Lets legalize freedom!

[Kevin Bogan]

There have been several threads over the past week or so dealing with fish regulations. One topic, a well known party boat that has been in service since the 1930's, that had numerous violations by the passengers, and plenty of law enforcement officers, enforcing regulations. Another topic was Fluke regs for this upcoming season, where we will see a decline in the amount of keepers per individual. And a few threads about blackfis regs.
As we see from a variety of readers/anglers, something bad happens, and a lot of finger pointing and blame follows. The fact is, no matter which fishery,or season, it is clear that we are simply losing our freedoms to do something as simple and basic as going fishing. We complain, march on Washington, blame another angler, boat captain, but, it's clear to me that fishing as we knew it fast becoming something of the past.
The writings on the wall!

[Art Berkman]

Well said !!!

[Pokerman1]

I would outlaw all the trawlers and commercial fishing boats, worldwide. Only party boats, charter and private boats allowed. The same size/length/season restrictions should apply to every single person.

Obviously, this would eliminate the need for restrictions on selling your catch and create a true open market.

Imagine all the people, living life in peace. You might say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Joe

[blkbear]

We complain, march on Washington, blame another angler, boat captain, but, it's clear to me that fishing as we knew it fast becoming something of the past.
The writings on the wall!

We see this happening to many things these days, As the population changes people see things and react and say what they believe should be done having no knowledge of the subject. In the past most of the population knew someone first hand or participated their self and had a better Idea of the subject and could make a reasonable decision to better it.

Now we get junk science, knee jerk reactions and sky is falling on everything we do. You get NOAA sending a boat out once or twice and finding low numbers of fish and they scream Stop , shut it down. I see this in hunting too one guy doing a study of 1/2 day in the woods and sees 50 deer in a field and says to many , while a guy doing another study see hardly any deer. Who’s right ? When you use the quick science like we use now use you get only a small idea of the true picture .but government agencies use this junk science to manage our resources , it’s all computer models not hard facts........ Its all half assed.

[Chico]

"Obviously, this would eliminate the need for restrictions on selling your catch and create a true open market." This would not eliminate commercial fishing, it would mean we are ALL commercial fishermen!! "Money is the root of all evil".

[pectoralfin]

I will not give up that easily and support several groups (RFA etc) that I feel will do us the most good. I worked for over 40 years and will not give in to a group of self serving individuals that claims to know whats good for me. This country was founded by the principle that the government should be " of the people, by the people, and for the people". NOT over the people. We voted them in, we can vote them out.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Leif]

There have been several threads over the past week or so dealing with fish regulations. One topic, a well known party boat that has been in service since the 1930's, that had numerous violations by the passengers, and plenty of law enforcement officers, enforcing regulations. Another topic was Fluke regs for this upcoming season, where we will see a decline in the amount of keepers per individual. And a few threads about blackfis regs.
As we see from a variety of readers/anglers, something bad happens, and a lot of finger pointing and blame follows. The fact is, no matter which fishery,or season, it is clear that we are simply losing our freedoms to do something as simple and basic as going fishing. We complain, march on Washington, blame another angler, boat captain, but, it's clear to me that fishing as we knew it fast becoming something of the past.
The writings on the wall!
All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words:

freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.

Sir Winston Churchill

[Detour66]

The writing has been on the wall for many years now! These fish will NEVER be wiped out by a rod and reel fisherman. Never! They need to re-evaluate the whole situation!

[Gerry Zagorski]

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. -- Ronald Reagan (1986)

[hammer4reel]

The writing has been on the wall for many years now! These fish will NEVER be wiped out by a rod and reel fisherman. Never! They need to re-evaluate the whole situation!


When it comes to some of the fisheries nothing could be further from the truth. Flounder was WAY over fished for way too many years when they were in small tight confined pockets , and the days of guys filling garbage cans and coolers def had a GIANT impact on them.

Too much greed on what everyone thinks they are entitled to on both sides of the fishing fence.

The IM going to get mine attitude alot of fisherman have today has def put more of a hurt on the fishery than we all want to believe.

sure a drag boat gets alot of fish in one haul, but 5000 boats fishing the same section of the coast , the numbers add up QUICK too.

Just think if every fisherman registered in NJ just caught one limit of bass , thats half a million bass
a limit of fluke a million and a quarter ,

and that can happen in 1 Day

[Capt. Lou]

Freedoms are already legalized but we do not respect them! Go to any fisheries meeting and see who shows up to voice an opinion!
We are the blame for a lot of what goes on regarding fisheries regs, most only talk, many do not even belong or donate a red cent to help offset expenses associated with fighting these battles,
Take a hint from Sierra Club ,TU & a host of others they get people to participate at all levels , come up with the cash & get a lot done.
We have a handful of guys that really understand what's going on & even they will not compare notes!
Good Luck, we got what we gave ourselves by sitting on the sidelines for years!!
Let me say it for you I "DID" not attend all the meetings I should have either ,but I've been at more than my share. There
s more than enough blame to go around I'll take my share. However until we all realize the need to participate at some level ,we have a long way to go to enact laws that we can live with fisheries wise,

[O'Connor]

Has anyone else noticed how difficult fishing has become? All of this stuff is more exhausting then work. Fuel prices, fish regs, intranets, secret tog crabs shipped in from Iceland, $1,000 spinning reels, 400 lb bluefins on push button zebcos, crowds, cheaters, fisherman that look like nascar drivers because they are "pro staff" everything, Same guys crying about commercials when they get paid to kill fish also??!! I feel bad for the guys in the business...my advice...for the young guys under 30, get the hell out! Don't be stupid! For the old salts...God help ya. It is an honest way to make a living, and it sucks the sport we love has become such a shit show from so many different angles. I love fishing, but it is getting harder to enjoy it without all the nonsense that goes along with it.


I long for the days of a night crawler, bobber and a cold beer. :o

[mickrazz]

Nothing or no one stopping you from fishing with a bobber and a worm. The power of choice is yours.

[bunker dunker]

its not just fishing,look around.

[Wilson]

Nothing or no one stopping you from fishing with a bobber and a worm. The power of choice is yours.
A individual can partake in the sport of fishing or the business of fishing...the choice is yours and yours alone to make.
Pass the worms please.

[italianfisherman]

Freedoms are already legalized but we do not respect them! Go to any fisheries meeting and see who shows up to voice an opinion!
We are the blame for a lot of what goes on regarding fisheries regs, most only talk, many do not even belong or donate a red cent to help offset expenses associated with fighting these battles,
Take a hint from Sierra Club ,TU & a host of others they get people to participate at all levels , come up with the cash & get a lot done.
We have a handful of guys that really understand what's going on & even they will not compare notes!
Good Luck, we got what we gave ourselves by sitting on the sidelines for years!!
Let me say it for you I "DID" not attend all the meetings I should have either ,but I've been at more than my share. There
s more than enough blame to go around I'll take my share. However until we all realize the need to participate at some level ,we have a long way to go to enact laws that we can live with fisheries wise,
I'LL 2ND THAT..

[Harpoon]

I hear Canada is always looking for a new resident! LOL

[Tony Cav]

When it comes to some of the fisheries nothing could be further from the truth. Flounder was WAY over fished for way too many years when they were in small tight confined pockets , and the days of guys filling garbage cans and coolers def had a GIANT impact on them.

Too much greed on what everyone thinks they are entitled to on both sides of the fishing fence.

The IM going to get mine attitude alot of fisherman have today has def put more of a hurt on the fishery than we all want to believe.

sure a drag boat gets alot of fish in one haul, but 5000 boats fishing the same section of the coast , the numbers add up QUICK too.

Just think if every fisherman registered in NJ just caught one limit of bass , thats half a million bass
a limit of fluke a million and a quarter ,

and that can happen in 1 Day

Nice to hear a voice of reason to counter all the anti-commercial voices.

My Dutch and German ancestors have been in this country since 1640.....they were commercial and professional fisherman and market hunters in Long Island........I am not a commercial fisherman and am pro-conservation of our resources.

Too much regulation.....BAD!...Too little regulation....BAD! Somewhere there is a happy medium.

When you want to have lobster for dinner....who catches them? When you want clams, spearing, squid, crabs for bait....who catches them? When you feed your dog or cat or fertilize your lawn, when your wife buys make up, when you go to the sushi bar........

It is down right ignorant and short sighted to point the finger at the comms as solely responsible for the decimation of our fisheries.

As for conservation.........gotta have regulations.........reasonable, sensible, based on fact and fairy shared between all interests. AND that is not a simple as WE like to portray.

P.S.....Being pro-conservation does not mean "environmentalist"

[Kevin Bogan]

Has anyone else noticed how difficult fishing has become? All of this stuff is more exhausting then work. Fuel prices, fish regs, intranets, secret tog crabs shipped in from Iceland, $1,000 spinning reels, 400 lb bluefins on push button zebcos, crowds, cheaters, fisherman that look like nascar drivers because they are "pro staff" everything, Same guys crying about commercials when they get paid to kill fish also??!! I feel bad for the guys in the business...my advice...for the young guys under 30, get the hell out! Don't be stupid! For the old salts...God help ya. It is an honest way to make a living, and it sucks the sport we love has become such a shit show from so many different angles. I love fishing, but it is getting harder to enjoy it without all the nonsense that goes along with it.


I long for the days of a night crawler, bobber and a cold beer. :o
I see what you are saying. There are loads of experts out there that have a different job, but on weekends they are expert fishermen. How often we bad mouth the commercial guys, and we have good examples of rod and reel guys breaking the laws. I was involved in Fluke fishery mangement when it first started. My recollection was it started at 14", I think it was 8 fish. What I remember clearly is how many guys said to me for the first few years, I had a few 14's on the boat, and after catching a few bigger fish, threw back the 14's. That's noble of them, but the fact is, the fish were already dead.:mad: <Many will deny this, but I have heard numerous times as well as other tackle shop and party/charter boat owners that I know.
Bunker said it best, "just look around". If they opened up every fishery and let you keep as many as you wanted, something else will take place, like fuel and gas costing twice the price, or insurance, or food. America is simply on it's last legs. I was fornuate enough to have grown up on party boats and see the best of most fisheries. Those days are gone, and unlikely to return. For anyone who says, "we can vote them out", that doesnt work, we have done that over several generations, and the BS continues.

[bunker dunker]

amen kevin,i to am glad i got to see the "good old days' and be part of a better way of life.

[JBird]

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. -- Ronald Reagan (1986)

Good old Ronnie Raygun wasn't half as conservative as people remember. Overall, taxes went UP under Reagan and he and his administration helped deregulate Wall St. ( along with Slick Willy, Bush 1 and 2) which helped lead us to where we are now; the greatest disparity in wealth the country has ever known and a giant crap sanwich the 99% has been eating since 2008.

But I digress...

I believe NOAA mostly has their head up their butts but I also recognize that some regulation is needed. I believe that had we done nothing in the past (no pollution control, no seasons, no bag/size limits etc) we would have no fishery at all. For anything, really. The New York Bight would be a stinking, fishless cesspool. Do we need better science and research? You bet. Just don't be mad if the results don't please you.

Times have changed and the writing is indeed on the wall. Our worldwide human population will continue to put enormous pressure on the oceans to provide sustenance. Recreational anglers don't put anything on the endangered species list but we still need to recognize our impact and we must be good stewards of the resource that belongs to all of us.

Overall, we tried "freedom" for the better part of 200 years and it guess what? People are greedy. If we are all "free" to do as we please then you will end up with a lot of honest people doing the right thing and a minority screwing the whole thing up by polluting and overfishing (seriously, a garbage can full of flounder? and you wonder why we now have limits).
Been there, done that. That's why we have these restrictive rules to begin with. Are they stupid and useless and using flawed science at times? Yup.

But the alternative of total freedom doesn't work either, unfortunately, as we can see through years as some fisheries collapsed. See: cod, striped bass, redfish etc.

"But wait!" you say. "There are tons of bass and redfish and cod are coming back!"
Yeah. You know why? Rules and regulations. Sometimes it works. Sometimes.

[Kevin Bogan]

amen kevin,i to am glad i got to see the "good old days' and be part of a better way of life.
Bunker, It just seems to get worse as we go along. You still have the fishing talent to put together a good catch when you go.;)

[O'Connor]

Nothing or no one stopping you from fishing with a bobber and a worm. The power of choice is yours.


I am sure impaling a worm on a hook in California where I live is illegal.

[mahigold]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/06/new-yorkers-gov-cuomo-wants-you-to-go-fishing/

[Leif]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/06/new-yorkers-gov-cuomo-wants-you-to-go-fishing/
Yeah and meanwhile he approves of "fracking the crap out of the area"

Leif

[sportfishingusa]

Did they ban fishing all together? did i miss something? as far as i can tell in nj they are just restricting certain things.. I still have the freedom at this time to fish, just not to keep as much as i want.. kinda like shopping with coupons, you can use 1 coupon per person per transaction, i have the right to go back to the store every day and use it, i just can not go back and try to use 108 at once. hahahah



Like Dan (o'connor) said, california is a complete disastrous nightmare, we have it pretty good compared to them right now.

[Ol Pedro]

Like Dan (o'connor) said, california is a complete disastrous nightmare, we have it pretty good compared to them right now.[/QUOTE]
Sportie my Friend , they saw it coming in California and too few people took action . Two of my Friends in San Diego stopped Saltwater Fishing all together . Don't think for one second that it won't happen here .

[M Rod]

Catch restrictions are a must but they cannot be a fisheries saving grace. Catching less fish will not and never improve a fishery. We need to spend more time replacing a footprint that we wiped away 40 years ago. If we make an effort to restore the live bottom that was wiped away to almost nothing many years ago, we will see fisheries thrive like never before. Fish need habitat to thrive. If we replace what we wiped out then fish will thrive. Catching less fish doesnt do sh*t for our future. We need to make more fish through habitat restoration. Plain and simple.

[O'Connor]

Like Dan (o'connor) said, california is a complete disastrous nightmare, we have it pretty good compared to them right now.
Sportie my Friend , they saw it coming in California and too few people took action . Two of my Friends in San Diego stopped Saltwater Fishing all together . Don't think for one second that it won't happen here .[/QUOTE]

Just heard the "Indian" out of Pt. Loma went out of business. They referenced increasing regs. and fuel prices as the reason. Out here they get you on bag limits, closed seasons and the big kick in the stones is when they shut down areas of coast like you referenced. Imagine shutting down sandy hook point around to the cedars. That is what we just lost at Point Vicente to abalone cove. Used to be a great spot for white sea bass and halibut. For a fight now I just go down to the MMA Gym and get my head kicked in by 20 year olds. Much more fun.

[Ol Pedro]

Sportie my Friend , they saw it coming in California and too few people took action . Two of my Friends in San Diego stopped Saltwater Fishing all together . Don't think for one second that it won't happen here .

Just heard the "Indian" out of Pt. Loma went out of business. They referenced increasing regs. and fuel prices as the reason. Out here they get you on bag limits, closed seasons and the big kick in the stones is when they shut down areas of coast like you referenced. Imagine shutting down sandy hook point around to the cedars. [/QUOTE] I hear you Brother . They did all that work to get the White Seabass and Halibut back then they close the waters . The Bambi's are winning out there .

[broken bobber]

I long for the days of a night crawler, bobber and a cold beer. :o


Bobber and Cold Beer......:D ...... when ya coming home son..... :)

[Islander II]

Just think, we catch those fish, we eat them. When a dragger hauls his net, and he has a thousand pounds, or more, over his limit, those fish go back as by-catch. So, if you add up the amount of fish that go back, dead, that adds up too. A lot more! The recreational fisherman did not wipe out the stocks!

[italianfisherman]

Just think, we catch those fish, we eat them. When a dragger hauls his net, and he has a thousand pounds, or more, over his limit, those fish go back as by-catch. So, if you add up the amount of fish that go back, dead, that adds up too. A lot more! The recreational fisherman did not wipe out the stocks!
AGREE...

[kmaty]

Can anyone tell me the diffrence which takes more a trawler that takes 1000lbs of fluke or a party boat that takes a thousand pound of fluke. I have done alot of ling fishing this winter and i Have seen countless baskets of cleand ling if the trawler takes the same why is he the bad guy.

TRawler by catch sucks but so do we when we catch just as much.

[piston529]

I'm thinking the commercial boat will harvest 1000 lbs in a much shorter period of time especially with the 14 inch size limit they enjoy. Then do it all over again.

Joe
panacure@aol.com

[Detour66]

When it comes to some of the fisheries nothing could be further from the truth. Flounder was WAY over fished for way too many years when they were in small tight confined pockets , and the days of guys filling garbage cans and coolers def had a GIANT impact on them.

I have to disagree sir... not even close to what the draggers are bringing in! How can we be close .. they are feeding the masses of the world! Supplying seafood for the restaurants, fish markets, animal food and mass produced frozen fish products. Yeah years back guys would catch and keep more than they should but to say this will compete with a boat with spotter planes and a mother ship, no way! I say freedom .... but not a slaughterer!

[JBird]

Spotter planes for flounder?

[hammer4reel]

I have to disagree sir... not even close to what the draggers are bringing in! How can we be close .. they are feeding the masses of the world! Supplying seafood for the restaurants, fish markets, animal food and mass produced frozen fish products. Yeah years back guys would catch and keep more than they should but to say this will compete with a boat with spotter planes and a mother ship, no way! I say freedom .... but not a slaughterer!


I didnt say we are beating them in total catch , your post said rod and reel fisherman can never hurt a fishery. I showed you real numbers for what could be caught by the AMOUNT of recreational fisherman just here in NJ .

boats feeding the World are not just catching the fish off the NJ coast.

When you add up how Little a catch needs to be caught when your talking about over a 1/4 million anglers it adds up fast

[lingding]

Lot's of responses here.- lots of good input.

One thing I think all fishermen could agreee on (and all scientists could not refute) is that if we had an 'any' rule it would work and also achieve conservation rules.

'ANY fisherman can take up to 10 Fish ANY time, ANY size and ANY where'; beyond the first 10 fish, formal rules and regs kick in.

It's too easy, and satisfies too many consituents. - and that's why they would never allow it! They are taking away our liberties, but they can't take away my dream of a better society. Let's not give up the good fight!

[DBJR]

No comment... Lets catch fish in season.

[Detour66]

Spotter planes for flounder?

Your a funny guy!

[Canyonfish]

I love to fish ,,,,, both surf and from my skiff out of AHMM and the occasional party boat and off shore 6 pack trip .....

Summary of maiden voyage last spring with my 3 ....14 yearold boys (yea triplets)

* Launching at AHMM in the AM .... boarded by CG for saftey inspection .... 30 min later have my CG inspection sticker ... new boat with all the gear so NP - understand they are doing their jobs....

* First few drifts near the white cans ca out front of Ammo pier ..... always staying outside restricted zone .... twice passed by gun boats ... hey - understand - high security area

* Fishing all day ... throwing back many just short and even a few right at 18 ... just in case ... explaining to my kids ... not worth it if the shrink up a quarter inch during the day

* Pull together a few keepers ..... back at dock ..... F&G checking fish size at the dock .... hey that's fine with me ..... ours wre all over 19 ... glad to see they are checking

My kids were saying ... Dad there are a lot of rules ... I said yea ... the only rules we had when we wer 15 were from my Mom ... saying don't bring home to many fish ....... it makes a mess of the sink ......

Man how things have changed ... I understand all of the rules ... and how they are all for saftey, security and fisheries reasons ..... but they do suck some of the life out of a fun day on the water ..... and for those who make their livelyhood on the water running headboats and charters it must be overwhelming....

I also miss the freedoms of the good old days .....:(

[Toggytime]

You guys are on the wrong track, it's the government that's not letting us fish, not he commercial fisherman. Everyone has to stick together. Unitity is power, the government and the treehuggers want the recreational and commercial guys to pass the blame and fight with each other if we unite we will be that much stronger. The more people we have on our side the more power we have. They want rules and regulations so they can hire people to inforce them.

[Kevin Bogan]

Toggy, exactly right. Every year a few more fish police with new pick up trucks.

[tautog]

Freedom is legal but the permit is $250,000 to the political party in power.

[O'Connor]

Bobber and Cold Beer......:D ...... when ya coming home son..... :)


Hey Tom! I am taking my vacation in Chatam, Cape Cod this year; Along with various other fishing trips. I probably will not make it back to NJ. Got my hands on a 27 foot boston whaler outrage. It is docked down the street here in Redondo Beach. Come on out for a visit! Halibut, White Sea Bass, and a bottom fish that is called the giant black sea bass....150 plus lbers! They are protected, similar to goliath grouper, but I know where there are some real monsters and we often run into them. You can not take them out of the water, buy they fight real good like a giant drumfish.

[broken bobber]

I have to disagree sir... not even close to what the draggers are bringing in! How can we be close .. they are feeding the masses of the world! Supplying seafood for the restaurants, fish markets, animal food and mass produced frozen fish products. Yeah years back guys would catch and keep more than they should but to say this will compete with a boat with spotter planes and a mother ship, no way! I say freedom .... but not a slaughterer!

i dissagree with you sir.... I blame the bunker situation on the guys throwing cast nets everyday for bunker, sometimes 2-3 x a day, netting 100 plus bunker, then leaving a dead trail of bunker back to dock.. or even blowing threw the bait and going for more on the same trip..... :p

[Falcon]

Toggy, exactly right. Every year a few more fish police with new pick up trucks

After what I have been ready lately "looks like they are doing there job" and that's great.....Hope they keep it up...

[Capt. Lou]

Cast netting bunker is only a fraction of the fish a well placed commercial net will recover. Bait netters may add to the overall catch but tonnage wise I'm positive the bunker boats account for a lot more.
I do agree on wasteful tactics exibitied by some of the sport boats, even then I believe they pale in comparsion to a commercial operation & I am aware that their are commercial bait cast netters operating as well.
If Tuna were a hook & line commercial fish only do you think they would be near extinction in some regions.
My opinion commercial bunker fishing has to be regulated further & then you will see a bunker come back & the cast netters will not even come close to hurting the population now or then.

[Detour66]

If Tuna were a hook & line commercial fish only do you think they would be near extinction in some regions.
My opinion commercial bunker fishing has to be regulated further & then you will see a bunker come back & the cast netters will not even come close to hurting the population now or then. I totally agree... and you don't need a spotter plane to fiqure that one out! :rolleyes:

[team heat]

Was out on my boat the summer before last.Fishing was pretty slow and we saw a skiff type boat chasing a big school of bunker.THe next thing we see is 2 more bigger boats coming and the skiff starts circling the school of bunker.Now they deploy a net that surrounds the bunker school and the bigger boat starts drawing the net in.After they get the net real close to the side another big boat comes alongside and puts a big vacum inside the net to suck all the bunker into the tanks.Could not believe the amount of bunker they caught with just 1 drop of the net.If they are doing this every day all day its a miracle that there are any bunker left.If you see any of them out there take the time to observe them for awhile.

[piston529]

That's what I'm talking about
Thanks
Joe
Panacure@aol.com

[JBird]

Can anyone tell me the diffrence which takes more a trawler that takes 1000lbs of fluke or a party boat that takes a thousand pound of fluke. I have done alot of ling fishing this winter and i Have seen countless baskets of cleand ling if the trawler takes the same why is he the bad guy.

TRawler by catch sucks but so do we when we catch just as much.

It's simple. The trawler drags his net along the bottom causing a lot of destruction of habitat. Recreational anglers do not. There you go.

[Ol Pedro]

It's simple. The trawler drags his net along the bottom causing a lot of destruction of habitat. Recreational anglers do not. There you go.
Also think of the economic end . How much money is spent Partyboat fishing versus Commercial Fishing . Though they are both important which is better for the Economy . Which creates more jobs ? Which does more damage ?

[River Rat]

As the size of goverment increases personal liberty decreases ~ Thomas Jefferson