a day and working twice as hard, could charge 1000 a day and work half as hard.. Make sense? kinda like the old saying, working smarter not harder.. Hard work is needed to survive and be successful, but if you run ragged and run your business with no care as to your bottom line or what your time is worth, then you might as well go pee in the wind.

[Fish Tank]

I've been thinking about this for a while and don't think there is any right or wrong answer here, just different ways of looking at things. Some businesses make their money by volume and others make money by higher margins.

Walmart can sell a handbag for $30 meanwhile my fiance' makes me spend $300 at a Coach store! They both probably cost around $10 to make and can hold the same amount of stuff (which is the whole purpose of a bag, isn't it?), but the difference is that most of the population can afford the Walmart bag and once you get into the Coach pricerange, you have narrowed down the market of potential buyers. At the end of the year, if Walmart sells 10x the amount of bags than Coach does because their market of potential buyers is 10x greater, don't they both make the same amount of $? The same applies in this business as well.

Some operations are geared towards the higher-end clientele who expect a large, fast, vessel with a mate ready to retie rigs and dehook your fish, a nice galley with breakfast served on the way out, top of the line reels on custom rods, an endless supply of sinkers and tackle, etc. For that, I can certainly agree that there should be a premium associated with that type of service.

On the other hand, there are some boats that have a clientele base of people that just want to fish as much as possible. For those people, they are willing to sacrifice some of those additional ammenities for a lower price point which allows them to fish 4-5xs per month instead of 2-3.

That is what originally attracted me to Capt. Tommy's boat, "Right Away II", and why I have been a weekly regular of his for the past 10 years and now have entered into business with him. I have my own equipment and tackle and bring my lunch (mostly Coors Light with an occasional sandwich if I remember to pack it). I enjoy tying my own rigs and releasing my own fish. I don't have a problem hauling an anchor if necessary or picking up a brush and wiping down the gunnels. To me, that is all part of the sport of fishing and the fact that I was able to fish more often because of that made it all worth it.

Just because Capt. Tommy's business model is a little different compared to some of the other boats (a large customer base of weekly regulars instead of less frequent fares) doesn't mean we catch less fish, aren't willing to travel farther to find the bite and aren't making money. In fact, a lot of the posts/responses we have received on this site reference him as arguably one of the best bottomfishermen in the area.

I understand not everyone has the same opinion as me and that is the beauty of this site. It allows each of us to speak openly about certain topics and get different perspectives from a wide range of people.

Tight Lines!

~Capt. Kevin

P.S. If anyone would prefer to pay $200 for an open boat spot, we will gladly oblige :D :D :D

[Skolmann]

Fish Tank, agree 100%.

[jigemup]

Agree with Fish Tank, been fishing with Tommy since 2000.

[damnyankee]

I'm bringing PBR this week, Kev. And free market = you can charge what you want and provide whatever service you want. If it affects others' business in an industry, well, it's supposed to. Like natural selection, those that adapt will thrive and those that don't will die off. On the demand side, customers are free to choose whatever price/service they want. I've been with Tommy for three years, following him from 3 boats. Every time I've been on another charter, it reminds me why I fish with Tommy around 35 times a year. As Capt. Kevin said, other charters provide free lead, a mate to tie your rigs and unsnag you, and whatever else. But I don't want those things, and when I go on those charters I tell the mate so. I still pay my full fare, and tip, but I didn't get the service I paid for by my own choice. That being said, I choose to fish with Tommy predominantly, because he is not charging for those things. I supply my own lead, tackle, gulp, etc. and I am my own mate. And that allows for a lower fare. Mind you, I'm not cheap, I just enjoy doing those things for myself. Which brings me back to my original point of it's my choice in a free market.

[Chico]

When I first began hiring charter capts I did go with some of the lower priced charters. The boats were smaller, they did not use a mate, and were relatively speaking kinda new to the charter business. Today some of them are among the high priced charters. They were able to attract new fishermen to the charter concept with their lower prices and build up a clientele that was loyal and over the years their clients saw that it was worth the extra $$ to stick with their charter captains. If I would not have found that Capt. in Key Largo who would take two of us offshore all day for $550. in 1999, or the Capt. in Sw Fla. that would run open boats to fish offshore for $150. per man. I would never have even gone on a charter boat!! I would still be fishing with the partyboats, I would never have known what I was missing. The same goes for the partyboats. I personally, am loyal to a particular sponsor boat out of Pt Pleasant Beach, they have ALWAYS exceeded or met my expectations. Friends always ask me to try other boats, I just can't see why?? I know what I am getting with my first choice, and don't mind paying more for what I see as a great value and a positive experience. Let's go fishing!!!

[makosnax]

With your logic it is non sense for party boats to charge 60 dollars. You create more business and return customers by offering a good experience at a fair price. I'll be damned if im gonna pay 125 to go fluking when the guy on the party boat fifty yards away paid sixty bucks.

[BWhaler23]

Ok fellas I've heard and read enough.... Time to through my hat into the ring... I've got a twin engine boston whaler cc with tipical electronics and I've had it inshore for stripers and fluke and offshore for tuna... got all my paperwork and insurance....I guess $100. a head for a full day more for offshore and will take it from there.... Now don't all jump in at once and lets go fishn'...


Capt. Pat

[SaltLife1980]

The economy is not that great so that plays a role too. Another factor is maybe some of the boat owners have less expenses.. Or maybe they have the finances to just do it for fun and not need to money to live.. The price has to cover your expenses.. so if a boat can charge cheaper and still pay the bills and make a little money then more power to them.. Like if a boat can charge less but fill the boat and fish say everyday they will make money because the lower price will add up due to the amount of trips the boat makes..

[Reel Class]

Let's call a duck a duck and a horse a horse. This thread is about price gouging in the charter boat industry. It's about nothing more.

Think about it this way. You're driving down route 35, and you get to gas station A and see he's charging $2.75/gallon, wow! The guy in gas station B a half mile away is charging $3.75/gallon, you're not gonna go there because you wanna save a few bucks. You fill up with gas station A, as does 20 other people, and a week later, you're broken down b/c you got bad fuel and now you gotta pay for any repairs that need to be done.

The bottom line, Capt Kris said a few pages back, is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Yes, for some of us, there are more expenses in terms of fuel and bait, and prices are adjusted accordingly. Some of us don't have the luxury of pulling out of our slip and drifting in the channel a mile away and catching some fish while most of the day your engine is idling and not burning fuel.

Typically, for me (and most other "shore area" guys to get my guys into fish on any given day, I'm covering a minimum of 10 miles, if not more, from dock to dock. I, like everyone else, try to keep my fares fair and reasonable - my engines and boat are good on fuel, we buy bait in bulk, etc.

With that said, I still have to make $$ on my trips. Yes, this is "part time" for me except for the summer when we do this full time and there is no $$ coming in; my business is paying bills - I have a family to feed, I have mortgage(s), other bills, etc. I, like most other guys have good intentions while running this business - it's the guys that have different intentions, or no intentions at all except to be some kind of a folk hero that takes guys fishing to cover the costs of his boat, that this thread is directed at. (Correct me if I'm wrong Vin!)

[reefsquater]

It's all clear now.


The party boats blame the charters for now having open boats which they didn't years ago. They are the best because they are on the water more then anyone.

The full time captain blames the part timers for coming into the business. They are the best because they are on the water almost as much as the party boat and have more range and smaller pieces they fish.

The part timers blame other part timers that don't offer as great a product as them. They are as good as the full time guy and they go the extra mile to put meat in the box.

The casual part timer considers himself as a good as any and just does it for the love of fishing.

The government blames it on overfishing, with the guys above clearly all taking way too many of this resource.

The conservatives blame the economy. No one is making money so prices need to be cheaper.



And the people who fish, last of all, don't care where the blame is. All of them just want a fair service at a reasonable price and find the option that fits them nicely.

[jenny lee sportfishing]

i must admit you are 100% correct. when the economy is struggling and prices are down/competitive the winner is the public. however, in all business generally speaking when you cut cost something is usually sacrificed. there most certainly are charter operations that really don't care or need to profit, but at the sake of integrity for the full time ones that do, i personally feel that running well under the industry is not a good practice. once again, i do realize that john q public is the benefactor of this practice.

[Flukinator]

It's all clear now.


The party boats blame the charters for now having open boats which they didn't years ago. They are the best because they are on the water more then anyone.

The full time captain blames the part timers for coming into the business. They are the best because they are on the water almost as much as the party boat and have more range and smaller pieces they fish.

The part timers blame other part timers that don't offer as great a product as them. They are as good as the full time guy and they go the extra mile to put meat in the box.

The casual part timer considers himself as a good as any and just does it for the love of fishing.

The government blames it on overfishing, with the guys above clearly all taking way too many of this resource.

The conservatives blame the economy. No one is making money so prices need to be cheaper.



And the people who fish, last of all, don't care where the blame is. All of them just want a fair service at a reasonable price and find the option that fits them nicely.

Well-said. As I said on page 2, finger-pointing at each other isn't helping anyone. The fishing industry has enough stacked against it, and there are plenty of external issues to deal with.

And yes, you do get what you pay for. Paying less to go on a small boat with a captain who won't do too much to help you will work for some people (I don't mind this, as I often prefer to rig, cut bait, filet fish, etc. by myself), and won't for others. You pay a premium for premium service. I don't think people booking charters are oblivious to this fact! John Q. Public who fishes once or twice a year is going to go for the premium service because he can't do that stuff himself. Capt. Cheapo is likely going to take out customers who know what they're doign and just want a boat to fish on. In that way, everyone still gets what they want. I don't see how this hurts the industry more than ridiculous regulations and closed seasons.

[buckfin732]

So if a part time guy gets in the business to just cover expenses because he loves to fish is somehow a villen?Not everyone needs to make a ton of money and do it to be out on the water.Some guy do it to supplement there income and some guys do it for sole income.That's what makes this country great.The American Dream.A seat for every ass.The cheap Ass the frugal Ass the rich Ass and the dumb Ass.People will garvatate to what their pockets can afford.

[Fin Reaper]

Because of the way things are (economy, Sandy, fishing regs) Captains and Fishermen are being forced to make decisions that they previously didn't have to make. I only have so much disposable income so raising the price means I fish less, BUT I would rather fish less and have a higher quality trip than save a few bucks and deal with low quality bait and fishing areas based on fuel consumption rather than were the fish are. IMHO, the Walmart mentality is infanitly more distructive. You do get what you pay for.

John Ruskin said “There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey.”

[Pete]

There are just far too many variables here to give the right answer. There are boats with many amenities heat / ac, bigger faster engines, larger cockpits, shaded area, etc. etc. In the end though it is about catching fish. The better captains always manage to find them, even in the worst conditions. That is not to say they haven't ever returned to port with the donut. A one price minimum fits all just doesn't make sense. I have fished on boats with all the creature comforts, and the captain and crew did everything but wipe my arse. And, other boats where the fuel burned was at a minimum and the mate was more occupied with his I-phone rather than the fares. I prefer to do most of the heavy lifting myself, baiting, tying rigs, hook removal etc. But, not everyone does. There are many boats that I plunk down the higher end fare to, because they are worth it. And, others that I'd never sail with again. If I can experiment and find out firsthand who does it just as good for cheaper, lucky me. But, I have been burned as well. Cheaper can be just as good, sometimes even better. The guys who think (and I emphasize think) they are good at it, but aren't, won't be around very long at any price.

If there are guys doing this and losing money due to cheap fares, and no other reason, I say, shame on them. That just doesn't make sense.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Some good dialog here.... I would have bet big money this post was going to get ugly quick. Nice to see everyone is being level headed and civil. Hope I just didn't jinx myself :rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned water always seeks it's own level. That is to say in a free market ecomomy things take care of themselves. Boat owners and their patrons make their own choices and sooner or later there is a bottom and top established and most settle somewhere in the middle.

The guys at the top enjoy and likley deserve a premium, if not they won't have customers.... Guys at the bottom are looking for volume or maybe to establish themselves but if they don't charge enough, sooner or later it's a going out of business proposition.

[GDubya07]

I go based on experiance not so much the price. I am just lucky people let me on there boat

Go with whatever you can afford and what you are comfortable with.

There will always be a price war in any business

I like both party and charter boats and have personal favorites for all different reasons

GDubs-:cool:

[Capt Sal]

Compared to out of state NJ is way less $$$ to charter!

[Jay]

Compared to out of state NJ is way less $$$ to charter!

As much as I love fishing, that is why I can't see myself traveling out of state. By the time you calculate expenses you could take yourself and you spouse on a vacation to the Caribeaan. Just saying... :D

[The Bill TM]

I chalk it up to different strokes for different folks. I like to go fishing based on experience of the boat but some of my friends want a nicer boat with good beer and only have to reel a fish in once then go back to drinking. Some of my other friends never came fishing before and want to go on a boat that caters to fishing noobs. I also know someone down in Florida who just got his 6 pack and intentionally charges less than he can make a profit off of just so he can get experience(he obviously lets the clients know this when they book).

My point is that I think variety is not a bad thing when it allows diverse groups of people with different agendas and financial limits to find something more custom tailored to what they are looking for.

[jerseyhunter]

I like Gerry's post he spot on. That being said I always believed that you get what you pay for and after all these years I find my self being wrong. I am in my own business and mostly out of work due to the economy . But my prices are low, the workmanship good and my saying now is "some money is better than no money" So I believe if a Capt'n runs an open boat or needs to fill some spots they should cut the fare to draw in customers and more than likely repeat customers. I enjoy charters but also head boat. JMO.

[Andreas Toy]

Great thread Vinnie. I feel that at the end of the day the consumer has many options. Due to a variety reasons they choose what charter/party boat option is best for them. Andreas Toy has been around for 12 years averaging 100 charters per year with repeat customers. As far as Andreas Toy is concerned we are not the lowest fare on the block for charters and do not offer open boat inshore trips. However, we make it up on longer days, mixed bag variety and commitment to our customers. I do truly believe that the end of the day the cream always rises. Those captains that choose to offer lower a lower fare have their reasons, and yes could be considered price gouging because they do not know better, but it will be a tough situation over time for them having to deal with challenges detailed below. I Wish them luck moving forward.

1.Kick ass Capts with a long history that usually find fish.
2.Fast or comfortable boats depending on your desires.
3.Network of reputable Capts that are always on the bite.
4.Rising Insurance fees,slips costs,boat maintenance, and high-end equipment
5.Regulation fish retainment limits that make no sense.

[Fish Tank]

since my name was brought up concerning this ridiculous controversy over pricing, i feel i have to speak my mind. first, i want to make it perfectly clear i wish only the best for my comrades who are involved in the charter and party boat industry. nobody, i repeat ,nobody is going to dictate how i run my business. my prices are set for one purpose, to take care of my patrons most of whom have been with me for over twenty years. these folks are hard-core fishermen and need to fish every week. they are mostly blue collar workers and i am not going to price them out of their passion for what we love to do. when you get on any boat that i run you can expect a clean and well equipped craft and great service. regardless of price you can bet you will receive 110 percent from my crew and me. yes, you will be rigged up, fish cleaned and anything that contributes to a great day on the water. most of all, more often than not, i will put you on the meat! any doubts, give me a shot. sincerely, capt. tom joseph

[O'Connor]

Great thread Vinnie. I feel that at the end of the day the consumer has many options. Due to a variety reasons they choose what charter/party boat option is best for them. Andreas Toy has been around for 12 years averaging 100 charters per year with repeat customers. As far as Andreas Toy is concerned we are not the lowest fare on the block for charters and do not offer open boat inshore trips. However, we make it up on longer days, mixed bag variety and commitment to our customers. I do truly believe that the end of the day the cream always rises. Those captains that choose to offer lower a lower fare have their reasons, and yes could be considered price gouging because they do not know better, but it will be a tough situation over time for them having to deal with challenges detailed below. I Wish them luck moving forward.

1.Kick ass Capts with a long history that usually find fish.
2.Fast or comfortable boats depending on your desires.
3.Network of reputable Capts that are always on the bite.
4.Rising Insurance fees,slips costs,boat maintenance, and high-end equipment
5.Regulation fish retainment limits that make no sense.


With all due respect, price gouging has nothing to do with being the lowest price in the market. An example of price gouging would be charging $15 a gallon for gas after Sandy.


Others that mentioned competiting businesses sitting down and setting prices would be an example of collusion.


It is a tough life with long hours. You choose to be a captain for a living you have to deal with intense competition, changing regs, weather, no benefits etc, etc. One of the best captains I know is in his 30's and still lives with his parents. Sad, but true. I do not think another few hundred a day will solve the problem.

[Andreas Toy]

O'connor, should be in a Northeast Charter-Party boat Captains-Business owners shoes and you would understand. Price-gouging maybe the wrong term used, pardon my use of words. I'm all for competition, but there are unfortunately some guys that are out as a hobby, but customers will figure that out in time.

[O'Connor]

O'connor, should be in a Northeast Charter-Party boat Captains-Business owners shoes and you would understand. Price-gouging maybe the wrong term used, pardon my use of words, maybe low-balling is a better word?



Well, charter captains do not have the market cornered on highly competitive business climates. I also have to compete with "regional" players who are 1/20th the size of my company, but often can provide a better price due to much lower overhead etc. They have the right to price cheap and I compete with them and and do well. Many business have to deal with cheaper prices coming from overseas...the list goes on. It is the same everywhere. I am a good customer, tip well and enjoy fishing on charter boats. I also have absolutely zero aspirations to be a charter captain. The original question was about pricing for a day of fishing. If a guy wants to charge cost to take people fishing he will be of no consequence for the truly talented captains such as yourself. Although I have never fished with you I would like to when I get back that way as your reputation is excellent. I doubt you would fear a part timer in an 18 foot bayliner who takes tourists fluking from Memorial day to Labor day. He will never be able to touch your customer base.

[Andreas Toy]

O'conor, totally agree with your observations, as they say Life is Bitch, it's amazing that all of our life struggles even touch fishing, which is suppose to be the escape?

[Jay]

since my name was brought up concerning this ridiculous controversy over pricing, i feel i have to speak my mind. first, i want to make it perfectly clear i wish only the best for my comrades who are involved in the charter and party boat industry. nobody, i repeat ,nobody is going to dictate how i run my business. my prices are set for one purpose, to take care of my patrons most of whom have been with me for over twenty years. these folks are hard-core fishermen and need to fish every week. they are mostly blue collar workers and i am not going to price them out of their passion for what we love to do. when you get on any boat that i run you can expect a clean and well equipped craft and great service. regardless of price you can bet you will receive 110 percent from my crew and me. yes, you will be rigged up, fish cleaned and anything that contributes to a great day on the water. most of all, more often than not, i will put you on the meat! any doubts, give me a shot. sincerely, capt. tom joseph

Definitely, will give you shot. Please keep me posted on any open charters. Speak your mind Capt! :D

[O'Connor]

O'conor, totally agree with your observations, as they say Life is Bitch, it's amazing that all of our life struggles even touch fishing, which is suppose to be the escape?


I saw a program on tv the other night where guys walk around the woods yelling like idiots and banging pieces of wood together. They call it "squatching" aka bigfoot hunting. maybe I will take that up as a hobby in lieu of fishing. :)

[sportfishingusa]

since my name was brought up concerning this ridiculous controversy over pricing, i feel i have to speak my mind. first, i want to make it perfectly clear i wish only the best for my comrades who are involved in the charter and party boat industry. nobody, i repeat ,nobody is going to dictate how i run my business. my prices are set for one purpose, to take care of my patrons most of whom have been with me for over twenty years. these folks are hard-core fishermen and need to fish every week. they are mostly blue collar workers and i am not going to price them out of their passion for what we love to do. when you get on any boat that i run you can expect a clean and well equipped craft and great service. regardless of price you can bet you will receive 110 percent from my crew and me. yes, you will be rigged up, fish cleaned and anything that contributes to a great day on the water. most of all, more often than not, i will put you on the meat! any doubts, give me a shot. sincerely, capt. tom joseph

Just for the record tom, i did not bring you up in this thread one bit, and being ridiculous is not really what this thread is. It was concerning why people charge below standard aka low balling if you might call it. I am simply stating, why charge less when you can charge more, numbers are number, math is math, add it up and if you charge 3/4 of what you could charge, then you are selling yourself short in the long run and working hard to make less money.

Seasons are short in this area, unless you travel around and have a full book year round to maximize your potential, the 200 max posssible days you can really fish up here are not going to really cut it, but that is just my opinion.. and like i said, this was general, one of your customers or friends or whatevers, brought your name up, no one else in this discussion did that.

[jenny lee sportfishing]

vin, 1:44 am you musta been out on a job.

i leave brielle@3:40 every day

[sportfishingusa]

vin, 1:44 am you musta been out on a job.

i leave brielle@3:40 every day



All day every day dave. lol We should start meeting for breakfast. lol