Is it just me...?

[captbogan]

Is it just me or does this "research quota" seem like another big fat bribe being forced down the working mans throat.

$3000 for 3 more weeks of fluke fishing? Just wait till the state or the feds figure out that they can get away with this!

I don't blame the guys that bought into --they're trying to stay afloat-- but it is bad news.

This is the equiv of what the feds are calling "Catch Shares." Simply put: the guy with the most money will keep fishing while the ones who are just paying ther bills will get washed away with the tide.

[sportfishingusa]

Is it just me or does this "research quota" seem like another big fat bribe being forced down the working mans throat.

$3000 for 3 more weeks of fluke fishing? Just wait till the state or the feds figure out that they can get away with this!

I don't blame the guys that bought into --they're trying to stay afloat-- but it is bad news.

This is the equiv of what the feds are calling "Catch Shares." Simply put: the guy with the most money will keep fishing while the ones who are just paying ther bills will get washed away with the tide.


I always wondered if this RSA crapola was all a test on the goverment and affiliatede bodies, to see who was willing to pay to continue to fish. I mean the best fluke fishing "could" be yet to come, and to see all these boats pay the money for a little more time seems like a "trap" to me.

I really hope we are all wrong on this and it is just what it is and the catch shares are not even a thought in the future.

[captbogan]

I always wondered if this RSA crapola was all a test on the goverment and affiliatede bodies, to see who was willing to pay to continue to fish. I mean the best fluke fishing "could" be yet to come, and to see all these boats pay the money for a little more time seems like a "trap" to me.

I really hope we are all wrong on this and it is just what it is and the catch shares are not even a thought in the future.


I'm glad you see it too.

[JonDevin]

It's just another tax.

[snapperbluefish101]

Overall I don't like the idea of the Permit, but if the 3 weeks of fishing produce big fish and then intern attract big crowds, the capt's will take advantage of the opportunity for the following years, but as said it can be a trap to pay extra money, especiallly when you can be fishing for a different species without paying $3000 and still hopefully making good money.

[Irish Jigger]

Is it 3 weeks or they fish until they catch the amount of pounds they purchased ?

[vinntastic]

IT JUST GOES TOGETHER WITH PAYING FOR A SALTWATER LICENSE AND RAISING THE PRICE EACH YEAR,AND WHO KNOWS WE WILL BE PAYING FOR A FLUKE STAMP:eek: A STRIPER STAMP AND SO ON DOWN THE LINE..LAND OF THE FREE:rolleyes:I CANT TELL...I WILL STILL FISH CAUSE ITS WHAT I LIKE TO DO,NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER EVERYTHING IS MONEY,MONEY:eek:

[shrimpman steve]

expiration on the permit is 1/1/11, or until you hit your poundage. I think.

[Detour66]

It's a shakedown! It's total BS. I don't blame the P boat's that pay the $$ for it cause they are trying to make a living. If $$ can extend a fluke season why not give the average rec fisherman a chance ..let say a research stamp for $30 for 3 weeks?? What's fair for one should be fair for all...

To me the fluke season is over....time to move on...its as simple as that!

Now its time to zero in on albies...bonita...bass and bottom fish!

And thats what i am going to do!:cool:

[RussH]

ORIGINAL POST BY CAPTAINTB

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorgyBoy
I can understand this RSA permit on a business only view. However it highlights the fact that money talks and make no mistake this isn't about science its about cash.
Wrong. 100% wrong. 1000% wrong. The whole point was to get science paid for with private money where gov't money did not exist. Since the average joe is not gonna just fork over thousands of dollars to pay for research, the fish that were set aside ahead of time (before any allocation was done or the fishing year began) are auctioned off. This is how the money is raised to pay for the research. The boats that purchase the fish are taking the risk that when the time comes to use those pounds of fish that they paid for that the "price is right". For a commercial boat that means the price per pound at market for a for-hire boat that means will enough people come to offset the inititial purchase price.

This isn't just some special permit that let's you fish indefinitely.

Quote:
Again the little guy is left outside in cold unless he fishes on the party boat with the permit. I love my fluke fishing dearly but I don't agree with the permit system at all! If the season is closed, it is closed for all. Yes, I do want the party boats to say in business and make money. I feel it is a dieing trade. If the fuel costs don't kill you the regs and the tree huggers will! Anyway if the last few weeks is any indicator on how the rest of the extended season will go people are going to loose interest anyway. Once the kids are in school and football starts you will see most of the day trippers fade from the scene. Yes that will be a good thing for the regulars this will mean more fishing space and less tangles. Can a party boat turn a good profit on a mid-week day off season fluking with just 10-15 regulars? I guess so. Will it be a big draw, maybe for a week or two and I really hope I am wrong. But closed means closed, not maybe!

Icepants

Apparently you do not understand how this works or how our regs work.

Some magical permit was not simply purchased to allow fishing to continue. No such permit exists and no money exchanged hands to get the scientific exemption permit. Neither the state nor the federal government gets one red cent of RSA money. It is used to pay for the research projects.

Now on to this "closed is closed" stuff. The season length is based on our, amongst other things, the amount of quota we have to fish on vs. the avg. catch per day. (much more complicated than that but you get the idea)

The fish being caught by the boats that paid for RSA quota are not getting something special or something extra. They too are fishing on quota. Scientifically allowed quota. Fish that were always meant to be harvested. Difference is these fish (up to 3% of the total quota) were set aside to help fund and/or be used in research projects that would not have otherwise been done had they not been paid for by boats buying the quota.

It is amusing to say the least that all the self righteous come out of the woodwork now that recreational anglers can finally harvest the quota they have been donating to research for over a decade. But, when it was only commercial boats harvesting OUR QUOTA TOO no one said a word for the last ten or 15 years.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this explanation. Aren't you guys related? Because those are far opposite views.

[CaptTB]

I am so bored with the conspiracy theories.

Yes, you are right folks this is just another tax:rolleyes::rolleyes:

First off ladies and gents, there is no magic permit you buy or spend 3000 dollars on. The permit has nothing to do with the RSA program and is a scientific exemption permit that is issued for any vessel, commercial, recreational or research that is harvesting fish for any purpose at any time outside of the normal regs. They existed before the RSA program and they will exist after the RSA program.

The permits are FREE.

Let me repeat this for all who STILL do not understand this program. The permits have NOTHING TO DO with the RSA program other than the state must issue it.....FOR FREE....so you can harvest the RSA quota or do ANY OTHER TYPE OF RESEACRH OR HARVEST FOR A MILLION DIFFERENT REASONS.

What is PAID FOR is the small percentage of quota that is set aside each year to fund research. No one was forced to buy it, no one ever bitched when only the commercial sector paid the money that funded the research and in return got to harvest those pounds and try to make back their money plus perhaps even a profit (god forbid)

No one bitched when the percentage of recreational quota was being harvested by only commercials. This specific program has been going on since 2002 folks, thanks for joining us.

Now that we can actually have recreational fishermen harvest the very same quota they donated to fund research projects, people are all up in arms.

Now, to my cousin Bobby.

Bob, remember that slot limit study we did on several different boats throughout the state including yours back in 2006? The one where you fished a bunch of trips at different regs?

Where do you think the money came from to fund the VERY FIRST RECREATIONAL RESEARCH PROJECT???

You guessed it, the RSA program.

Wanna know where the money came from to fund two of the most recent Fluke studies that are helping contribute to the work SSFFF is doing?

You guessed it, the RSA program.

But yes, it is a conspiracy.

If you folks want, show up at the damn MAFMC meeting that has happened every year for the past 9 years and tell them you would rather have the extra 2 days or so of fishing that quota would give you if added back into the total state quota. Tell them the MILLIONS of dollars of research that has been done over the past decade was not worth your two or three frigging days of fishing. We are talking no more than 3% of the total quota (that's rec and commercial combined)

As far as Fluke goes that would mean 3% is taken off the top. If you want it back, then recs get 40% of that 3%, of which NJ gets 39% of that 40%.

That's it ladies and gents. And, this is not some"test" by the gov't to see what they can charge for since
THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT GET ONE FRIGGIN' DIME OF THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

So those "bastards" that are charging you are the ****ing scientists!!!!!!! You know, the universities and research facilities that are doing the science we have all been screaming for. They get 100% of the funds raised from this program

[RussH]

What I noticed, Tony, is that the people getting overly excited are the Fishermen who own boats and don't go on PB's. And the PB owners who didn't pay to participate in RSA. Those excluded are the ones most offended.

As a 50/50 charter/pb fishermen, and having double checked what you told us. I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to fish more, AND knowing that my money is going towards not only my favorite boats, but towards a better understanding of how we can manage our fisheries and still have our favorite hobbies. It's pretty cool in my opinion. And it's 3 weeks of one type of fish. Not that huge a deal I think.

[DaveM252]

It's All About Money!

[captbogan]

.... If $$ can extend a fluke season why not give the average rec fisherman a chance ..let say a research stamp for $30 for 3 weeks??


This is what I am talking about. "It's a trap", as someone else put it.

Willing to put up $30 for 3 extra weeks? Wait till the bean counters get wind of that. Holy crap! a new way to shake down the public!

Tony, the govt isn't getting any $ now but once they see we are willing to pay to fish....! Again, I do not blame any who paid --but this isn't good. I've been going to fisheries meeting since the 80s. I remember the first time someone suggested a 17 inch fluke and the public went nuts --ready to tear the building down. But just 10 years later we stuck with an 18" fluke --and we are lucky compared to NY.

[DaveM252]

It's all about money!

[JonDevin]

First, with all due respect CaptTB (and I have an immense amount of respect for you), I believe many of your statements are sarcastic in that post at the top of page 2. However, it's difficult to figure out which ones are the sarcasm and which ones are the facts. It would be helpful to leave out the sarcasm. I'm not trying to be difficult or critical. I just find your post to be confusing...and I truly want to understand.

With that said, I find the whole program to be a slippery slope. If I understand correctly, there is some amount of poundage available to catch to help generate research dollars by some non-government agency. That non-government agency chose to incentivize people to "buy" that poundage by making it available during a period of time where they would not normally be allowed to keep fluke. In order for this to work, the government had to make the poundage available to the program and make available special permits to those same people who "bought" the poundage.

If I understand correctly, then I really do think that's a slippery slope. Albeit for what we all believe is the correct cause, THIS TIME. I wonder if the program didn't exist, would there be a larger poundage allocated to all? If not, then what happened is that the total available catch is reduced to allow for this program. That's a tax in my book, no matter how you feel about how those funds are used.

Then again, I find this all very confusing and may be completely wrong in what I just wrote. :confused:

[RussH]

From what tony said it would equate to one extra day fishing maybe two? If the RSA didn't exist.

[JonDevin]

What I noticed, Tony, is that the people getting overly excited are the Fishermen who own boats and don't go on PB's. And the PB owners who didn't pay to participate in RSA. Those excluded are the ones most offended.
Not sure how you came to this conclusion. I, for one, spend mucho dollars on PB's and Charters, but do have my own Kayak.

As a 50/50 charter/pb fishermen, and having double checked what you told us. I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to fish more, AND knowing that my money is going towards not only my favorite boats, but towards a better understanding of how we can manage our fisheries and still have our favorite hobbies. It's pretty cool in my opinion. And it's 3 weeks of one type of fish. Not that huge a deal I think.
There seems to be a connection between the program and the government, albeit a subtle one. I do believe this is just another tax. It's a tax that directly funds research that helps us. With that said, I believe it's our own responsibility to take care of our own... and that means supporting various agencies and organizations that do the research we need and fight for our cause. But I don't believe it should be a tax that doesn't allow all boats to compete equally. Sure they have equal rights to compete for the RSA quota, but they all can't have the quota. That means some fish and some don't. It all just seems very Machiavellian to me.

[bunker dunker]

i love the "goverment won't get a dime" thing.they get a cut on everything and
unless you are gonna follow that money yourself{and please don't show me on
paper because print don't mean sh*t.its just another tax.

[CaptTB]

First, with all due respect CaptTB (and I have an immense amount of respect for you), I believe many of your statements are sarcastic in that post at the top of page 2. However, it's difficult to figure out which ones are the sarcasm and which ones are the facts. It would be helpful to leave out the sarcasm. I'm not trying to be difficult or critical. I just find your post to be confusing...and I truly want to understand.

What sarcasm? Everything posted above is 100% factual, with the exception of the obviously sarcastic "you are right, it is just another tax" with the rolleyes next to it.

With that said, I find the whole program to be a slippery slope. If I understand correctly, there is some amount of poundage available to catch to help generate research dollars by some non-government agency. That non-government agency chose to incentivize people to "buy" that poundage by making it available during a period of time where they would not normally be allowed to keep fluke. In order for this to work, the government had to make the poundage available to the program and make available special permits to those same people who "bought" the poundage.

I am afraid you do not understand correctly, but you have a basic grasp on it.

[CaptTB]

i love the "goverment won't get a dime" thing.they get a cut on everything and
unless you are gonna follow that money yourself{and please don't show me on
paper because print don't mean sh*t.its just another tax.

Wrong. I love how you add the "don't show me on paper" so no matter what any says or shows you your fantasy conspiracy theory can remain intact.

If you automatically refuse to see or hear or read any evidence to the contrary then you can never be wrong and no one can ever burst your bubble.

The simple fact is that the law does not even allow them to receive any of the money. Unless the law is changed that cannot change. So, for at least the moment you are 100% incorrect.

[CaptTB]

.... If $$ can extend a fluke season why not give the average rec fisherman a chance ..let say a research stamp for $30 for 3 weeks??

Please Bob, you know the answer to that. You have been involved in this long enough to know that it is a specific amount of pounds that must be accounted for to the pound. Every vessel must call in, have certified scales, etc. etc. Once the pounds are caught it is done or when 1/1/11 comes it is done regardless of how many pounds were caught.

You know from past experience that when we have tried to do things differently with regulations enforcement is always a major stumbling block.

In this case, exactly how are they supposed to enforce potentially thousands of boats catching these pounds? You cannot do it like MRFSS does the recreational harvest, this is commercial and recreational pounds and must be calculated to the pound.

This is what I am talking about. "It's a trap", as someone else put it.

Willing to put up $30 for 3 extra weeks? Wait till the bean counters get wind of that. Holy crap! a new way to shake down the public!
Yawn, another conspiracy theory that have been around for a decade and yet has NEVER come true. A) you do not have to buy it, B) it will simply be caught commercially as it has been for the past decade, C) the idea of catch shares was around long before the RSA program.

Nice try, but not even close.

Tony, the govt isn't getting any $ now but once they see we are willing to pay to fish....! Again, I do not blame any who paid --but this isn't good. I've been going to fisheries meeting since the 80s. I remember the first time someone suggested a 17 inch fluke and the public went nuts --ready to tear the building down. But just 10 years later we stuck with an 18" fluke --and we are lucky compared to NY.
Yeah Bob, I was there too remember? I was in Philly when they first instituted the 10 fish bluefish limit and have been going ever since.

If the gov't could get $$ they certainly would. Fortunately as a result of the efforts of many people over the years, they currently cannot. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. That means we keep our eyes open and stop the things from happening or change what happened.

It does not mean we stick our heads in the sand and do nothing so nothing else can happen.

If we are all so afraid of what "might" happen then sell your friggin boat and go hide in a closet somewhere. That way, you will never have to worry about someone trying to change the law so they can charge you and you won't have to fight to keep it from happening.

Tghe simple fact of the matter is this is NOT NEW. Do you think the gov't hasn't figured out over the past decade that if they could charge they would?

Do you think it just occurred to them this week?:rolleyes:

I notice you did not comment on the fact about the slot limit study done on your very boat (and which you received money for by the way) and the other studies that were bought and paid for with RSA $$.

See, if we leave the benefits and science out of it then it sounds scarier:eek:

[bunker dunker]

that is just the way i see it.this state is broke and they will do everything they can to get money.i do belive what people say or wright as long as its from the right people.i don't mean to offend,its just that our goverment lets to much ILLEGAL this go on and come in to this country.we have had poor eco
times and no one ever tried for a sw licence.

[CaptTB]

I wonder if the program didn't exist, would there be a larger poundage allocated to all? If not, then what happened is that the total available catch is reduced to allow for this program. That's a tax in my book, no matter how you feel about how those funds are used.

Then again, I find this all very confusing and may be completely wrong in what I just wrote. :confused:
As I said previously, it would add a couple days to our season, depending on when you added it. It is 3% of the TAL, taken off the top (sorry, but I have already explained this several times) before any allocation.

And, it is not 3%, it is NO MORE THAN 3%. It has been less. Any unused or unallocated amount goes back into the TAL, as has happened before also.

That is why I said if people do not want the research to be funded then go to the MAFMC meeting and tell them you want your lousy three more days of fishing and I'll stop wasting my time fighting for all this shit.

The simple fact of the matter is that the fishermen, not the government, worked with the MAFMC to come up with a way to fund science and research that would otherwise not get done. Since we only have fish to work with, we used fish (I say 'we', I did not create this program)

Someone made the intelligent post more than once that "it is all about money" or something to that effect.

Well duh! of course it is about money. What else do you think pays for the research? Collectively commercial and recreational fishermen got together and took a small portion of the allowable harvest each year and agreed to have it auctioned off. Those buying it would have the potential for a bonus (that is assuming they can get more money than they paid for it...ask PF how that worked one year for him) and all the money would fund research that no money existed for.

As proud as I am to have been involved with SSFFF and all we have accomplished, do you realize that the three years of painstaking work we all did and the HUGE investment in time and personal financial loss taken by all of us involved raised less money in three years than one fraction of one year of the RSA program raises?

And guess what, it all goes to the research regardless of what the paranoid might believe.

[CaptTB]

that is just the way i see it.this state is broke and they will do everything they can to get money.i do belive what people say or wright as long as its from the right people.i don't mean to offend,its just that our goverment lets to much ILLEGAL this go on and come in to this country.we have had poor eco
times and no one ever tried for a sw licence.

The state? The state does not even have anything to do with this program!!

Have you even read anything that was posted?:rolleyes:

[bunker dunker]

as i said before,thats the way i see it.as for state or country,their both broke.
and you can't tell me that if we{state or country} didn't spend so much on
the wrong things that we would even be having this conversation.

[missbelmar]

Please Bob, you know the answer to that. You have been involved in this long enough to know that it is a specific amount of pounds that must be accounted for to the pound. Every vessel must call in, have certified scales, etc. etc. Once the pounds are caught it is done or when 1/1/11 comes it is done regardless of how many pounds were caught.

You know from past experience that when we have tried to do things differently with regulations enforcement is always a major stumbling block.

In this case, exactly how are they supposed to enforce potentially thousands of boats catching these pounds? You cannot do it like MRFSS does the recreational harvest, this is commercial and recreational pounds and must be calculated to the pound.


Yawn, another conspiracy theory that have been around for a decade and yet has NEVER come true. A) you do not have to buy it, B) it will simply be caught commercially as it has been for the past decade, C) the idea of catch shares was around long before the RSA program.

Nice try, but not even close.


Yeah Bob, I was there too remember? I was in Philly when they first instituted the 10 fish bluefish limit and have been going ever since.

If the gov't could get $$ they certainly would. Fortunately as a result of the efforts of many people over the years, they currently cannot. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. That means we keep our eyes open and stop the things from happening or change what happened.

It does not mean we stick our heads in the sand and do nothing so nothing else can happen.

If we are all so afraid of what "might" happen then sell your friggin boat and go hide in a closet somewhere. That way, you will never have to worry about someone trying to change the law so they can charge you and you won't have to fight to keep it from happening.

Tghe simple fact of the matter is this is NOT NEW. Do you think the gov't hasn't figured out over the past decade that if they could charge they would?

Do you think it just occurred to them this week?:rolleyes:

I notice you did not comment on the fact about the slot limit study done on your very boat (and which you received money for by the way) and the other studies that were bought and paid for with RSA $$.

See, if we leave the benefits and science out of it then it sounds scarier:eek:


Actually Tony what alot of fishermen dont realize is alot of RSA programs are "Goverment Funded" Yes free. It doesnt come easy you have to do a little digging , some Googling and some time invested if you want to start an organization to be funded for a new program .If someone has the initiative they could try to start a new Funded Program or Piggy back off of someone or research center who already has a Grant . I'm not gonna get into it here seeing that the voice of reason & logic has been taken over by those who are burnt over the current system and those who believe Hoffa is still buried under Giant stadium.


I know it must get tiring Tony .
See Ya Around Town

Jimmy

[CaptTB]

Actually Tony what alot of fishermen dont realize is alot of RSA programs are "Goverment Funded" Yes free. It doesnt come easy you have to do a little digging , some Googling and some time invested if you want to start an organization to be funded for a new program .If someone has the initiative they could try to start a new Funded Program or Piggy back off of someone or research center who already has a Grant . I'm not gonna get into it here seeing that the voice of reason & logic has been taken over by those who are burnt over the current system and those who believe Hoffa is still buried under Giant stadium.


I know it must get tiring Tony .
See Ya Around Town

Jimmy

I appreciate it Jim. I did not even bother going into any more detail because the naysayers will find some excuse not to believe it anyway!

[Ol Pedro]

Tony , I'm glad that you are on our side . I'm just an old man on his way out and I don't claim to know a lot but we are on the same team here. I don't know any Bogans that haven't stepped up and fought for Boat Owners and Fishermens Rights . I can't blame Bob for being suspicious as I am too . Thank you for the insight but I'll stand with caution . Now since I'm the designated thread killer lets bury this one .

[JonDevin]

I guess my ultimate gripe is that money has to move from me to someone else to prove that it's ok for me to fish. It just sucks, and if it's necessary, then I'd like to move that money myself by donating directly to programs like SSFFF and others.

Imagine if everything worked that way. For example, let's say the government decided that there was not enough oil, so they put a limit on how much oil we could consume. But then let's say we beileved there was enough oil. So an organization pops up to prove to the government that there's enough oil. But they need funding, so they offer bus and trucking companies the ability to purchase additional oil and then use the proceeds to fund their program.

I dunno, it all just seems crazy.

But I do get that it is how it is, and that not enough people will pony up funds to support themselves, and the bottom line is we need to fund data.... because without the data, we don't have a solid argument.

Thanks CaptTB for your hard work and input.

[Fishguts]

The state? The state does not even have anything to do with this program!!

Have you even read anything that was posted?:rolleyes:

There you go again Tony a real thread killer:D You present facts and people still do not get it. This is great asset for all fisherman. Rsa is not for PB/Charters to make a living its to fund research for OUR fisheries. Pay our own way. As you explained to many on the internet(and myself in person) this program is a big win for fisherman and has been working well for many years. As I understand it( and please correct me if I am wrong) about the only thing that has changed is that more states will issue free landing permits and that in-turn will now allow charter/party permit holders to bid on RSA quota in those states. Where is the giant conspiracy and all the fraud. It blows when peoples agendas gets in the way of the facts. If your life sucks and you hate the government awesome:) If you think the seasons are too short and size limits are too big wonderful:) All of that has nothing to do with RSA. Plenty of battles to fight for our fisheries but we need facts and science to win. How many saltwater fisherman are there in NJ? 400,000 or 1,000,000 who knows . If you look at how many registered this year you would say not too many.

[Ryan W]

Very simple:

The current data is against us right now in terms of fisheries data. We need better data, better data takes money. We need money to pay for this. Everyone won't write a check for $1000, we need RSA. That simple.


Data bad=need to fix=need better science=need more $=RSA helps.

We're only shooting ourselves in the foot here. You think the government only exists to conspire against you, go to another country and find a new government. If not, try to work with them to get the $ for reaserch that we so desperately need.

[Irish Jigger]

So does someone actually show up after every trip to do the calculations and measurements or is it random ? If so is it up to the crew to do the work back at the dock? Hats off to whomever has to log all that info prior to fileting. Finally some sound numbers that are in our favor!

[Detour66]

If $$ can extend a fluke season why not give the average rec fisherman a chance ..let say a research stamp for $30 for 3 weeks??
What's fair for one should be fair for all...
To me the fluke season is over....time to move on...its as simple as that!

:
No conspriacy theories here....I don't care who the $$ goes to...but I am sure the info collected by the researchers is going to the Gov.

I would never pay $30 or $3 to extend a fluke season... anyway you look at it.... it's info that that very well could effect our future as saltwater fisherman.

Another fluke season come to a end....I here the bottom fishing is good!

[italianfisherman]

Is it just me or does this "research quota" seem like another big fat bribe being forced down the working mans throat.

$3000 for 3 more weeks of fluke fishing? Just wait till the state or the feds figure out that they can get away with this!

I don't blame the guys that bought into --they're trying to stay afloat-- but it is bad news.

This is the equiv of what the feds are calling "Catch Shares." Simply put: the guy with the most money will keep fishing while the ones who are just paying ther bills will get washed away with the tide.
I AGREE WITH YOU 110%....its a money thing.....

[RussH]

Because clearly knowing how many pounds of fluke the average party boat brings in on a daily basis isn't going to somehow provide accurate data right? Not to mention any other research that may be useful. Like if they check the racks and find out that 90% of the fish at the size we are keeping are females and that we're doing more harm than good. So they make adjustments accordingly?

It's all about the money though, and our president is a muslim, Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet made of frozen meat fired from a grassy knoll, and we didn't ever really go to the moon...

[Irish Jigger]

Couldn't this be been done on any day, on any boat, during the regular fluke season? All summer we fileted our fish at the dock, put the racks in a bag, tagged them, and put them in Petes freezer. I love fluke fishing and my season is over unless i want to pay to go on a party boat while my boat sits at the dock. I am all for the research 100% but its a tough pill to swallow watching the rsa boats going out fluking while iam in my slip waiting for the bass run.

[CaptTB]

Couldn't this be been done on any day, on any boat, during the regular fluke season? All summer we fileted our fish at the dock, put the racks in a bag, tagged them, and put them in Petes freezer. I love fluke fishing and my season is over unless i want to pay to go on a party boat while my boat sits at the dock. I am all for the research 100% but its a tough pill to swallow watching the rsa boats going out fluking while iam in my slip waiting for the bass run.

What is being confused here (and that is partly my fault since my posts are so friggin long winded I don't blame all of you for not reading every word:D)
is the "research" part of this.

Yes, data is being collected from the boats actually doing the trips.

However, that is NOT the research being paid for with the purchase of the quota. Any data collected from the RSA trips themselves is a BONUS and is ABOVE AND BEYOND the research that is paid for with the purchase of the quota by these boats and the commercial boats.

There is a whole list of research projects that are currently being funded either in part or in whole with the money generated from the sale of the RSA quota from each species. Some research gets funded with quota from several species (it is irrelevant what the fish is, it is the money generated from the sale of those fish that pays for the research)

These projects are submitted to the MAFMC in 2009. They are then approved for the 2010 fishing year (some projects span multiple years) and quota is assigned to them to then be sold and help pay for or offset the estimated costs of those projects.

Early in 2010 the quota is auctioned off, and the money is then given to the research projects based on how much quota was assigned to each project and subsequently how much that quota sold for per pound.

The fact that additional data like lengths and weights is collected when those fish are actually harvested is simply additional data that did not cost anything to collect.

Here is an example of a few projects that were funded in the past couple years: (project name in italics, recipient of funds in bold)

Discard Mortality in the Summer Flounder Fishery: A New Approach to Evaluation - National Fisheries Institute

Data collection and analysis in support of single and multispecies stock assessments in the Mid-Atlantic: Northeast Area Monitoring and Assessment Program Near Shore Trawl Program - Virginia Institute of Marine Science

2008 Fishery Independent Scup Survey of Hard Bottom Areas in Southern New England Waters - Charles Borden and Eric Rodegast

Evaluation of Summer Flounder Discard Mortality in the Bottom Trawl Fishery - Cornell Cooperative Ext. of Suffolk County

Development of a Supplemental Finfish Survey Targeting Mid-Atlantic Migratory Species - National Fisheries Institute

[fsl1]

I think there is a difference without distinction here...

The RSA money comes from the private sector and doesn't go to "the man" at all if I understand correctly. The people using the resource pay for the research, which at first glance does not seem controversial at all.
However, my parents used to pay $6k per year in property taxes and it was all inclusive for school supplies, athletics, extracurriculars, etc. not to mention garbage and other services.

Now, I pay $30K on an adjusted basis and get no garbage service, we have "fundraisers" for a public school in one of the highest income areas in the US to buy pencils and paper, and we don't get deer picked up when they're dead on the side of the road.

The RSA money may never touch Govt. hands, but haven't they abdicated one of their old responsibilities without a commensurate reduction in the taxes we pay? What would the regulation be based on if not science? My municipality doesn't get any of the money that I pay my garbage company, but I never got a refund when they stopped providing it either.

Another interesting situation is "whose science" is being funded? A very different story if rec and commercial fishermen are both paying for the same "impartial" science. Ditto the science that us fishermen want to show that stocks are healthy and are willing to pay for but not if if it's used to show that we should stop fishing.

I applaud all of you who are so well versed in this issue; for those of you whose living is at stake it would be irresponsible if you weren't as informed. Like many other areas of regulation, there is sometimes a calculated morass of jargon, legalese, and double talk intended to make most people throw up their hands. Thank you all for sifting through it and helping us understand.

[shrimpman steve]

TB, you are a very patient man:)

thanks for your commitment

[jakesdad]

I am happy Tony is on our side. He is the attorney that everyone wants. You might like or not like what he says but he is 100% truthful and he is willing to explain it in layman's terms, even if he has to do it 10 times.

If it wasn't for his knowledge and persereverance, we might not even be having this discussion.

Thanks Tony, Henry

[CaptTB]

I am happy Tony is on our side. He is the attorney that everyone wants. You might like or not like what he says but he is 100% truthful and he is willing to explain it in layman's terms, even if he has to do it 10 times.

If it wasn't for his knowledge and persereverance, we might not even be having this discussion.

Thanks Tony, Henry

Now if I could just find a way to make my time and effort in fisheries management generate lawyers fees instead of costing me money I'd be set!!:D:D

Guess I'd have to become an attorney first, but dammit that will cost more money!;)

[RussH]

Just a curious question. I think I'm gonna hit the afternoon trip on the Star tomorrow since I'm going to be in Manalapan in the morning. Are you guys completely disembarking the boats and then bringing people back on with new tickets, or how is it working? I've never gone out on a 1/2 day afternoon trip.

I assume people fishing both trips get to keep their spot from the morning right? Would I be stuck fishing the side of the boat coming in the afternoon or if I get there around 12:30 is there a chance of picking up a stern or pulpit spot? Just curious what the regulars have to say.

I'd love to do the 3/4, but that would be... irresponsible of me. :D

[captbogan]

I should not have posted about RSA without researching it. In fact, it was explained to me a couple years ago but I had forgotton about it. Carry on, men, while I pick these crow feathers out of my teeth.

PS --If anyone wants an apology, you're not getting it.

[hartattack]

Hey Russ. Morning trip returns at 12:30. Afternoon anglers are already waiting on the dock before then. Morning folks who return for PM trip can claim any open rod holder before the new folks board. Good luck Sunday :)

[shrimpman steve]

get there by 12 and you should get a decent spot somewhere. Depending on the weather I may join you.

[BOILERMAKER]

eaten some crow before if you dip then in boiling water then ice water the feathers come off easier . see ya thurs bob :D

[captbogan]

eaten some crow before if you dip then in boiling water then ice water the feathers come off easier . see ya thurs bob :D

Can't wait. Yellowfin here we come!

[Fishguts]

Thanks for posting. And thanks to Capt TB for setting the record straight

[Pete]

The better man will admit when he is wrong. Kudos! Even a broken watch is right twice a day! You clearly "manned up". Good for you!

[barbarian]

Just a quick question, how do you pay for the permit by CHECK/CREDIT CARD or is it CASH ONLY PLEASE ? Can anyone answer THANKS

[CaptTB]

Just a quick question, how do you pay for the permit by CHECK/CREDIT CARD or is it CASH ONLY PLEASE ? Can anyone answer THANKS
Since you do not pay for the permit, the answer to your question is "You don't."

[barbarian]

THANKS for the reply CAPT TB , do you know the process how a party boat obtains the RSA permit? THANK YOU AGAIN KINDLY for your time

[barbarian]

CAPT TB just wanted to rephrase my last question ,is there any types FEES to be paid for RSA permit and type/options of payment by the applicant for whom the permit will be issude too THANKS YOU for your help

[jigman90]

I don't know if I missed the negitive feed back about the RSA fluke permits [computer crashed] but all I want to say is that it is a messed up situation!
If the Goverment wants records they should ask each party boats to keep records during the season!
also isn't this salt water registery that each of us had to sign up for, for records?
then there is the SFFF has everyone forgotten about this group are we not supposed to stick together?
I'm a boat owner plus I also fish on Party boats! I fish a lot with my Grandkids ages 12 and 18 how do I explain about the RSA permits to them!
I tell you what I tell them! it is all about greed!! those boat that are buying these permits are going to be the first ones to CRY when they are run out of business by our Gov't they have turned there back on other personaly owned boaters and Charter Boat owners and other Party boat owners for a couple of extra days of fishing! these RSA PERMITS are for the greedy!
As for the anglers that are fishing on these boats I now have no respect for you either and some of these anglers are very popular on this board!
I would like you guys to personaly tell my grandchildren why you fish for fluke on a RSA permit boat and they can't fluke fish on our boat!!
I personally will not EVER fish on any of the party boats that fish for fluke on the RSA permit I know my money is small but you have lost a customer forever!
:mad:
Greedy people will loose in the end!!

[Chrisk]

Maybe you should read some of the RSA posts here before posting. As I understand it the permits fund the program.

[paulham]

can the moderators make a sticky of the threads that have discussed this already? Now that RSA season is on us, there will probably be a lot more of these uninformed posts popping up.

[Detour66]

A lot of these in depth post's you need to be a lawyer to understand them...In other words they are not in laymens terms....It would be nice for a member who does understand these long winded regulations to put them in words that I and possible others could understand to avoid the confusion!

But that might be too much to ask! I am not sure.

[Life's A Beach]

can the moderators make a sticky of the threads that have discussed this already? Now that RSA season is on us, there will probably be a lot more of these uninformed posts popping up.


They COULD but a better idea would be for MEMBERS to just do a simple SEARCH, using said feature on this site and finding the appropriate posts themselves. 'Give a man a fish and he'll eat for one day........Teach him to fish (or search) and he'll eat (find his own answers without being spoon-fed like a baby) forever.'

Please don't respond that you don't have enough time to search yourself.........PLEASE! It takes seconds and I'd lay LONG ODDS you've got one extra moment to stay online.

[shrimpman steve]

You have just proved that you know NOTHING about how the RSA works! There have been many threads about this program, if your computer was down maybe you should have looked at past posts to educate yourself about the subject! And why take your frustrations out on the boats that purchased poundage to keep us fishing! The boat owners are probably going to loose money by keeping us fishing, but you go ahead and boycott those boats that have purchased poundage, which was "set aside" anyway. I will make up for your shortfall.

I for one thank the boats that have decided to purchase the poundage and extend my season. This is a program that has been around for YEARS! 100% of the money goes to research, which you would know if you did some research before condemning boats trying to stay in business.

Don't explain to your grandchildren that you can't fluke, just take them on a trip on a RSA vessel.

The only reason I take this tone with you, is because you have stated that you have no "respect" for peeps fishing these boats, which I am one of. Learn about the permit before you hurt someone trying to extend our season legaly. If you don't like it blame the government, not the boats adhearing to the law. If the PB's didn't purchase the poundage the commercials would have anyway.

Maybe you can do some research (not hard, just look at past posts) and give these guys a break.

[RussH]

Im going to go a step further than Steve because clearly we're never going to fish together. Your basically teaching your grandkids to be as ignorant as you clearly are. Hopefully they still manage to grow up smart and realize good from bad.

[RussH]

A lot of these in depth post's you need to be a lawyer to understand them...In other words they are not in laymens terms....It would be nice for a member who does understand these long winded regulations to put them in words that I and possible others could understand to avoid the confusion!

But that might be too much to ask! I am not sure.


Here real simple. Pounds of quota up to 3% are set aside. Boats bid for the right to fish those pounds. All money goes to fund research work. Not,necessarily the species being fished for. Good enough? Hard to type all this on my Droid.

[The Sinker Man]

If they are in the second grade they should be able to understand it the way CaptTB explained it.

[Detour66]

When will we realize there is gold on the bottom of the ocean....have you seen the price of fish lately...yeah years ago when fish was cheap no one cared...but now...forgetaboutit! So they dont want use to collect that gold so we have shorter seasons....larger size limits....more rules and regulations to stop us from getting them valuable fish. Just try to go to a state park and pan for gold..... the Park Rangers will be all over you. just my take on it..I could be wrong!

[JonDevin]

Here's my oversimplistic pictorial look at how I understand it. But I think it's the general gist. Did I spell gist correctly?

[jmurr711]

Here's my oversimplistic pictorial look at how I understand it. But I think it's the general gist. Did I spell gist correctly?
hahaha jonny boy to much time on your hands with that cartoon lol
dude we got to get you back out on the water lol i think you've fully lost what mind you had!

[Fishguts]

When will we realize there is gold on the bottom of the ocean....have you seen the price of fish lately...yeah years ago when fish was cheap no one cared...but now...forgetaboutit! So they dont want use to collect that gold so we have shorter seasons....larger size limits....more rules and regulations to stop us from getting them valuable fish. Just try to go to a state park and pan for gold..... the Park Rangers will be all over you. just my take on it..I could be wrong!

This thread has been beat to death. Thanks for bringing some humor back to the board to lighten things up . I am sure your post gave most a smile and a good laugh . Thanks for sharing

[barbarian]

Its none of my business how much the quota/poundage costs an individual but I would like to have an idea how its paid for/payment method , can any one shed any light?

[RussH]

I believe it's done auction style. And you can bid for poundage. I remember hearing the average price was in the range of $1.75 a pound. Now that's 3rd hand knowledge. So figure the average boat dropped 3,000 dollars on Quota. That is going to be near impossible to make back. I bet they break even, do some good with it, and keep their regulars happy, and that's about it.

It's really not the evil everyone is making it out to be.

[RussH]

ROFL I just got home so I can see your chart now Jon. That's awesome. Good work.

[jigman90]

What I noticed, Tony, is that the people getting overly excited are the Fishermen who own boats and don't go on PB's. And the PB owners who didn't pay to participate in RSA. Those excluded are the ones most offended.

As a 50/50 charter/pb fishermen, and having double checked what you told us. I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to fish more, AND knowing that my money is going towards not only my favorite boats, but towards a better understanding of how we can manage our fisheries and still have our favorite hobbies. It's pretty cool in my opinion. And it's 3 weeks of one type of fish. Not that huge a deal I think.
with opions like this Russ is why we have screwed up fluke fishing laws now!
I've fished along side of you and I can't belive your comments ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU KNOW I own my own boat and fish on PB ALSO
GREEDY FISHERMAN 3 EXTRA WEEKS FOR YOU AND NOTHING FOR MY GRAND CHILD!!

[shrimpman steve]

GREEDY FISHERMAN 3 EXTRA WEEKS FOR YOU AND NOTHING FOR MY GRAND CHILD!!

NOT TRUE, you can bring your grand son (or daughter) on an RSA trip and help donate to research! The set aside is there any way, so use it! They have been doing this in NY for Years. In my opinion it is about time the NJ boats took advantge of the program. But what do I know being you don't respect my opinion anyway.

[barbarian]

THANKS RussH Im trying to find out how payment is made after price is figured out check/credit card/cash only please and is payment sent in or the picked up at the dock and permit is handed over to capt THANKS AGAIN RussH

[RussH]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Are you trying to say that the captains give envelopes of cash to some politician to fish? I feel like I'm being baited. Ironic on a fishign message board of course. I'm sure the RSA is an organization and the captains write them a business check. Same way I purchase from auctions in my business.

[RussH]

with opions like this Russ is why we have screwed up fluke fishing laws now!
I've fished along side of you and I can't belive your comments ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU KNOW I own my own boat and fish on PB ALSO
GREEDY FISHERMAN 3 EXTRA WEEKS FOR YOU AND NOTHING FOR MY GRAND CHILD!!


If you've fished with me then you'd know me to be fairly level headed, and at least moderately intelligent. I wasn't trying to say ALL private boat owners are upset with RFA and don't fish party boats. I was making a generalization about my personal experiences thus far.

I'm not looking to fight, but I don't think you can call us greedy fishermen for supporting the RSA boats. The quota is there, they bought it, why not support them for supporting research?

[jmurr711]

I feel like I'm being baited.

thats quite a LINE :)

[CaptTB]

THANKS RussH Im trying to find out how payment is made after price is figured out check/credit card/cash only please and is payment sent in or the picked up at the dock and permit is handed over to capt THANKS AGAIN RussH Apart from the obvious "baiting" (thanks Russ, I laughed at that one!) since it has already been explained that the permits involved are not part of the RSA program and are from the state, your question makes no sense. The purchase of RSA quota and the issuance of the permit are two separate actions involving two different entities that are not related to each other.

(going to keep being specific in my responses to see how long it takes you to actually say what you mean)

[CaptTB]

Here, I'll "bite" just because I am bored.:D

The quota is auctioned off by NFI, the group responsible for managing the auction of the RSA quota for the MAFMC. Monies for purchasing RSA quota is sent directly to them, and the money is then distributed directly to the groups performing the approved research studies.

Scientific exemption permits or special exemption landing permits (whatever the individual state calls them) as well as federal special landings permits do not involve any money whatsoever and are mailed directly to the recipient.

So, if you are trying to find out "where to send my money so I can fish" or some other such nonsense, you will need to participate in next years RSA auction. I would not recommend that unless you are comfortable with giving out your hard earned cash to fund research without any guarantee of getting that money back.

[RussH]

Tony, I have a suspicion that this is the most fishing this guy has done in a long time. And he got two big fish to bite. LOL