A call "For Help" and "To Help" [Archive] - NJFishing.com Your Best Online Source for Fishing Information in New Jersey

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CaptTB

10-30-2009, 10:37 AM

In a previous thread I asked the question "Where is the Support?" (http://njfishing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16345)

In that thread I made the following statement to end my comments:
While "unity" is a word that has been tossed around a lot, and quite a lot lately, there is one thing I have seen before, many many times before, and am seeing again already.

Groups taking "other approaches" to dealing with the same problem.

THAT my friends is NOT unity!

What is, however, is groups SUPPORTING the "other approaches" of those fighting a given battle. No one said there was only one way to skin this cat, but when EACH GROUP takes their own path WITHOUT supporting others fighting the same fight it is more of the SAME OLD SAME OLD we have seen for years in recreational fisheries.

If different groups have different spheres of influence or different areas of expertise then lets SUPPORT THE ACTIONS of those groups while SIMULTANEOUSLY working in our own way to achieve the same goal!!

To say "we are taking a different approach" may mean you or he or she is working on the issue, but not in a UNIFIED WAY!

Work on the problem as you see fit and in a way you think YOU can best deal with the issue at hand. But, why do that WITHOUT supporting others working on the same issue?

I never questioned anyone's approach to dealing with this issue since to date, no one else has even offered a "different approach" to dealing with it! What I DID DO is question the LACK of support from others of those already fighting this fight and the efforts they are making, the measures they have already taken.

Together we stand, divided we FAIL.

Enough said.

I was told by the chairman of the NJOA that at their ROOR rally they would discuss the Sea Bass issue. I was also told that, as far as other organizations' support of the current Sea Bass lawsuit that:It might also be, as with the NJOA, some organizations are taking a different apporach to the problem. But, this is only my opinion.

Here we are nearly a week after the rally and it is now time to ask two questions:

1) What "different approach" is NJOA taking to deal with the Sea Bass closure, SO WE CAN ALL SUPPORT THAT ACTION?

2) Will the NJOA in turn support the actions already being taken by other groups?

It's time to put up or shut up here people. If NJOA, JCAA, RFA, YMCA you name it is fighting the fight then I would like to know how so I can decide if their course(s) of action are worth supporting. In addition, I would love to see the "unity" that is so often touted by various groups by their PUBLIC support of the actions already being taken. If they are unwilling to support those actions, at least an explanation as to why would, in my opinion, be appropriate.

Not everyone will agree with every course of action being taken, so if there is no "unified support" for the actions being taken let's discuss why.

I await the answers to my 2 questions. The action United Boatmen and RFA are taking(at least the initial action) is already out there and going on as we speak, so you all know what I am doing and supporting.

I am hoping to see actions taken by every group imaginable, even if that is just supporting another group, this way I can have more than one place to put my support.

Capt. Tony Bogan

PS: This is NOT an attack on anyone or any group, this is a genuine call "for help" in our fight and "to help" any other groups that are fighting this fight. Since I cannot find any information anywhere else as to other courses of action being taken, I figured here was a great place to start!

hammer4reel

10-30-2009, 11:53 AM

Capt. Jerry P

10-30-2009, 11:58 AM

Just got done posting something of the same in a few forums

I was shocked when i looked at other "Groups Clubs and Organizations Websites

Most are updated pretty regularly.

Many fail to make any mention of the seabass closure any actions or show any support of the rfa lawsuit...

If groups arent doing anything to help the situation besides putting up a letter saying feds close seabass. They could at least show support for groups Like Rfa and United boatmen that are.

Or let everyone know what they are trying to do to resolve the issue so people could support them!

I am not on any board (just a supporter) of groups that fight for fisherman so i will be first to admit that i dont know the politics of it (groups joining together)

But i find it hard to believe all groups fighting for fisherman cant get together on this.

If nothing is done promptly and the sebass closure just continues it just sets a precedent other fisheries at other times

dales529

10-30-2009, 01:04 PM

Tony, I attended the rally and Tom Fote was there to talk about the sea bass closure, as was Pete Grimbilas from reef rescue to talk about getting commercial pots off the reefs.

After attending the rally I believe NJOA main objectives are based here on the NJ state level, where they feel we need a severe change in Nj government policy.
Right now im sure they are putting forth every effort to Get Chris Christie elected Next Tuesday, so change in favor of outdoorsman can happen.

The fight the are pushing for is happening in just 4 more days, and im sure they will not (nor should they ) stop to look at other issues going on right now.

I talked briefly with Ant at the rally, and he agreed we have to fight on both the national level as well as the state level.
NJOA is more involved on the state level and also is trying to educate sportsman to why wee need to watch both areas equally.
There is no doubt that policing what is going on in NJ is just as important.

Thats why I have also joined the NJOA as well as the RFA.

Dan,
Not picking on your post (good points were made) and fully support your joining of the NJOA.
Two points or questions however:
1) What is the NJOA Plan B IF Christie loses come Tuesday? How are they going to work with a "new governor" Again what is plan B?
2) Why is so difficult for them to OPENLY and ACTIVELY endorse or support the RFA Legal Defense on the Sea Bass issue. I cant see that taking a huge amount of time.
Again I dont think anyone here is knocking any groups, just looking for UNITY on the major issues while understanding each group has its own issues as well. However there needs to be enough time for all of it before all we have is TIME.

hammer4reel

10-30-2009, 01:31 PM

Dan,
Not picking on your post (good points were made) and fully support your joining of the NJOA.
Two points or questions however:
1) What is the NJOA Plan B IF Christie loses come Tuesday? How are they going to work with a "new governor" Again what is plan B?
2) Why is so difficult for them to OPENLY and ACTIVELY endorse or support the RFA Legal Defense on the Sea Bass issue. I cant see that taking a huge amount of time.
Again I dont think anyone here is knocking any groups, just looking for UNITY on the major issues while understanding each group has its own issues as well. However there needs to be enough time for all of it before all we have is TIME.

But that is the problem, they do have differnet agendas , I dont see the NJOA aking why the RFA hasnt got the pots off the reef ?

Both levels have to be fought,
im sure Ant will answer for himself and the NJOA as he knows whats going on there daily, I just joined there after seeing how hard they are working here in NJ.

But IM sure that they feel their efforts right now have to be 100% towards trying to get the RIGHT Gov. in office.
As big as the sea bass issue is there are other things going on at the state level just as important for outdoorsman, and they are doing ALOT of work with just a few people.

Shame more guys are not showing stock in the outdoors, we would have a much BIGGER voice if we gave it five minutes of effort.

Everyday im involved I learn 10 more things going on, its a good thing we have guys fighting on all fronts !!!!!!!!!!!

WE need to stop questioning why certailn groups fight a certain way until you get some info and understand what they are fighting.

I havent seen anything here about the Mis appropriated shellfish funds here that Corzine just got caught misallowcating 850 thousand dollars from, ( other than what was posted here by the NJOA.)

CaptTB

10-30-2009, 02:12 PM

But that is the problem, they do have differnet agendas , I dont see the NJOA aking why the RFA hasnt got the pots off the reef ?

First let me say that I understand what you said and applaud your getting involved and joining.

But, to the first quote above, NJOA has taken it upon themselves to become active in Salt Water fisheries to a degree, so I would hope they will ask what RFA and UB and every other group is doing.

But IM sure that they feel their efforts right now have to be 100% towards trying to get the RIGHT Gov. in office.
Perhaps, and I would not normally fault someone for something like that. However.....

As big as the sea bass issue is there are other things going on at the state level just as important for outdoorsman, and they are doing ALOT of work with just a few people.

And therein lies the reason I posted this thread, because the NJOA made a POINT OF USING THE SEA BASS CLOSURE AS THE HEADLINE FOR THEIR MASS E-MAIL FOR THEIR ROOR RALLY. I was later told to wait for the "different approach" that NJOA is taking.

My post was a request for more information on that approach so I may support it after finding out what it is they are doing, and any other actions being taken by other groups on this issue.

WE need to stop questioning why certailn groups fight a certain way until you get some info and understand what they are fighting.

Agreed, except too often other groups are trying to subvert the actions of one group to further their own agenda. It has happened many times before. (NJOA did not exist at that time, so I am not talking about them) In the case of NJOA I was merely asking what approach are they taking in fighting a fight THEY THEMSELVES held up as a reason to go to their rally and get involved, so my purpose was exactly what you said, finding out what they are fighting and how they are fighting it, and asking for their support in return for the actions already being taken.

I havent seen anything here about the Mis appropriated shellfish funds here that Corzine just got caught misallowcating 850 thousand dollars from

The thread was posted in the fisheries management forum yesterday.

hammer4reel

10-30-2009, 02:24 PM

Should have said other than what was posted by the NJOA was said about this Misappropriated money.
My point was each group is SEEING things going on here that others groups are missing.

Hopefully by getting guys together that represent both interests there can me more unified fighting .

It all comes down to ALL the orginazations are working with a skeleton crew of WILLING workers,
and ANYONE who loves the outdoors needs to stand up a little and help in what ever way they can

Hopefully Ant can tell you more of what is going on through the NJOA, I can only explain what I heard at the rally and have read elseware,

Capt. Jerry P

10-30-2009, 05:06 PM

Lots of groups do alot of good things for fisherman... Many different fights and all are noble causes. But Different fights have to take priority at times no?

A federal closure at a snap of a finger for most of the eastern seaboard on Seabass. One of the most popular species people fish fish on a stock that most consider healthy and plentiful.

A few groups get right on it and try to fight it with the best way they can and come up with a lawsuit approach...

Why cant everyone just come out in the open and support them even if those groups are fighting other issues... put something on there site to spread the word and educate more people.. which could help with donations etc.

Or Let us know the other approach they are taking so people can support them...

In this particular case (black seabass) if something is not done quickly... It will be another severe economic loss for the fishing industry... Which could just locally could potential put Some party boats who rely on the winter time seabass (a stock which most believe is healthy) as well a laundry of others out of business.

Should be easy to see the severity in that and easier to join together on?

I am not trying to downplay any specific group or the hard work of many other groups or many of the good causes they work for! Tons of issues all which are important and all appreciated.

On a state level (Lookin at Just NJ) It is hurtin a lot of anglers and businesses.

dales529

10-30-2009, 06:29 PM

CaptTB

11-01-2009, 10:42 AM

This in from the NJOA Chairman:
Hi CaptTB

Feel free to copy and paste my response to your question, since you've asked it on other forums and I have provided an answer.

The NJOA supports any initiative that benefits angling, hunting, forestry, marine ecology, environmental stewardship as long as the principles of conservation weigh appropriately into the decision.

There are many ways to skin a cat, the RFA, United Boatmen, commercial interestes, etc. may take one course of action - other groups like the NJOA (that is state focused) have other avenues at their disposal. The NJOA is pursuing the sea bass closure from an educational standpoint (educating anglers, hunters, conservationists, NJ legislators, etc.) about the closure. We are also targeting our efforts at influencing key people locally. (Yes, there is, are, a local influence.)

While a lawsuit is one approach our approach is from a different direction (I don't think it wise to announce our strategy on an internet forum.) Together, we may all help to make a difference in the long run. As you wrote, the sea bass closure in one of several issues discussed at the rally.

Similarly, we haven't seen support from United Boatmen on removing commercial gear from the reefs. We don't assume there is lack of support by United Boatment - it might just be that it is not a priority or perhaps it is being approached from a different angle or maybe there's a conflict - we don't assume to know. The NJOA is dedicating its efforts at the state level (Gov., DEP and DFW) and is attempting to leverage any influence from the state back on the federal government for those reefs in federal waters.

Anyway, we at the NJOA wish the RFA, United Boatmen and commercial interests success on raising funds for litigation. Hopefully the length of time ligigation entails can make a diference in the short term, as well as the long term. In the interim, the NJOA will pursue an alternate course of action.

Again, feel free to copy and paste this response to on the other forums where you are asking such questions.

Ant

CaptTB

11-01-2009, 10:45 AM

My response, and let me say up front that this is a HUGE disappointment. NJOA has decided to work without the RFA (who has thousands of recreational members from the state of NJ) at the state level, while continuing to withold its active support of RFA and United Boatmen's efforts.

IF and when NJOA ever actually takes a public stance and course of action on this topic suffice to say United Boatmen will support it iuf it has anything worht supporting to it.

Here is my direct response to "Ant":rolleyes:

Similarly, we haven't seen support from United Boatmen on removing commercial gear from the reefs. We don't assume there is lack of support by United Boatment - it might just be that it is not a priority or perhaps it is being approached from a different angle or maybe there's a conflict - we don't assume to know.

Difference is Ant that United Boatmen never held up removing commercial gear as a reason to join or support United Boatmen, as a matter of fact United Boatmen has never commented on the topic and has therefore no connection to it whatsoever.

NJOA however DID use the Sea Bass Closure as a reason to attend the NJOA rally and support NJOA...

Big difference sir, and if you cannot see that then I question your judgement on this and other issues as well.

The NJOA is dedicating its efforts at the state level (Gov., DEP and DFW) and is attempting to leverage any influence from the state back on the federal government for those reefs in federal waters.

Anyway, we at the NJOA wish the RFA, United Boatmen and commercial interests success on raising funds for litigation. Hopefully the length of time ligigation entails can make a diference in the short term, as well as the long term. In the interim, the NJOA will pursue an alternate course of action.

Again, feel free to copy and paste this response to on the other forums where you are asking such questions.

Ant

Thank you for your non-response, response.

It is a shame that NJOA, in my first hand experience attending NJOA sponsored meetings previously, has talked about unity and consensus yet when pressed has chosen to remain silent when asked to unify.

This is the response I expected, it is too bad NJOA has chosen to ignore the fact that groups like UB and RFA have been working locally and at a state level for years before NJOA even existed, while simultaneously working at the federal level, and has chosen to go it alone with an as yet unspecified "different approach".

For those reading, United Boatmen and RFA will continue to work on both the local, state and federal levels, while offering actual public support (and not just well wishes) for any action NJOA and other groups may actively take, if we ever find out what they are.

Working behind the scenes is something that has been done since before the closure even happened, knowing that it was likely to come as many of us did.

Time to work openly and support each other. Too bad NJOA has chosen not to do that.

Capt. Tony Bogan

CaptTB

11-01-2009, 02:35 PM

Since apparently Ant will not post this info here but told me I could, here you go.

Perhap you should read the answer again CaptTB. The answer is there - it just seems that you are having some difficulty recognizing it.

As for unity, in WWII there were allied forces working toward the same goal but working in different areas to win the war. There was unity in their purpose - but they focused on different areas as a means of accomplishing it.

The NJOA is working on the issue from two areas at the state level. We are guided by the expertise of people with decades of experience in salt water issues, people with past experience with DEP, DFW, etc. We have spoken with legislators and biologists, etc.

Because CaptTB isn't using the approach of the NJOA we aren't saying there isn't "unity." We're glad that the sea bass closure is being approached at both the state and federal levels - not just by means of a lawsuit.

Gladly, my definition of unity and your differs. Yours seems to be we do it the CapTB way or there isn't unity. This definition is too narrow for me.

The NJOA is not on a funding drive to support our efforts - so we are not competing with the funding sources you would use for the lawsuit. People and organizations that want to fund the lawsuit are not using there money for any NJOA purposes.

Please feel free to also copy and paste this response on the other forums where your are posting similar frustration.

There seems to be an effort by some to vilify people/organizations that don't conform with the thinking of others - I think this is what is creating dessension in our ranks - not people who work toward a common goal but do so taking different approaches.

Ant

CaptTB

11-01-2009, 02:36 PM

My response:

Gladly, my definition of unity and your differs. Yours seems to be we do it the CapTB way or there isn't unity. This definition is too narrow for me.

And, Ant, perhaps you should learn to read and comprehend what others write, since I never even remotely suggested there was any problem with alternative approaches. As a matter of fact, I have repeatedly stated I wish to support all other actions being taken. Something that you, however, have not done.

The NJOA is not on a funding drive to support our efforts - so we are not competing with the funding sources you would use for the lawsuit. People and organizations that want to fund the lawsuit are not using there money for any NJOA purposes.

No, NJOA is simply using issues of which they have little or no involvement in to drum up support for NJOA, while at the same time giving mere lip service, and nothing more, to other actions being taken. NJOA, despite not being involved at in the issue other than "behind the scenes" and "at the local and state level" has continued to ignore requests for support from other groups doing things at the same levels, and at the federal level as well.

Perhaps I should send you a link to a dictionary on-line so you can look up the words support and unity, apparently your definition is different than the rest of planet earth. :rolleyes:

There seems to be an effort by some to vilify people/organizations that don't conform with the thinking of others - I think this is what is creating dessension in our ranks - not people who work toward a common goal but do so taking different approaches.

Ant

Actually, there seems to be a lack of concern for the actual issue at hand and the individuals and businesses alike that are affected by it on the part of the NJOA chairman. What there has been, other than his attempts to portray a request, repeated request, for answers and support as an attempt to "vilify" him and the organization he is from, is a disingenuous use of an important topic by NJOA to get attendees at their rally.

This automatically defensive attitude on your part is a bit childish, and this is the second time you have tried to change the subject.

As I said before, apparently you have learned much from dealing with politicians in Trenton, too bad it was how to avoid the topic, speak without saying anything of substance, and portray yourself as the poor persecuted "wounded duck" who others are picking on.

You sir are a non-issue as far as I am concerned.

Hopefully your "education" campaign will work, it is certainly important for people to be educated on the various issues we face. In this particular case, a friendly piece of advice would be to at least mention the word Sea Bass somewhere on the NJOA website. Since your flyer for the ROOR rally mentioned nothing about the issue and none of the subsequent posts you have made even mentioned the topic, perhaps actually discussing it publicly would be a start, but that's just a suggestion.

If you need help in identifying the main points of this issue, for example the fact that it goes far beyond just sea bass, perhaps a quick stop by the RFA or Unitedboatmen website will help, or since you apparently cannot offer any direct public support for those groups' actions and can only wish them luck, perhaps just pointing people to the various websites where those two groups have posted information like njsaltwaterfisherman.com

I also find it interesting that, as before, you simply ignored points in my post and pretended they were never mentioned, but I have come to expect that from you.

Also, You mentioned that you have not seen UB supporting the "commercials off reefs" issue, and compared that to me asking for NJOA support of the actions being taken by RFA and UB on the sea bass issue. Do you even understand the difference? You do realize that UB never used that topic to generate attendence for meeting/rallys nor to get others to support us right? By the way, is NJOA currently accepting donations? Unless you are telling me that NJOA is not currently accepting any sort of funding whatsoever from individuals then you are most certainly on a funding drive, as are all groups who accept donations. Just because you did not specifically ask for money for Sea Bass or any other issue does not change that fact. Difference is, we are asking for YOUR support of an issue that YOU YOURSELF used as a reason to get people to come to an NJOA RALLY. UB has never done any such thing with the reef issue, but nice try to once again deflect the topic away from it's actual purpose.

You made one comment that I found interesting:While a lawsuit is one approach our approach is from a different direction (I don't think it wise to announce our strategy on an internet forum.)

It reminded me of something I learned as a child about people telling you they have your interests in mind but won't tell you how, why or what they are doing, and the best example of it is found here:
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"
http://www.dad2son.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/toto-exposes-oz1.jpg

CaptBob

11-02-2009, 02:46 AM

There are many good organizations that have dedicated men and women fighting for us and without a doubt each is sincere about their cause.

We have a 2 part problem.

1). The recreational fishery is being attacked on many fronts at one time, everybody has their own "main concern issue", and this causes us to be divided.

2). The many organizations that are fighting for us, fragment what resources we have and at times work against each other.

What is needed is a united front (as the NRA has done with gun rights) to focus our resources and we in our fight would then be stronger, and be a most formatable force to those persons/agencies that are attacking our sport.

While I beong and support the vast majority of organizations that fight for us, the RFA has shown to be the point on many fights. We must throw our full support behind them if we are ever to succeed.