Some Comments on Fluke

[captadamnj]

Having attended and spoken at the NJ Marine Fisheries Council meeting yesterday, I will share my thoughts on the outcomes.

All options presented are considered "conservationally equivalent", meaning that in a perfect world, all will result in the same recreational landings of fish (in pounds). The "perfect world" makes many assumptions, with the most critical of which being that "effort and availability will remain the same as the previous year". We all know this is not true. Weather will be different. Cost of fishing (fuel, etc.) will effect the trips we sail. Fish migration patterns will differ affecting the when and the where we can catch fish. Factor in to that the variability of MRFSS which is simply an estimating tool based on a sampling of less than 1% of the fishing effort/landings and it is quickly apparent why we can't ever catch "exactly" our target. For these reasons, we have no idea what MRFSS is going to spit out for rec landings irregardless of the regulations.

I will, however, put forth the following information which was the basis for my decision to speak on behalf of 17.5". I understand that many of the opinions express on this board and at the meeting yesterday come from avid highly successful fishermen whom enjoyed a great deal of success last year. I commend and respect you for that. Understand, however, that there are hundreds of thousands of other fishermen/women that do not enjoy the successes you have had.

1) We did NOT lose season. The 2012 season is 5 DAYS LONGER THAN LAST YEAR and is the LONGEST IN A NUMBER OF YEARS.

2) The highest reported landings according to MRFSS have historically come from the longest open seasons. If your season is open, MRFSS reports landings no matter the known availability of fish, weather, etc.

3) NY has become the poster child of the negative impacts of MRFSS when choosing to go with longest possible seasons by the use of higher minimum sizes. Most would agree that hasn't worked.

4) The NJ Marine Fisheries Council, as LAB posted, has been within a couple % over an extended period of our target landings. Their management mechanism of choice over this time span has been to use size as the primary management tool as opposed to always trying for the longest possible season. The decision yesterday to again manage by size instead of opting for the longest possible season is consistent with that history and will, hopefully, continue the trend of relative success managing to the target.

5) The technical committee of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission composed of state biologists have stated time and time again that the best way to constrain harvest is through season. This decision is again consistent with that advice.

Again, I commend those of you "sharpies" that have enjoyed success at 18". You are the 10% that catch 90% of the fish as the saying goes. I understand and respect your position, but the decision passed down yesterday is consistent with the best information for constraining harvest to the target and will benefit many anglers giving them a better opportunity to harvest a fish to bring home.

Your mileage will vary on the above. Thanks to all whom have and continue to take the time to participate in the process.

[Tony Cav]

I am not a fluke sharpie and think that those of us doing a majority of our fishing in the Manasquan river from boat and wall are very pleased with this outcome. Absolutely!

[irishc]

Very well said capt.

[PocketFisherman]

Given that argument - shouldn't you have voted for Option 6?

[Pete]

Capt. Adam,

Thanks for your explanation of the new regulations and your reasons for supporting them. I wish you had weighed in on the poll before the vote was conducted. You may have opened up some eyes, then again, maybe not. Are the regulations agreed upon yesterday perfect? Probably not, I guess time will tell. But, they are put forth in hopes of making it better for all fishermen. Hopefully MRFSS will open their eyes, and realize that the fishing public does act responsibly and does desire to come up with a management plan that we can all live with. But, year in and year out we are at their mercy.

Good or bad it is what it is guys. Hopefully, next year you will get what you want, whatever that may be. I can assure we will never get back to the no min. and no closed season ever again. But, I believe that unbridled horse is what got us here in the first place.

Good luck! Catch 'em up.

Thanks to all the guys who showed up yesterday. No matter what option you favored. You at least showed commitment for your cause.

[broken bobber]

Given that argument - shouldn't you have voted for Option 6?

Thank You..... :)

[DMac]

I don't post on here a lot anymore, but I can not sit here and not comment at all on this. So we have lived at the 18" rule for 3 season now and last year I really saw the average size of the fish improve and it would continue to improve the longer you left the size limit at a certain size. Now we drop the size a 1/2" which I believe will have little impact on the number of "just short" fluke people will catch. Its about fishing areas that do not get the pressure or knowing how and when and with what to use to bring the bigger fish out to play. Yes dragging spearing ad squid will catch big fluke, but more big fish will be caught when you target them. You can take the biggest fluke sharpie in NJ of his boat/chosen for hire boat take away all his typical tackle and techniques and give him a rental rod and single hook with 40 people on a party boat all with the same bait right next to one another and while he might do better than most. He will not catch the same quality fish he would while fishing on his boat/chosen boat to hire using the skills and techniques he has developed over the years of learning and improving. So because people have worked to become better fisherman and be able to catch fish when others cant we have to suffer with shorter season and lower bag limit. How about the other 90% you talk about stepping up their game a little bit. Ill admit it I have a major addiction problem when it comes to fishing. If the government banned fishing I would rather be in prison or dead than stop. I work to pay for my fishing addiction, and it is my sanity in a F-d up world.

So now we have nothing inshore to fish for but stripers for part of the month of October, great so every boat on the ocean will be targeting one fish that should be great. I know you will come back and say blues and albies, and ling, but honestly albies could be gone depending on weather, and so could the blues. Both seabass and blackfish are closed for a big part of October.

Might even pull my boat earlier this year.

I will end by saying that I understand the desire to give people a better chance at catching keepers, but as soon as areas get picked over for a few weeks you will be throwing back a lot of 17 3/8 inch fish.

Throwing shorts back is a good thing makes me see the stock is health and i always say see you in a few years when I toss them back. Plus I never net a fluke even if I think it might be close to being a short or if I intend on releasing it anyway. I do not buy that throwback die if handled properly. Be kind to the future fish you will be catching no towels, cut the hook off if you have a deeply hooked fish it will rust out, don't put your hand in gills unless your taking picture prior to putting it in the box.

Ok I'm done.

I was so defeated when I heard the news. I didn't attend the meeting because it is over 2 hrs away and I could not take the day off work. I did attend the bft meeting last year and that really did not do anything for us.

[mako28]

It's very disturbing to me that a charter boat capt. and chairman of rfa is actually is voting for less size and bag limit. Do you realize that these laws that you voted for are the same that bought NY to it's knees? It's also disturbing that a charter boat captain voted to reduced size and bag limits, thats shows signs of weakness as far the captain of Karen Ann 2 goes. If you can't limit out with 8 fish at 18", you may think that at 17.5 and 5 fish a man, your chances will be easier. My opinion is if you had a 2 fish limit at 17", you still would have a problem limiting out. I'm just so disgusted as a fisherman of 40 years that there are captains out there in 2012 that actually will vote for a reduction in their catch. By any chance did you vote to have helicopters enforce the 3 mile limit when striper fishing? Next sea bass and tautog meeting I will attend to vote for a complete shut down of both, since you snj guys depend on that dearly and have destroyed fluke regs., we can both sell our boats and you and I can golf

[PocketFisherman]

It's very disturbing to me that a charter boat capt. and chairman of rfa is actually is voting for less size and bag limit. Do you realize that these laws that you voted for are the same that bought NY to it's knees? It's also disturbing that a charter boat captain voted to reduced size and bag limits, thats shows signs of weakness as far the captain of Karen Ann 2 goes. If you can't limit out with 8 fish at 18", you may think that at 17.5 and 5 fish a man, your chances will be easier. My opinion is if you had a 2 fish limit at 17", you still would have a problem limiting out. I'm just so disgusted as a fisherman of 40 years that there are captains out there in 2012 that actually will vote for a reduction in their catch. By any chance did you vote to have helicopters enforce the 3 mile limit when striper fishing? Next sea bass and tautog meeting I will attend to vote for a complete shut down of both, since you snj guys depend on that dearly and have destroyed fluke regs., we can both sell our boats and you and I can golf

Put down the pipe

[DMac]

oh yeah almost forgot if you want to email send me a PM me I will gladly send it to you just don't want to make my personal email public on public forum. Ill give you my phone to if you would like to discuss or even meet you for a drink if you want to chat over a few cold ones I really am a sensible guy that just enjoys fishing.

Have a great day

[hammer4reel]

What should be kept track of is how many fish ARE kept between 17 1/2 and 18, and how many are kept over 18. to compare whether losing 3 fish was worth how many were kept in that new elligble slot.

Probably going to see there are not as many in that half inch bracket as some have hoped for.

all that aside with all the talk last year through the SSFFF that they wanted to see a limit imposed that would target more male fish into the total catch , it seems that has also been lost in the shuffle as the new limit still will put more female fish than male fish into the daily catch.

and as far as a slot limit not being used because F&G felt it would be harder to enforce, they dont have a problem enforcing other rules that may not be as inportant to the fisheries, so that should not have been the reason to take that option off the shelf.

Hopefully guys remember next year and some things can be changed, but for now we have to make the best of what we got, as its already been SUOA

[captadamnj]

Given that argument - shouldn't you have voted for Option 6?

If the only concern was limiting harvest, then yes. But the goal is to find regulations that will provide the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Everyone needs days to fish and there was simply no way to justify shortening the season from 2011.

Do you realize that these laws that you voted for are the same that bought NY to it's knees?

Not true. What brought NY to it's knees is a broken system of assuming availability and effort will remain the same in every year combined with use of a system that samples 1% of effort and landings to generate an absolute number. In the "game" of MRFSS, NY played the game by keeping the season long, long, long. The Council did the exact opposite yesterday of what has gotten NY in trouble.

By any chance did you vote to have helicopters enforce the 3 mile limit when striper fishing?

Would A-10 Warthogs have been more appropriate? :eek: :D :D :p :p :D :D :eek:

[tautog]

NOAA actually built a Death Star to enforce the limits. No superlaser as they spent all the money on a cappicino machine and the worlds largest disco ball.

[Jigsmith]

Will the disco ball help them predict the wind?

[BlueDog]

I like the size limit and season length. As far as not being able to fish for anything in oct? Who said you couldn't fish for Seabass and blackfish?you can't keep them but no one is stoping u from fishing. I start black fishing in sept at the sandy hook reef because I love to fish for them, not because I want to fill my freezer.
Capt Art
24 Rampage express

[tautog]

Will the disco ball help them predict the wind?

No it's for the private parties they will be throwing on it.

[BCinerie]

Thanks to all that did what they did to try to help everyone if they know it or not!!!!

BC

[CaptTB]

In the "game" of MRFSS, NY played the game by keeping the season long, long, long. The Council did the exact opposite yesterday of what has gotten NY in trouble. That's not totally accurate Adam. The start of NY's troubles and the continuation of them resulted from constantly RAISING their size limit to keep season or extend it. NJ was not looking to increase size for season but maintain it. NY has since maintained or increased its season but with a VERY high size limit, much higher than NJ. I know I do not need to explain to you the difference in weight of a 20+ inch fish vs. an 18" fish and what that means to a states landings.

In addition, while you are correct about seasonal guidance from ASMFC staff, you will also recall that going down in size is always cautioned since they have little to no data to tell them what will happen. There has always been a caution that they cannot accurately predict (a relative term in fisheries management to be sure but you know what I mean in this context) what effect it will have.

I could go on with the previous cautions given byu tech staff every year there has been proposals to drop size limits, but I know you are aware of them already.

MRFSS is always a crap shoot, that is for sure!

[Angler Paul]

I am disappointed with the results of the meeting but the time to debate it was before or at the NJMFC meeting on 3/1. I did my best testifying in favor of the longer season but could only talk about 3 of my 10 points supporting it because each speaker was supposed to be limited to 2 minutes.There were sound arguments on each side. When speaking about the potential of exceeding our quota this year, I really don't think it matters much if we chose option 2 or option 5. One thing that matters is what type of season we have, some years the fishing is outstanding and other years it is poor. Unfortunately, what matters the most is the inaccurate data (MRFSS) that is being used to determine how many fish we caught. The data is inaccurate and is a real crap shoot. We have had some years where the fishing was poor coastwide throughout the season and we were told we overfished our quoata and the opposite has occurred as well. At this point we need to push for more accurate data and keep our fingers crossed that we do not exceed our quota.

[Cuz]

No one loves to catch fluke more than me. It's been an obsession since I was five years old. In 1955 my great-Uncle Joe and my second cousin Richard Human who lived on Jamaica Bay, L.I. built a wooden 16' boat together in their garage. I learned how to fluke fish from them in that boat. There weren't any size or bag limits. They still just kept decent size fish and just enough to eat. Maybe we ALL should go back to those days and not keep so many fish. No one said we have to catch limits every time we sail. I've seen so many pictures on this site of limit catches it got to be annoying.

I'm happy for all the children who are going fishing on a party boat this year. I witnessed a father, mother, son and daughter on the Sea Tiger this past July catching fluke. Every time the kids caught a fish it was under 18". They were getting frustrated. The daughter, about eight years old, kept asking her dad why all their fish had to be thrown back. I figured the father paid over $100 bucks for their half day excursion. They didn't get to take any fish home.
I spoke to the father who swore he would not do this again. It saddened me to no end. And I have been very upset about it. I imagined as a little boy going fishing with my great-uncle and his son and not bringing a 'bragging' (any size) fish home. I wouldn't be fishing today.

So to all the youngsters, who are going to be able to keep a fluke or two, and to all the party boat captains who hopefully get returned fares, have a great fluke season!

[Life's A Beach]

I am disappointed with the results of the meeting but the time to debate it was before or at the NJMFC meeting on 3/1. I did my best testifying in favor of the longer season but could only talk about 3 of my 10 points supporting it because each speaker was supposed to be limited to 2 minutes.There were sound arguments on each side. When speaking about the potential of exceeding our quota this year, I really don't think it matters much if we chose option 2 or option 5. One thing that matters is what type of season we have, some years the fishing is outstanding and other years it is poor. Unfortunately, what matters the most is the inaccurate data (MRFSS) that is being used to determine how many fish we caught. The data is inaccurate and is a real crap shoot. We have had some years where the fishing was poor coastwide throughout the season and we were told we overfished our quoata and the opposite has occurred as well. At this point we need to push for more accurate data and keep our fingers crossed that we do not exceed our quota.


Paul

I thought the Board stated that the "NJ Volunteer Program" was the "science" that they used, not MRFFFFFSSSSSSSSSS ???

[socks]

This SUCKS! 17.5in.-5 fish. Last year 18in. 8 fish. Whats the 1/2in. and 3 less fish = we went backwards. All my time and money I spent with the RFA and SSFFF to help get the regs angler friendley and some South Jersey Captain looking after his own intersest blows smoke up the powers to be a$$ more "eliquently" gets his way. Hey Captain One Way thank you.

[Falcon]

"Socks"..... Couldn't hit the nail on the head any better.....

[Garone Custom Rods]

This SUCKS! 17.5in.-5 fish. Last year 18in. 8 fish. Whats the 1/2in. and 3 less fish = we went backwards.

I am in total agreement. If my car wasnt totaled right now I would have been there, next year I will be there if I have to walk. ? I just hope the damage done here can be reversed next year. I really cannot believe a for hire captain would vote for an option with less fish and a shorter season than they COULD have had. If I wasn't so pissed about the regulations we have been delt I would laugh about the 1/2" making a difference in catching a few keepers and catching non on most days for the average angler. I can see it making a difference for the guys who only fish surf or the back bays, but look at the rocks on a weekend or the channels in Raritan Bay and tell me that isnt the majority of fishermen. Some days the 1/2" may be the difference between someone bringing fish home or not but most days it will not be the case!

[Kevin Bogan]

It sounds like some guys attempted to compromise as to which options were best. Those from up north appeared to be concerned, rightly so, for the people down south as well as for themselves. Many people fish bays and river down south, and they dont have the same opportunity to catch larger fish. I know it's only a half inch, but 17" would have been good. 5 fish is plenty for a day out. We have to take all anglers into account.

[socks]

It sounds like some guys attempted to compromise as to which options were best. Those from up north appeared to be concerned, rightly so, for the people down south as well as for themselves. Many people fish bays and river down south, and they dont have the same opportunity to catch larger fish. I know it's only a half inch, but 17" would have been good. 5 fish is plenty for a day out. We have to take all anglers into account.
....and your point....is?

[bigjamaica]

I did not keep count but I thought it was pretty close to a 50/50 split for option #2 and option #5. If the RFA took a vote, and it was that close, and they chose the majority position, they would have still disappointed 48% of the membership.
I thought the meeting was poorly attended. I expected to see a packed house, especially by more of the professional fluke captains. However, if the split was the same across the state, we may still have had the same outcome.
I chose #2 because I hate to go down in a bag limit, would rather have a longer season, and I don’t really think ½” is going make that big of a difference in the number of keepers. (I could be wrong about the ½” though)

[Fish The Drop Off]

....and your point....is?


It was the best option for ALL of the NJ anglers. North, South, Central, Back bay, Ocean and Surf anglers

[Garone Custom Rods]

It was the best option for ALL of the NJ anglers. North, South, Central, Back bay, Ocean and Surf anglers
Survey says WRONG!

[socks]

It was the best option for ALL of the NJ anglers. North, South, Central, Back bay, Ocean and Surf anglers
Where do you fish out of Capt.? It was the best option for all of NJ anglers?
Back bay? Ocean? Surf?
So where do you think that the majority of the 17.5-17.99in. fish will make their home for the fluke season ?
1. Backbay
2. Surf
3. Ocean

Only pick one PLEASE.

[Fish The Drop Off]

Where do you fish out of Capt.? It was the best option for all of NJ anglers?
Back bay? Ocean? Surf?
So where do you think that the majority of the 17.5-17.99in. fish will make their home for the fluke season ?
1. Backbay
2. Surf
3. Ocean

Only pick one PLEASE.


I fish out of What I call Central NJ. I can fish out of BI or LEI. I can't just pick one since I fish all of them accept the surf.

[Fish The Drop Off]

Survey says WRONG!


Garone custom rods,
Please remember that site has a following that comes from North NJ. You can see this buy the list of charter boats that are on the site. The poll that was run on this site option 2 and 5 were very close.

[Jay]

It is what it is. Changing the subject, Capt Fran, I know it's ealy but looking forward to the RFA trips this year, keep me posted. Thanks.

[mickrazz]

No one loves to catch fluke more than me. It's been an obsession since I was five years old. In 1955 my great-Uncle Joe and my second cousin Richard Human who lived on Jamaica Bay, L.I. built a wooden 16' boat together in their garage. I learned how to fluke fish from them in that boat. There weren't any size or bag limits. They still just kept decent size fish and just enough to eat. Maybe we ALL should go back to those days and not keep so many fish. No one said we have to catch limits every time we sail. I've seen so many pictures on this site of limit catches it got to be annoying.

I'm happy for all the children who are going fishing on a party boat this year. I witnessed a father, mother, son and daughter on the Sea Tiger this past July catching fluke. Every time the kids caught a fish it was under 18". They were getting frustrated. The daughter, about eight years old, kept asking her dad why all their fish had to be thrown back. I figured the father paid over $100 bucks for their half day excursion. They didn't get to take any fish home.
I spoke to the father who swore he would not do this again. It saddened me to no end. And I have been very upset about it. I imagined as a little boy going fishing with my great-uncle and his son and not bringing a 'bragging' (any size) fish home. I wouldn't be fishing today.

So to all the youngsters, who are going to be able to keep a fluke or two, and to all the party boat captains who hopefully get returned fares, have a great fluke season!
Nice post Cuz. I agree with you. 5 fish at 17.5 is a very nice bag of fillets to take home. I think the headboats will do well with repeat customers that have a much better chance to bring home some meat. Whats with everyone getting their panties in a bunch? Is it REALLY necessary to bring home 8 fluke? Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why 5 fish isn't enough?

[Angler Paul]

I thought the Board stated that the "NJ Volunteer Program" was the "science" that they used, not MRFFFFFSSSSSSSSSS ???__________________

Either the MRFSS or the NJVAS may be used in developing regulations. Usually the MRFSS data is used but for the fluke regualtions in 2011, NJVAS data was used. The NJMFC may use either provided all the options are approved by the ASMFC. I am glad you brought that up because our state biologists are urging fishermen to particiapate in the program. They particularly request that occaisional and less experienced fishermen take the survey so that the data does not become skewed by the more experienced fishermen. Last year I logged in 182 trips, which whas more than anyone in the state. The more data they receive, the more accurate if becomes. This info. is used to help the fishermen of NJ, not hurt them. The NJMFC will usually opt to use the most favorable data for us whether it comes from the MRFSS or or the NJVAS. PLEASE help out by participating in the survey by logging in your trips at the link below.

Paul
2nd VP JCAA
member - BSC, NJOA, NJBBA, SF


http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/marinesurvey.htm

[Jay]

Nice post Cuz. I agree with you. 5 fish at 17.5 is a very nice bag of fillets to take home. I think the headboats will do well with repeat customers that have a much better chance to bring home some meat. Whats with everyone getting their panties in a bunch? Is it REALLY necessary to bring home 8 fluke? Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why 5 fish isn't enough?

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. First of all, how many times does actually anyone limit out anyway?

[dales529]

Been tied up way too long with work (not complaining mind you) but have been following whats going on and especially with this thread.

As differing opinions are as common as fishing reports on here with what option was chosen by the board that is all well and good. There is no way any option picked was going to appease everyone so its no suprise that there is a divide. personally I would have gone with option 2 but again thats the benefit of having "choices" to discuss and vote on.

What is really disturbing is the lack of memory when it comes to how those "choices" were arrived at. Without the tireless work of some that are being bashed here you would never have had a reason to post your thoughts. To even remotely pin blame on any fishing group that represents the best interest of NJ anglers is disgusting to say the least. Do you forget the 99% of all the good that has gone on with Fluke quotas, seasons etc because you dont like the vote??? Last year the Back bay, Surf guys were pissed. This year otheres are pissed. Guess what we all won before hand by even having a choice. The votes were by personal anglers NOT Groups.

The work that goes on ahead of giving you a "choice" is what counts and you are all damn lucky we had a choice. To see comment on where do i send my money now or I am no longer going to support so and so is beyond my comprehension because you obviously dont understand what the real issues are and WHO is fighting for YOU.

Jay: Not to worry, RFA-NJ trips will be posted up soon.

[Garone Custom Rods]

Garone custom rods,
Please remember that site has a following that comes from North NJ. You can see this buy the list of charter boats that are on the site. The poll that was run on this site option 2 and 5 were very close.

Yes site may have a North Jersey Bias but thats because there are WAY more people up north.

[buckfin732]

The reason 5 Fluke is not enough.First off i spend my hard earned money to fluke fish,love to eat it year round and pack my freezer with it.Why are we giving up bag limit to a fishery the is rebuilt and then some:confused: i just dont get it.I dont want to hear how frozen fish sucks cause that is just opnion so you have no argument there.Second when is the last time you have seen a bag limit go except for last year with fluke and that was because we had to donate a butload of money to hire private people to debunk state science.At this point we will have to donate for every species that we fish for Save the Fluke,Flonder,Sea Bass,Porgies,Blackfish,Weakfish and anyhig else that swims in the water what a joke.Someone stated that with the price of a trip you could buy alot of fish in the store:rolleyes: i like to catch my own all while relaxing on the water.That is the complacent attitude that gets the bag limit droped the "Thank God we still have a season for them " please.And if its just about the sport then maybe the party boats should put that on their signs at the boats so all the wally weekenders will know before they board.That will go over like a fart in church :eek: There is no guarantee for fish no matter what size limit there is.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Exactly Dales.....

The way I look at this is we might not have had any Fluke season if organizations like the RFA and SSFFF and individuals like Adam, Fran and Tony who volunteer their time had not been involved.

Lastly, we are all on the same team. Do we have differing opinions on the options, sure...Would I have preffered option 2, yep but that does not does not mean I'm going to through my brother under the bus because he has minor difference of opinion to mine. We need to keep in mind the bigger picture here. Our rights to fish are under constant pressure and common sense tells me we would not be as effective if we tried to protect them individually. We need to do it as part of the team.

There is no "I" in TEAM and Together Everyone Accomplishes More. It's the big stuff we need to stay united on and we can't let the little things divide us.

[NoWorries]

Exactly Dales.....

The way I look at this is we might not have had any Fluke season if organizations like the RFA and SSFFF and individuals like Adam, Fran and Tony who volunteer their time had not been involved.

Lastly, we are all on the same team. Do we have differing opinions on the options, sure...Would I have preffered option 2, yep but that does not does not mean I'm going to through my brother under the bus because he has minor difference of opinion to mine. We need to keep in mind the bigger picture here. Our rights to fish are under constant pressure and common sense tells me we would not be as effective if we tried to protect them individually. We need to do it as part of the team.

There is no "I" in TEAM and Together Everyone Accomplishes More. It's the big stuff we need to stay united on and we can't let the little things divide us. I was at the meeting and while I agree with this . I also believe that poor attendance on the part of local north Jersey fluke fishermen led to this . Next year lets hope for a better turnout !

[Angler Paul]

The poll taken on this site may have showed 37% favoring option 2 compared to 31% favoring option 5 which may seem close when you first look at the numbers. In actuality though, about 61% of those polled favored the 18" size limit with some form of the longer season as compared to only about 33%who favored either the 17 1/2" or 17" option.

[Garone Custom Rods]

The poll taken on this site may have showed 37% favoring option 2 compared to 31% favoring option 5 which may seem close when you first look at the numbers. In actuality though, about 61% of those polled favored the 18" size limit with some form of the longer season as compared to only about 33%who favored either the 17 1/2" or 17" option.

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

[hammer4reel]

The poll taken on this site may have showed 37% favoring option 2 compared to 31% favoring option 5 which may seem close when you first look at the numbers. In actuality though, about 61% of those polled favored the 18" size limit with some form of the longer season as compared to only about 33%who favored either the 17 1/2" or 17" option.


While I voted for Option 2 just because of actually having something to fish for in October with the longer season, and feel the 1/2" decrease was not going to make much of a differnce because were still fishing within the same age class fish.

I think going by a poll on ANY fishing site and trying to bring credibility to the pole is silly.

There are a little over 5000 active members daily here, (which only 249 even voted on the poll) which is about 2 % of the salt water fisherman registered in NJ, , and who knows how many more are not even registered, since if they only fish on head boats they dont have to.

Those are the guys who have no idea fishing sites even exist, yet are the MAINSTAY to the party boat business, just looking to go have a fun day with friends and family, and possibly take home some fish.

I actually know quite a few guys who love to fish , yet only do it from the surf beause they cant afford to fish even on a half day boat.
maybe those guys will also get a few extra fish to take home.

Our board here is made up by guys who really take fishing to another level. there are MANY very good fisherman here, that are going to still catch way more fish per year than they need or their friends and family can consume.
Fishing isnt what we do , its WHO we are.

seems to me there are alot more guys who are going to be happy to get to keep an extra fish or two , that might actually drive them to be the type of fisherman you see post here everyday.

They are entitled to get that chance too


Yet what really makes me laugh is so many of us are saying WTH its only 1/2 and inch , yet if it had been a 1/2" increase in size we would be jumping up and down about it

[mickrazz]

While I voted for Option 2 just because of actually having something to fish for in October with the longer season, and feel the 1/2" decrease was not going to make much of a differnce because were still fishing within the same age class fish.

I think going by a poll on ANY fishing site and trying to bring credibility to the pole is silly.

There are a little over 5000 active members daily here, which is about 2 % of the salt water fisherman registered in NJ , and who knows how many more are not even registered, since if they only fish on head boats they dont have to.

Those are the guys who have no idea fishing sites even exist, yet are the MAINSTAY to the party boat business, just looking to go have a fun day with friends and family, and possibly take home some fish.

I actually know quite a few guys who love to fish , yet only do it from the surf beause they cant afford to fish even on a half day boat.
maybe those guys will also get a few extra fish to take home.

Our board here is made up by guys who really take fishing to another level. there are MANY very good fisherman here, that are going to still catch way more fish per year than they need or their friends and family can consume.
Fishing isnt what we do , its WHO we are.

seems to me there are alot more guys who are going to be happy to get to keep an extra fish or two , that might actually drive them to be the type of fisherman you see post here everyday.

They are entitled to get that chance too


Yet what really makes me laugh is so many of us are saying WTH its only 1/2 and inch , yet if it had been a 1/2" increase in size we would be jumping up and down about it
Now there is a man with some common sense.

[Sea Bear]

It's interesting how many people would rather fluke fish on October 20th in NE winds and 5-6 foot seas than would rather see a young kid on his or her first fishing trip take home a nice, fat, healthy, 17 3/4 inch fluke and be able to take pictures, show his friends, etcetera... and turn them into life long fisher(wo)men.

Seems the fluke "sharpies" out there are putting themselves before the "greater good".

If five keeper fluke isn't enough for you than you are probably fishing for all the wrong reasons anyway. It reminds of what a mate on a belmar party boat had to say about blackfisherman when the bag limit would change from 6 to 4 fish. Those same fisherman who would stop coming down to fish were the same guys who never caught more than 4 keepers anyway! No matter what the limit!

[mickrazz]

The reason 5 Fluke is not enough.First off i spend my hard earned money to fluke fish,love to eat it year round and pack my freezer with it.Why are we giving up bag limit to a fishery the is rebuilt and then some:confused: i just dont get it.I dont want to hear how frozen fish sucks cause that is just opnion so you have no argument there.Second when is the last time you have seen a bag limit go except for last year with fluke and that was because we had to donate a butload of money to hire private people to debunk state science.At this point we will have to donate for every species that we fish for Save the Fluke,Flonder,Sea Bass,Porgies,Blackfish,Weakfish and anyhig else that swims in the water what a joke.Someone stated that with the price of a trip you could buy alot of fish in the store:rolleyes: i like to catch my own all while relaxing on the water.That is the complacent attitude that gets the bag limit droped the "Thank God we still have a season for them " please.And if its just about the sport then maybe the party boats should put that on their signs at the boats so all the wally weekenders will know before they board.That will go over like a fart in church :eek: There is no guarantee for fish no matter what size limit there is.
So lets get this straight. You want to pack your freezer...ok..you tell me if its easier to pack the freezer with 5@ 17.5 or 8@ 18? Before you answer, when is the last time you caught 8@18? I know i haven't caught 8@18...EVER..I'm not the best fluker but I'm certainly not the worst either. I fish in my own boat mostly in the bay.

Do you realize how much money those "wally weekenders" spend on a headboat every spring and summer? Do you think that there are enough regulars to fill those boats every day during the season? I think not. They are the meat and potatoes of the summer fishing industry. No one said fluke fishing is about the sport...they aren't sport fish...they are meat fish.

Re read your last sentence. It just proves my point.

[broken bobber]

Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on

[CaptTB]

Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on
We have another winner. Said many times, if you go to 5, next time you have to take a reduction where are you going to start from??

[Sea Bear]

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on

Yeah wouldn't bother me one bit actually. A couple keeper fluke to eat fresh and not frozen and enjoying a nice relaxing day on the water sounds like a pretty good recipe for "happy" to me!

[broken bobber]

Yeah wouldn't bother me one bit actually. A couple keeper fluke to eat fresh and not frozen and enjoying a nice relaxing day on the water sounds like a pretty good recipe for "happy" to me!

hahaha...now who's putting themselves before the "greater good.....

not many NJ head boats gonna put people on the deck for 2-3 keepers @ 50-60 bux per head

[socks]

Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on
I agree!!!!!

[Sea Bear]

hahaha...now who's putting themselves before the "greater good.....

not many NJ head boats gonna put people on the deck for 2-3 keepers @ 50-60 bux per head

So all the summertime families and tourists looking to enjoy a fun day of fishing are going to say "sorry kids this year the limit is 2-3 keepers and not 8, looks like it's mini-golf instead!" :confused:
Let them take home a fish and maybe next year maybe you see them back. They sure don't need 8 to be happy.

Additionally, how many people walk off head boats with MORE than 2-3 keepers a trip? Sure seems like people have still been paying the 50-60 bucks and leaving with 0-2 keepers anyway. Goes back to what I said about blackfisherman and bag limits.

The "greater good" is to keep the season open during it's peak (summer months) and let people actually take something home with them.

[hammer4reel]

Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on
.. I understand the way fishery management has been that is DEFINETLY a concern , but since most of the surveys show the majority of fluke in our waters are 16-16 1/2" I dont think (AND HOPE ) that doesnt happen. I think if anything we did catch alot more keepers when It was at 16" just becasue that was the size most available on hand.

Hopefully them setting the bag limit of 5 at 17 1/2" eliminates the chance of over fishing.

Plus If done correctly since its based on Tonage and not Number of fish caught . some smaller fish should show less total weight caught per angler ??

New yorks regs are based on Montauk ETC where each fish caught is like catching 3 fish here at 18" weight wise .

There limit reflects that , catch 3, 4 pounders that 12 pounds of fish , same as us keeping 6 , 2 pounders etc


.Just them basing it on weight and not fish caught puts us behind the 8 ball as all those bigger fish take away from the total much faster

[mickrazz]

I see your point Tom, its just my opinion that they are going to do whatever they damn well please anyway. All I'm trying to point out is that 98% of the folks on here that fluke fish don't limit out anyway. Guys like you and a few other very good flukers can catch 17.5" fish most of the day. All the rest of us are going to be lucky to limit on the 17.5's, and I'm one of those guys.

[Sharkyispy]

Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on

Bobber, you're striking the right chords here with this. It is NOT about catching more fish, I was lucky enough to have a great season this year and actually did limit out several times, I am an addict as well to fishing and as others have put it, fishing is and has been since childhood my retreat and emotional therapy that I enjoy doing more than anything else...not the point. I also hope this size limit allows for the beginner fisherman, the dad and his kids to catch more fish and be repeat customers for the benefit of the boats and the fishing business. But, It's about what WILL happen next year when those in control can and will say we over fished our quotas this year, depleted the stock and now we need to course correct to fix that with I can only imagine what the numbers WILL be... 2-3 at 18"- let's go the NY route and up it to let's say 19" and 3? For those of you working to support our rights, I do thank you sincerely. I just wish I could see that that support was paying dividends for the longer term.

[socks]

We have another winner. Said many times, if you go to 5, next time you have to take a reduction where are you going to start from??
Capt.TB you make the most sense on this issue and many others. I wish the Captains from down South "Tuckerton to Cape May Pt." would look at the big picture like you do on these fluke regs. Thank you for all your work on this and many issues concerning the WHOLE state of recreational anglers.

[broken bobber]

So all the summertime families and tourists looking to enjoy a fun day of fishing are going to say "sorry kids this year the limit is 2-3 keepers and not 8, looks like it's mini-golf instead!" :confused:
Let them take home a fish and maybe next year you'll see them back.

Additionally, how many people walk off head boats with MORE than 2-3 keepers a trip? Sure seems like people have still been paying the 50-60 bucks and leaving with 0-2 keepers anyway. Goes back to what I said about blackfisherman and bag limits.

AGAIN my point also..... so this year they MAY take home some fish with the new limits...... but what happens when all this backfires and the fisheries people say ok we gotta go back to 18 but sorry only 2-3 fish can be kept... there is to much potential in this ruling to hurt the industry in the long run, which is why i made an earlier point of why not leave all as is and put in the 2 slot fish at 17-17.5..... the argument was because the Co's would have to do more work ....really ?????

[Sea Bear]

AGAIN my point also..... so this year they MAY take home some fish with the new limits...... but what happens when all this backfires and the fisheries people say ok we gotta go back to 18 but sorry only 2-3 fish can be kept... there is to much potential in this ruling to hurt the industry in the long run, which is why i made an earlier point of why not leave all as is and put in the 2 slot fish at 17-17.5..... the argument was because the Co's would have to do more work ....really ?????

You seem certain that a slot fish system would have less potential to hurt the long term fishery than what was chosen...?
It seems a pretty big leap to already have a "doomsday" attitude just as a belief. There's no telling what the "powers that be" will feed us after this season, no matter what set of regulations were chosen, no matter how good or bad the season was, no matter how many fish were kept or not kept. I don't see the validity in trying to be "Ms. Cleo" about it.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Tommy - Believe me when I say I respect your opinon on this. You are probably the most dedicated and passionate Fluker I've ever met. Also remember, I too supported option 2 for the same reasons you, Tony and many others on this site supported it.

My point in my earlier post is even though I have a difference of opinion with others who voted differently, I don't think that should divide us or cause us to pull our support of those people or organizations. They carry the tourch on much bigger things and deserve our support and appreciation and I consider them part of the team.

Next time I see Adam and Fran I will shake their hands, thank them for their service and then respectfully try and convince them of the err in their southern ways on this particular issue. :D

How's that for politically correctness ;)


Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on

[Jigsmith]

Mick and Gerry.... i guess its me... but try and understand my thinking on this.....

Its NOT, oh 5 fish is enough for anyone why complain about not keeping 8....

Its about what this could lead to when the People in charge of decisions claim we have now over fished this season so next year we HAVE TO GO TO 3 or possibly 2 fish in 2013/2014.....yea yea it sounds crazy right..... tell the guys in NY that after looking at the past practices.....

Honestly... would you be happy keeping only 2 or 3 fish at 17.5 inches this year.... come on

This says it all for me. I truly feel we took a dangerous step backwards.

[Falcon]

2 slot fish at 17-17.5....And maybe a bonus tag for other same size fish........ Been telling the CO at the dock for years...And I see them offen " In a good way" :D Hopefully this dosen't kill us this or next year....

I wish everyone a great season....

[River Rat]

Regs suck azzz....getting my eye patch ready.:mad:

[buckfin732]

Mick i catch more then my share of limits a year.My point is why are we giving up 3 fish to a stock that is rebuilt.The more we give up the easier it is to take.Since so many people thimk its easyer to catch at 17.5 you dont think the powers that be will say we overfished this year.Then what for next year sorry you over fished the stock so now we are back at 18 and still at 5 fish or worst at 3.You have alot of faith in the powers that be,when have the Rec. guys not been screwed .

[captadamnj]

My point is why are we giving up 3 fish to a stock that is rebuilt

That is a fair question. But first understand that to the vast majority of fishermen as evidenced by many of the posts in this thread, very few people are giving up anything. Again, I respect those that have been successful, but you (generally speaking) are in the vast minority of anglers. And if you were limiting out every time at 8 fish at 18", I hope that the 17.5" size limit allows you to capture your limit more quickly without traveling as far and allow you to make an extra couple of trips. That is a win for everyone and you still get your "meat".

I can give you the long winded technical reason for 8 vs. 5 fish bag limits that many would say isn't based in a ton of common sense to most anglers or I can give you the more practicable answer. Practically speaking - because we still have a long way to go in the work of SSFFF, RFA and all the groups working to improve science for Summer Flounder and other species. It becomes a mathematical exercise quite frankly. The mathematical exercise in reducing the size 1/2" and gaining five days of season required capping the limit at 5 fish. I'm not saying I agree with the system any more than the next guy, and am working hard to try to improve the systems to provide results for the better of as many as possible. We saw the bag limit go up from 6 to 8 not long ago, if everyone keeps working together to improve the science and the processes we can strive to get the bag up again from 5.

Here's another point to consider NO MATTER WHAT THE REGS. We may UNDERFISH our harvest target this year, and still have to be MORE RESTRICTIVE NEXT YEAR if the quota goes down. Another reason to continue to support the work that has been effective in supporting quota increases.

I know that many believe that the management process is some "black hole" with puppeteers working behind the scenes. By and large, our fisheries are managed by a lot of every day folks. Spend enough time and it becomes comprehendable. I don't know much about rocket science so I don't know if I would call it that, but just because it isn't understood by an individual(s) doesn't mean it's incomprehensible to all. There remains, comparatively speaking, so many unknowns in fisheries management. There are problems with becoming slaves to the process no doubt. But there are a lot of creative ideas bounced around aimed at improving the science and the process and we all need to continue to do our part to support those efforts.

Finally, since it was brought up in this thread, my decision to support option 5 had nothing to do with potential effect on my business considering fluke fishing accounts for about 5% of my trips. Such has been my business pretty much from day one, irregardless of what the regs have been over the past decade. It was based primarily on the belief based upon personal contact that many would benefit from the lower size. As for constraining the harvest to the target, I put forth the researchable reasons for supporting this path, but at the end of the day, MRFSS is still MRFSS (even behind the MRIP name), a recreational ESTIMATE that is simply incapable in its current form to support the management processes as they are currently implemented. What it spits out next year is truly anyone's guess, including mine. I am hoping for the best just like the rest of you.

[Chris G]

Thanks Adam.

[buckfin732]

Capt Adam you still didnt answer the question.Why are we giving up 3 fish to a stock that even with the backwards thinking and flawed science says that its rebuilt.Most put money into SSSF and the RFA and came together and won some back for the little guy ie 6 fish to 8 fish then just hand it back like its no big deal.Makes you feel like we just pissed that money away giving up gains:confused:

[Pete]

I was at the meeting and while I agree with this . I also believe that poor attendance on the part of local north Jersey fluke fishermen led to this . Next year lets hope for a better turnout !

Ha! While I wholeheartedly agree with you; a better turnout, indeed, could have made a difference. Remember, the northern guys got railroaded, two or three years ago when the season was front loaded in May and shut down very early September. Which definitely benefitted the southern part of the state. The northern guys lost out on some prime time especially on ambrose. Anyhow, when that happened, that very same battle cry you propose went out. How quick we forget.

Not trying to make this a North vs. South battle. But, you'd have to admit either side would take any advantage they could get, and run like a thief. Problem is, it ain't N vs. S. It's us against them. Unite to win. Or stay divided and in the long run we all lose.

17 1/2 or 18", 5 or 8. In reality that argument can no longer be made. The regs are set, and like it or not we all have to live with them. We need to figure a way to move forward in unison, instead of the splintered individuals we are fast becoming.

Divide and conquer is the oldest tactic in the book to achieve victory vs. an opponent. The folks at MRFSS are laughing seeing as they have us further divided than ever. Like all sharks they can smell the blood.

WE had better get OUR collective spit together.

[captadamnj]

I will try this another way.

Decrease in size limit = +x% harvest
Increase in size limit = -x% harvest

Decrease in bag limit = -y% harvest
Increase in bag limit = +y% harvest

Decrease in season length = -z% harvest
Increase in season length = +z% harvest

Add together x, y and z based on how to increase/decrease size, bag and season and it needs to cumulatively match the allowed increase/decrease in harvest in a given year.

Our 2011 harvest was less than our 2012 quota (forget about whether we overfished or underfished our 2011 harvest target or whether the 2012 quota went up or down from 2011 because neither matter, it only matters how last year's landings compares to this year's quota) allowing us to increase harvest by +38%. (If you must know we were over 50% below our target in 2011 but because the 2012 quota decreased from 2011, we are only allowed a 38% liberalization.)

The drop in size (+x%) combined with lengthened season (+z%) required a decrease in bag (-y%) to make x + y + z = +38%.

There are other factors but I am trying to keep it as simple as possible.

There are many, many, many combinations of x, y and z every year. The Bureau of Marine Fisheries staff works very hard to come up with a bunch of approved options, then a Committee of the Marine Fisheries Council meets with advisors to whittle down the options developed by staff to be presented to the full council at the public meeting every year.

[Life's A Beach]

It's all BS

The KEY is how they're getting the landing numbers. I fished on boats with over 70 fisherman where there were NO keepers, another trip where 50 fisherman caught 3 keepers and BOTH trips there was a survey person on board taking information. I also was called twice during the season and they NEVER asked how many keepers I caught on my last trip. ??????

Truth be told, I had a very successful fluke season, catching a limit most times (on private boat). We also had trips were WE caught an uncountable amount of short fish (not 17"+); SHORTS! (and every damn one of them bolted back to the bottom no worse for wear - mortality rate my azz) And this was in "big fish" areas. I speak with a lot of boats, anglers etc and 2011 was a banner year, from Manasquan River to Ambrose. A LOT of limits and a lot of big fish. But the season ENDED with Irene as it never shaped back up for a September/October fluke bite.

In my lifetime WE have lost whiting, weakfish is a shadow of a memory and What's a Flounder??? While striped bass has made a miraculous recovery and cod a nice showing the past couple years, it's been more lost than gained.

We GAVE up Fall flounder and will never get THAT back. With a 2 fish limit, we've essentially given up Spring flounder; DONE! Now they've dropped us by almost 50% on fluke...........?????????

What bothers me most is this. They've taken all the "best science available" and coupled that with input from other agencies (even taking input from the Fish Police) and came to the meeting prepared to give us Option #2. (they had it highlighted up on the screen) Then an articulate statement from someone during public input swayed enough Board members to change their minds???????????

Rambling but that's normal ....... one question in closing????

What is the Official Position of RFA on this subject? An answer with an explanation will decide my personal opinion the next time I write a check or decide if an njfishing.com trip that I put together makes a donation. The greater good that an organization does should represent it's members and be for the betterment of the entire fishery.

[captadamnj]

Understand where the "preferred option" came from. That was the "preferred option" put forth by the members of a sub-committee of the full council. The membership of that committee represents less than half the number of persons on the full council. So to say that was the "preferred option" by the council is not true. It was the preferred option of the committee, not the council.

RFA-NJ/SSFFF did not comment at the meeting on a preferred option as an organization. Individuals from said organizations spoke solely on their own, personal positions.

[Life's A Beach]

The poll taken on this site may have showed 37% favoring option 2 compared to 31% favoring option 5 which may seem close when you first look at the numbers. In actuality though, about 61% of those polled favored the 18" size limit with some form of the longer season as compared to only about 33%who favored either the 17 1/2" or 17" option.


Paul

I had the FULL graph printed out and maybe I should have given ALL the vote numbers to the Board?? Nice monday morning qb! You could have printed out the same info that I did and presented it? Don't shoot the messenger.

Here's the REAL bottom line. Over 5,000 registered and over 6,000 views and UNDER 250 votes??? NOW if I had gone to that meeting with 65% of 5,000 people saying they wanted SOME length of a season with an 18" X 8 Fish Limit.......Then it would have been worth speaking. With 2% of registered members voting, I was actually embarrassed reporting the apathy of such a large group.

[Life's A Beach]

RFA-NJ/SSFFF did not comment at the meeting on a preferred option as an organization. Individuals from said organizations spoke solely on their own, personal positions.


Understood Adam

Does RFA have a position on the subject?

Does SSFFF?

[captadamnj]

Mike, I think it's quite clear that this was an issue of huge personal preference. No public comment was given from either group which reflects those divisions, I'm not really sure what else I can offer on the matter. No public comment was no public comment. Sorry I can't paint this one black or white for you. I can tell you SSFFF and RFA-NJ, as has already been posted, is more about fighting for the opportunity to liberalize period. This is a very difficult state to manage fisheries on a statewide basis due to the diversity of fishing patterns from one end to the other and more often than not, as the saying goes, what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander when it comes to regulations. A huge challenge for all, especially when we need to unify to fight for quota only to be divided when fighting for individual regs. We have to get past the individual battles and get on with the war.

[buckfin732]

So we are not overfishing the stock and we were under quota and we still lost fish :confused: .Typical goverment math plain and simple 2+2 = lose three fish.Shouldnt this be what the RFA is fighting against not learning how to teach the math.Whatever it is what it is no changing it this year or ever as past fisherys have proven.Thank you Capt Adam for you answers and explaining it to me.One more thing you could maybe answer for me is why did the RFA not have a offical position on this.

[Jigsmith]

What I want to know is why the quota was lowered? The fishery is the healthiest I've seen.

[captadamnj]

Buckfin, see above. Looks like we were both typing.

What I want to know is why the quota was lowered? The fishery is the healthiest I've seen.

The science needs improvement, plain and simple. The work of SSFFF, et. al. goes on.

[buckfin732]

How do we get past the individual battles if one of the biggst groups for the fisherman cant even decide what they are for.Shouldnt the RFA lead by example.

[DMac]

What's done is done. It is in the books and we have to live with it for this season and pray to god it doesn't haunt us next year. Personally I voted for option 4 later start still before memorial day when majority of business picks up for party/charter boats, and went latest in year to bridge gap while other seasons were closed. I voted for option 4 because it was shorter than option two and had similar fall fishing options. I figured giving up few days in may would maybe help us not only keep from going over quota, and in return maybe let us have very similar season again the next year. Now we just need to wait and see the results on quota from this season, and hopefully be able to work to get it back next season. I think I am going to count how many 17.5-18 inch fish I catch and post only that in my fluke reports.

I don't understand the decision, and won't ask why because I do not feel like you will get a straight answer. Kind of smells like its to political if you catch my drift.

[Dave A]

Understood Adam

Does RFA have a position on the subject?

Does SSFFF?

Mike, for the record SSFFF has Never taken a position. We are not and never have been affiliated with Any other group. Our mission has always been to provide the best science available so that we always have a fluke season up and down the coast. On a personal level you know that I favored option 2.

[shrimpman steve]

I guess I am the unpopular one, I leaned towards #5 in the pole.

My thoughts were simple and not for me, but for my kids. I took them a few times last year and it was very sad watching them throw back fish and say "why can't we keep that one?". Personally I thought 5 fish was enough for me. As far as never getting them back, I don't know if I agree. I know it will be tough, but look at NY. They got a reduced size last year and a fish back.

Lets just hope there are no nor'easters to screw up October.

[Kevin Bogan]

Would anyone want to guess the yield on an 18" fish filleted? My guess, 1lb 4oz. I filleted thousands of them, never weighed one, but assume I'm close.
5X 1 lb 4 oz = 6lbs. 4 oz + or- depending on the true yield at approx $12.00 lb. retail market value = nearly $70 worth of fillets, FRESH!!! Sounds good to me. Now, get a bag of 50 hardshell clams, 2 bags of Tater tots, some chips and dip on sale, an 18 pack Miller light for $13.99 and you could throw the party of your life!;) Sounds good to me. :)
Many here would go to Great Adventure, spend $4,5 per ride, a movie for $12, go to a bar and leave a big tip, we will be fine with the new regs.
I like the idea that the people down south who fish the bays/rivers get a better shot at a few keepers, the extended season helps everyone, and the customers that fish party boats get a better chance at keepers.:)
IN SEARCH OF THE FLAT ONES:cool:

[CaptTB]

Understood Adam

Does RFA have a position on the subject?

Does SSFFF?
Mike, I took it for granted that from all your involvement with SSFFF over the years you would know we have never taken a position on an individual states' regulations. (attending dinners, fundraisers etc.)

Here is my post from another thread on the fluke option chosen just a few clicks down from this one....

While I understand people's frustrations not just this time but every time regs are chosen let me just clarify something:

SSFFF has said since day one that we are NOT about an individual state's regulations. SSFFF did NOT take ANY position on fluke regulations for NJ or any other state. SSFFF has NEVER given ANY official or unofficial position on ANY specific regulations for ANY state, NJ included.

Our goal was to make sure there ARE regulations from which to choose in the first place as opposed to simply being shut down or given next to nothing in the way of being allowed to fish for EVERYONE that fishes for Fluke, not just in NJ.

While those of us that started the organization may have come from NJ we have always focused our efforts on the science and politics of FLUKE, period. Not NJ fluke, not NY fluke, etc.

I know no one was knocking SSFFF or anything like that, I just wanted to clarify that there were not two groups in opposition because SSFFF did NOT advocate for ANY option for Fluke regs....we never have and never will.

While individuals who may be part of any number of organizations, including SSFFF, may have spoken in favor of one option or another I can assure you that no one was speaking for SSFFF.

As I and others from SSFFF have said before: "No point in arguing over how you like your eggs cooked if the government is going to take away all of your eggs. Our job is to make sure we have enough eggs to actually debate the best way to cook them!"

[buckfin732]

The commerical guys put their money with lobbist who produce for the money they are given.We give our money to the "We dont have a Offical opnion"RFA that is just glad that we have a season.Maybe we should take a lesson from the commerical guys and back a lobbist instead of pissing our money away IMO.

[Ryan W]

The commerical guys put their money with lobbist who produce for the money they are given.We give our money to the "We dont have a Offical opnion"RFA that is just glad that we have a season.Maybe we should take a lesson from the commerical guys and back a lobbist instead of pissing our money away IMO.

Please tell me how much you donated so that when you decide to stop "pissing your money away" I can write a check out of my own pocket to pick up the slack.


You're telling me the RFA doesn't produce? They're completely not "just glad we have a season", they want the most quota/poundage for us RECREATIONAL anglers to have. The allowable poundage went UP this year and went UP last year too thanks to RFA/SSFFF. As you can tell from this thread, people who support the RFA are divided among options. Dmac likes one option, myself Adam and others like another option, and Tony,Howard and others like yet another choice. They all have valid reasons for their opinions and certainly should voice them along with their reasons. Why on earth should the RFA come up with an "official position" that represents what only a fraction of their members think? No matter what option they support only a fraction of their membership agrees with it. If you like a particular option so strongly, go to the meeting and speak. That's called "Democracy" where the committee listens to people comment and picks an option based on that. The committee didn't make some backroom deal, they listened to who showed up and made their choice based on that. That's what democracy is all about.

[buckfin732]

Well get ready to dust off the check book then Ryan because i donate $200.00 a year and last year my business donated $200.00 also.Trust me i know alot of people that feel the way i do.I own a small business and can not get away much but i trust that a group like the RFA would have fishermans best intrest at heart.But they proved that is not true when you give bag limit away knowing that you will never get it back.If it is so much easier to catch 17.5 fish like the south jersey guys are saying then landings are going to be way up and what does that lead to overfishing.But here is the rub,even the flawed science guys are saying the stock is rebuilt so why on earth did we have to lose fish even at 17.5 we could of kept it at 8 fish bag .That is what the RFA should be fighting for. You tell me when is the last time that you seen a bag limit go back up with out us spending a shitload of money for Private people to come in and evaluate the stock.What happens when the people that fish get tired of spending money for little return and stop donating.Then what no money to debunk the bad science and we are even worst off then we are now with losing 3 fish.:confused:

[DMac]

Bottom line I was in favor of any option that kept the size at 18 and 8 fish.
I would have been fine not even changing it from previous year in hope storm like Irene wouldn't come shut it down. The majority of the vote even though it was fraction of entire member list felt that way too. I know the desire to possibly keep a few fish from 17.5-18, but I don't see it honestly making that much of a difference, but I will track it and admit if I was wrong. Considering releasing them all for others to take home.

[Ryan W]

Well get ready to dust off the check book then Ryan because i donate $200.00 a year and last year my business donated $200.00 also.Trust me i know alot of people that feel the way i do.I own a small business and can not get away much but i trust that a group like the RFA would have fishermans best intrest at heart.But they proved that is not true when you give bag limit away knowing that you will never get it back.If it is so much easier to catch 17.5 fish like the south jersey guys are saying then landings are going to be way up and what does that lead to overfishing.But here is the rub,even the flawed science guys are saying the stock is rebuilt so why on earth did we have to lose fish even at 17.5 we could of kept it at 8 fish bag .That is what the RFA should be fighting for. You tell me when is the last time that you seen a bag limit go back up with out us spending a shitload of money for Private people to come in and evaluate the stock.What happens when the people that fish get tired of spending money for little return and stop donating.Then what no money to debunk the bad science and we are even worst off then we are now with losing 3 fish.:confused:

I'll dust off my checkbook, it's a better use of my time than trying to reason with you.

[Detour66]

I like the new rules.... just fine with me. 5 @ 17.5 is plenty of fish and who's not to say you will not catch bigger fish! 3 guys on the boat = 15 fish if all limit out... that's more than enough fish to fillet and eat! I threw back so many 17.5's the last few years it wasn't even funny. Finally some good news IMHO!

[JOHN D]

lets not forget that 17.5 is the MINIMUM size limit, if you guys dont like the reduced size (like myself) you dont have to keep them just take the bigger ones and throw the 17.5 inchers back.

[Pete]

This is and will be my final comment regarding this matter. If you didn't show , oh well. If you showed and your comments or desires didn't work out, oh well. That's life!

WE had better move forward and come up with a solution.

This battle has ended. Lick our wounds and move forward.

Pointing at him, me, or anyone else is now pointless.

Let's hope the entire fishing community unites.

[Detour66]

There has been a some of talk that we will go over our allotted catch for the season which is possible and then next year they will cut us down to 3 or 2 fish per man. All I know is monday - friday except for holidays the bay and ocean are dead! Very few boats fishing. It's the weekends when the masses come out to fish. And if we have bad weather on the weekend the waters have hardly been fished for a week. It almost seems to me that all there "scientific information" is taken on Saturday and Sunday. Because if it was taken during the week. THEY WOULD OWE US BIGTIME! This is what we have to look into.. THINK ABOUT IT! Something doesnt seem right to me? K