Meeting with Tony Bogan [Archive] - NJFishing.com Your Best Online Source for Fishing Information in New Jersey

shrimpman steve

10-03-2009, 01:14 AM

First off I would like to thank Tony for taking three hours of his time and meeting with us. Also a shout out to Dales for setting this all up!

As most of you know, the purpose of this meeting was to get educated about the problems we are facing and come up with ways that we can help. I am not going to go into all the rules, regs, and how the many agency's come up with these rules (there are more acronyms for these groups than letters in a Campbell's can of alphabet soup:eek:).

I will tell you what I personally came out of the meeting with. WE NEED MONEY AND REPRESENTATION! I will be the first to admit that I have never joined the RFA, but that will change tomorrow! They are the only group with a full time Washington lobbyist and that is what we need! We also need donations to the SSFFF. I know this has been discussed in the past and people want to know where the money is going. The money is being VERY well spent, we all agreed that the fund must start letting people know, in detail, what the money is being spent on. I think in the near future you will be able to see just how well the money is spent. we have some volunteers who will be working to update the funds website on a regular basis to keep everyone in the loop as to how the money is spent. Trust me WE NEED MORE! last year when figuring out how much to donate to the SSFFF, I figured it was well worth a day of fishing to try and insure future fishing for my kids. So I donated $75.00 which is my average cost to fish for a day on a party boat. If everyone would donate one day of fishing the fund would benefit greatly and continue to do the work that NEEDS to be done.

As far as protests, petitions, and local politicians I think I have been barking up the wrong tree. It was explained to me that most of the local politicians usually side with the fishermen, so why preach to the choir with a local protest. The problem is in the nations capital (shocker)! The RFA, as mentioned earlier, is the only recreational fishing lobbyist in Washington. WE MUST support them. You may not agree with everything they do, but you must look at the big picture, they are trying to help us. I say let us help them, help us. That means money by any means necessary! Benefit trips, donations, membership drives, bake sales and whatever else we can think of! That includes donating as much as you can to the SSFFF!

We had eight very dedicated people at this meeting and plan to do it again with a much larger group of people, more on that later. In the meantime thanks to the guys who took the time today to try and help all of us. The above was my take of the meeting, I look forward to what the others thought.

Once again thanks to T.B. and the others who were there.

P.S. I don't know how Tony sleeps at night with all those acronyms running around in his head:D

hammer4reel

10-03-2009, 08:52 AM

Out of everything that was discussed last night, the clear message was the difference in how much more unity the commercial sector has when trying to sustain the fishery WE all need.
because its their livelyhood, the REACH INTO THEIR POCKETS IMMEDIATLY hire a lawyer and FIGHT for what they feel they should be entitled to.
That us recreational fisherman DONT, yet could be doing it at a MUCH bigger level.
Capt Jimmy Elliot explained how QUICKLY they raise 30 Grand to hire a lawyer.
Thirty boats writing out a check for a grand a piece,allowing their voice to be heard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one expects us to do that,
But we do have a voice in Washington in the RFA, they are willing to fight for us while we SLEEP.
All they need is MEMBERS to allow their voice (OUR VOICE) to be heard LOUDER.
All this CONSTANT fight to save our fisheries for us to enjoy costs MONEY.

with the amount of us that enjoy the Salt, whether for one day a year of MANY days it comes down to one thing.
Most guys dont have the time,, or energy to help so Join the RFA and allow those that CAN carry the ball the STABILITY to do so for YOU.

MANY of us already belong to other groups here in NJ that we feel fight for us, and they also need members to fight for us on LOCAL levels.
But the RFA is the ONLY one fighting for the WHOLE fisheries in Washington where it is needed the most, because thats where the decisions being made against us happen.

I saw ALOT more people came forward the last few days who want to know how to HELP.
Start be throwing the couple bucks to fund the orginazations trying to use REAL science to show where our fisheries are REALLY at.
Change WONT be overnight, but it iS happening, the Announcement that the NMFS data is FATALLY FLAWED is HUGE.
Without the guys that have been fighting hard, this never would have happened.
WE need to back one solid voice YOUR VOICE

IM sure evryone does not agree with everything the RFA does,( I know I havent) but we MUST look at the bigger picture, we can all just bitch on message boards around the country or we can back those that are REALLY fighting for US

.

Life's A Beach

10-03-2009, 08:52 AM

Dave - thanks for setting the meeting up

Thanks to all for coming

Tony (and Jimmy) - thanks for passing on the info on and answering our questions. Some good questions posed and answered. An uninformed fisherman can do more harm than good.

I told Dave I'd help him set up a meeting to invite as many njfishing members/readers to disseminate this information to more people.

Bottom Line - OUR interests are best served by RFA and Save The Summer Flounder Fund; please donate AND please contact both/either organization and volunteer your time. You'll get further informed and they need bodies to man shows.

Bad Science Sucks but it's what is being used unless WE provide Good Science.

One final point; the environmental groups HAVE money and volunteers. We need the same to fight them. And yes, it's a fight if we want to continue to fish.

CaptTB

10-03-2009, 09:18 AM

Thanks for coming last night guys, hope I didn't make your heads explode from all the acronyms I tossed around:D :D

Anyone that knows me knows I have worked hand in hand with many groups over the years, and the RFA almost since it's creation. Last night was not a feel good session for SSFFF, it wasn't a funding drive for RFA, it wasn't an "us vs. them" discussion, etc.

My goal for meeting with you guys last night (and I feel that goal was achieved) was to take a core group of guys that were willing to sit down, learn about our problems (and why those problems exist and what has been and needs to be done to deal with those problems) and see if they were willing to take the next step in getting involved.

We (meaning those groups and individuals who deal with fisheries issues at the council and commission level) need help. The same handful of voices being heard over and over again can sometimes fall on deaf ears.

We also need help in informing the rest of the fishermen out there as to what is happening, and almost as important WHY it is happening.

My thoughts were: Get a handful of guys up to speed on major issues who in turn can go and inform even more guys about those same issues. One guy tells another who tells another etc.

When someone posts a question or makes a comment on a website or starts a conversation on the jetty or at the dock, the more people who have a working knowledge of the issue the more people can explain the issue to that guy or girl. It's the misinformation, the misunderstanding or the simple lack of knowledge of the issues that does much of the damage when it comes to the recreational sector being divided.

People assume too much and typically do not have the time or the inclination to learn more about a subject.

Even some people on here who were debating topics with me stated publicly that they did not even read the responses I had made to them!
Sometimes you need a different voice to get people's attention.

It is my hope that the guys at the meeting will be some of those voices.

Knowing how things work and seeing and hearing those who fight for and against us whenever someone asks me what group they should support,join, whatever I typically give the same response.
Jpoin your local group to help fight those local issues. Join the local chapter of whatever organization seems to be most in line with your beliefs. When it comes to fishing and fisheries management issues that group happens to be the RFA more than any other. Keep in mind, I do not work for RFA, I do not get paid by RFA nor have I ever worked for or been paid by RFA. My statement comes from years of working side by side with this group, watching what they do, hearing what they say, period.

No group or organization is ever going to do what every member wants 100% of the time, it simply is not possible. However, if the group or organization you support is "in-line" with your beliefs more than it is not, to me that's a group worth supporting. When they do something you so not agree with, make sure you let them know. Too often I see people drop from one group or another over a single issue, even though the previous ten issues they have been in sync with one another. Everyone must make their own decision on who to support and who to join. As I said last night, that one year membership due may not seem like much, but when combined with many other people it adds up AND it gives more weight to the group making the argument. When you can knock on a congressman's or Senator's door from MANY states and say "I speak for x amount of YOUR constituents," it means a bit more than a guy from NJ talking to a politician from Mass. or CA. We must act local AND national to accomplish anything, since the rules that govern our fisheries start at the federal or ASMFC level and trickle DOWN to the individual state, not the other way around.

Groups like SSFFF need support for the specific tasks we undertake, the next of which will be coming shortly as we finish paying for the two project we are already doing. People who join a group or organization too often figure "I wrote a check, see you next year." Unfortunately the world in which we live in does not allow it to stop there. Obviously some people can do more, others cannot. That is simply the way it is. In the case of SSFFF we will be knocking on doors and posting messages and going to shows looking for even more money than we have raised to deal with the continuing problems we face. For some, they will have to choose what they support, and that is totally understandable. The well runs dry sooner or later, and too often lately it is sooner rather than later! Nevertheless, while one group fights one battle another group may be fighting a different one, or they may be fighting the same battle but on two different fronts, as has been the case with SSFFF and other groups dealing with Fluke.

All I can say is as we (SSFFF) tke on additional projects we will ask for your help. Any help is appreciated and we totally understand when help is simply not available. In the meantime, get active in whatever way you can and join the group (the membership driven group that needs not just money but "members" to bolster it's standing) that you think best fits your needs.

I currently have devoted the vast majority of my time to SSFFF, and will continue to do so as I believe it is the single best place to put my efforts if I am going to improve the situation with Fluke, and will tell everyone I speak to the same thing. What SSFFF has accomplished to date should be proof positive of their worthiness of your time, effort and continued contributions. At the same time I have been and will continue to run United Boatmen for those in my industry. The only group I hold a membership card from is RFA, so take that for what it's worth.

Enough said, I have to go back to work now!

Thanks again for coming, there will be more to come.

GDubya07

10-03-2009, 11:09 AM

Gentleman

THANK YOU ALL -

Great effort and thank you for putting this together and great post, update and message -

Dale you have my number let me know what I can do - Getting the word out - writing emails - passing out flyers - whatever ???

Lets make THE difference People

G-Out- :cool:

Fin Reaper

10-03-2009, 11:43 AM

shrimpman steve

10-03-2009, 11:51 AM

Thanks guys! Your efforts are appreciated!

I have always meant to join the RFA but for some reason I never did, and I donated to the SSFFF a while ago but havent since so guess what? I Just went online, joined the RFA and made a donation to the SSFFF...thanks for the kick in the ass!

way to go Fin! I myself will join rfa today as well! we need to get the message out that we need money! It is the only way to fight the fight. I am going to get in touch with the RFA and obviously the SSFFF to see what we can do to raise money. I may even get into another bra for the right price:D!

will keep all informed of our plans.

thanks

SMS (more acronyms)

shrimpman steve

10-03-2009, 11:59 AM

here is a link to the RFA, check it out. I do not want to start schilling for orginizations, but this is worth the effort, and please don't forget the SSFFF.

http://www.joinrfa.org/

CaptBob

10-03-2009, 12:20 PM

It was a great idea to schedule the meeting and outstanding of Tony to take the time to give out some correct information and answer questions.

We have many people such as Tony and several organizations such as the RFA, SSFFF, JCAA, Stripers Forever, etc. who are fighting in our interests, all doing a great job.

While I belong and donate to all of the organizations, this is part of our problem, we need a single united front to speak and fight for us, much like the NRA does for gun owners.

We have our resources and funding spread out over a wide area, and at times the organizations that are meant to help us actually can be working against each other.

Just as many interests have learned to focus in a single front, we must do the same.

To quote Ben Franklin:

" We must all hang together, or assuredly, separately, we will all hang"

JoeLongo

10-03-2009, 12:26 PM

way to go Fin! I myself will join rfa today as well! we need to get the message out that we need money! It is the only way to fight the fight. I am going to get in touch with the RFA and obviously the SSFFF to see what we can do to raise money. I may even get into another bra for the right price:D!

will keep all informed of our plans.

thanks

SMS (more acronyms)

NJFishing bake sale? NJFishing calendar would be even better. I am sure members on here wouldnt mind taking some photos:D

dales529

10-03-2009, 12:49 PM

Want to first off say thanks to Capt Tony. When we discussed this back in early Sept there was never any hesitance on his part and it just took a couple of weeks to get a date together that met our schedules. Given everything he is involved with that was no EASY task on his part. Also, Tony feel free to correct anything below if I misunderstood or make an incorrect statement. It was a lot to absorb years of yours, RFA and SSFFF's work in 3 hours.

Learned from the meeting that there is MUCH to learn but came out extremely comfortable that the RFA and SSFFF are groups that every fishermen NEEDS to be directly involved with. Rest assured NO ONE is sitting back and getting "fat" on your dues. For that matter NO ONE even takes a dime for all their efforts which consists of Time, travel to meetings across the eastern seaboard, phone calls, e-mails, conferences, trade shows etc etc.

The acronyms mentioned in todays posts are the huge number of groups, councils, proposals etc that must be dealt with on every level but the real work is done on the federal level which is why the RFA is the group to direct our immediate attention. They have the people in place to speak for us on that level.

The biggest issue and the fight these 2 groups put out for US is trying to get the DATA and the CORRECT Data in front of the councils that ultimately decide our fate. Getting them to listen to it is another front they work on for US. The science is flawed as we all know and can complain till doomsday but to present better science and get them to listen takes Time, money and a lobby group such as the RFA and SSFFF.
They are getting results!!!
An SSFFF Example: The recent study by Dr Maunder proved that the fluke stock is NOT 50% rebuilt as thought but 72% REBUILT. Thats a huge success. The trick seems to be to get these agencies the right data so that the stock assessments are correct and then the quotas can be set properly. If the quotas are not set properly Based on "the best available science" then all else goes down the same path. Mis-information that leads to closures or regs that have no basis other than the methods that created them.

RFA constantly lobbys for real numbers and believe it or not without their recent effort / sucesses we could be in an even worse situation. It was agreed to get some more information out to US fishermen so You can literally see the results, updates etc more often. When you join the RFA you will get the newsletters etc.

Imagine if these groups had the multitude of NJ Fishermen behind them. It sure would make some on the Fed Level take some additional interest in their message instead of OH NO here comes Tony Bogan or here comes the RFA again. As Dan posted that Capt Jimmy stated when the commercial guys need money they ask and recieve. So lets say 1000 of us join RFA, thats $35,000 immediately at ONLY $35.00 ea for a whole year membership.
OR we keep going at the current pace where 10 people or industries have to donate $3500 ea. to raise the same $$. Thats just an analogy and hypothetical numbers but you get the idea and its probably not too far off the mark.

Thanks also to Steve, Leif, Dan, Henry, Mike, capt jimmy etc for attending. great group of guys willing to give up a Friday night, drive up to 2 hours, get home late, probably get yelled at etc etc. Its going to take all of that and more to help our cause.

More to come soon on a larger scale meeting.

shrimpman steve

10-03-2009, 01:18 PM

Two hours for me, two minutes for LAB! damn I live too far away from the water:)

not to mention I gave up my friday night card game

TurboDan

10-03-2009, 03:05 PM

Sounds like a good meeting. And Shrimpman - thanks for the PM, unfortunately I didn't get it until later on yesterday as I was (ironically) out fishing for most of the day. Hopefully there will be some more meetings scheduled in the near future to continue to get the word out.

And as far as the RFA support, it IS worth it. Let me tell you that as a reporter, it's usually hell to call an organization and get straight, good facts. Whenever I've called RFA, Jim Donofrio himself is right there to answer questions, and he knows the answers right off the top of his head. There's no "call back later" or "we'll have to look that up for you" type of thing. Jim and the guys over there are REALLY on the ball and are not afraid to speak their minds when it comes to fighting for recreational anglers. They're there full-time, every day, and always traveling between NJ and DC.

Little old man

10-03-2009, 03:25 PM

Thanks again for the info guys. I think it is absolutely imperative to keep everyone informed and provide them with the best way to help out. Since i read the posts this morning, i purchased a 3-year memebership to the RFA. I also intend on donating to the Summer Flounder group after the next pay-period. I am going to spread the word about the importance of keeping these organizations funded and push my peeps to join/donate as well. Please keep providing as much info as possible b/c i really feel the donations will increase if people are more informed.

Leif

10-03-2009, 06:42 PM

Well, Steve, Mike, Dan, Dave and Tony did a great job summing up the meeting so I won't elaborate.

I did want to thank Dave for putting it together and having the opportunity to participate. Thanks to Capt. Jimmy for making the time to come to the meeting and providing useful information and insight as well from both the
recreational and comercial side.

Now is the time to do something. The RFA and SSFFF have clearly made a difference and the varying "acromyms" are starting to listen and take notice, but it is only the begining.

After doing my own research and hearing Tony Bogan speak, I have complete confidence in the RFA, SSFFF and their agenda.

http://www.joinrfa.org/

http://www.ssfff.net/

I will continue to posts the updates that I receive from the RFA for those who have not joined yet. Since I have started reading the RFA press releases and updates I have a better understanding of how things work/don't work with respect to the fisheries.

Thanks,

Leif

jakesdad

10-03-2009, 07:51 PM

Dave, thanks for setting the meeting up. Tony, if we had more like you, we would be in front of the process, as opposed to chasing it.
Many different items were brought up as everyone else has said. We as a group need to continue to invest in our future, SSFFF, RFA, or there won't be a fishing future.
Much has already been done, much is in process, much more on the drawing table. All this takes money, I for one having helped at previous shows know how hard it is to raise money, but if we don't continue they will win. We need to become more educated, and more proactive to insure our future as fisherman.
Once again thanks to Capt. T.B., Capt. Jimmy, and the rest who spent the time to help get the education process started.

Henry

Life's A Beach

10-03-2009, 09:33 PM

Really appreciate all the hard work guys... unfortunatley until something good comes out of any of these lobbyists and other groups i will keep my money in my pocket!!

i have a ton of respect for everyone really trying but not gonig to dump my money into someone elses pocket and reep no benefits..

The long run and the long term is a good sign... but nothing has been done in the present..

dont take this the wrong way i am not being a DOU$#E just want to put my mind into the discussion..

and shrimpy... yo know where i stnd and i still luv ya buddy!!

oh and people biotch about the government burning money like it is giong out of style.. how much money has the RFA taken from the public? wish i was an attorrney or lobbysist because i would sure as shizzle be on their payroll if i could!!

I understand what you're saying sportfishing but sometimes you gotta trust someone. I was asked today "why should I trust RFA when they've been around for 15 years and what have WE gotten FOR US in that time.........fluke limits get tougher with shorter seasons and smaller limits every year, sea bass limits/size tougher...............flounder GONE." I wish I had the answer for that person but I don't.

jakesdad

10-03-2009, 09:37 PM

That's the problem in a nutshell, if you just want to sit back and let someone else do it fine, but don't bitch when it doesn't get done. Tony and the rest of SSFFF take nothing, they pay for all their travel and expenses, Oh and by the way, Tony hasn't run a fishing boat for almost 20 years. He is doing it because he realizes the importance to everyone around him, now and in the future. All these people can only do so much, after that we must hire professionals that know how to work within the system, so that we can make a difference.

Fin Reaper

10-03-2009, 10:05 PM

The profession I'm in has an org. looking out for it's best interests and what we have found is it all comes down to two things.
1) MONEY. fighting takes money, the more you have the better you can fight to make the changes that benefit you.
2) MEMBERSHIP, the more members you have the more seriously you are taken. You can have the best cause in the world but if you only have a few members....well that isnt going to add up to very many votes come election time is it.
Maybe the RFA has done the best it can with the money and membership it previously had BUT if we add our numbers to theirs more can be accomplished...to me it's worth a try.

CaptTB

10-04-2009, 05:52 AM

I understand what you're saying sportfishing but sometimes you gotta trust someone. I was asked today "why should I trust RFA when they've been around for 15 years and what have WE gotten FOR US in that time.........fluke limits get tougher with shorter seasons and smaller limits every year, sea bass limits/size tougher...............flounder GONE." I wish I had the answer for that person but I don't.
LAB, that's an easy answer. You have 1 or 2 bluefin per boat...... instead of ZERO for the past ten years.

You have had some of the best Fluke regs in the NE for the past 5 years, instead of next to nothing.

I guess my point is that United Boatmen, RFA, JCAA and a handful of individuals have been fighting this fight for years. Had these people and groups not been there you have no idea how bad things would be right now. We defeated paybacks for YEARS. You would cringe at the things that the enviros wanted in the MSA that they successfully argued to have removed.

The list goes on, but I refuse to get into a "what have you done for me lately" argument. (not that you were arguing LAB)

I guess the way I look at it is for the past decade we have all collectively worked our asses off fighting to stay in business, to get some fair shakes, to stop the a holes from simply taking over.

What exactly has sportfishingusa done?

And, who would you rather support........him? Or, those who have actually been fighting without any help from him?

I am picking on him on purpose since he gave the same old standard excuse not to do anything that I have heard for years. I think he copied and pasted it from threads I read on sites that don't even exist anymore. If I had a dime for every time someone used that one as a justification not to do anything I wouldn't need to do this, I'd have plenty of cash! I do understand what he means, I just don't agree with the sentiment to do nothing because those fighting the fight haven't achieved something he deems worthy, when he hasn't bothered to fight the fight himself and never considered what things would be like if there hadn't been a fight all these years.

That's all, it is not personal, and I mean that sportfishingusa. You are not guilty of anything that a million other guys haven't already done...... nothing.

Please do not take this as a personal attack, I am merely pointing out what has been happening since day one and reacting to the fact that it still goes on.

CaptTB

10-04-2009, 08:27 AM

Standing down at the boat this morning and then driving home after the boat just left I was thinking about this thread, the meeting we just had, the comments made and the responses I gave.

If my previous comments seem a bit harsh that's because I have personally reached a point where I no longer see the advantage to treating these topics with kid gloves. Sure, reasonable well thought out responses are important, but my emotion needs to start coming through just a bit more than it has in the past (those that know me and have heard me speak may find that hard to believe!)

Too long have I witnessed the apathy of fishermen and business owners (the party/charterboat sector has been it's own worst enemy for decades as has the tackle industry) and listened to the numerous reasons people have given to not get involved. Some legitimate, some just excuses.

To those who ask "what have "they" done for me?" My response is simple: Why are you asking me on a message board? Call them up and ask them yourself! Then, you can make your decision to support or not based on the information straight from the horse's mouth, not what you read on a message board on the internet. Find out what has been done and what is being done, then decide from there if this group or that group is worthy of your hard earned dollar.

Let me say this:

It is your dollar, you should spend it where you see fit and no one else can tell you where to spend it. We can tell you where we THINK you should spend it, but in the end it is, afterall, your dollar.

I have watched the same groups (several I mentioned previously like RFA and JCAA and UB) fight these fights for years. Sometimes we won, sometimes we lost, sometimes we simply fought a delaying action because that's what we could do. Sometimes the "victories" were losing less than we could have instead of "winning" something concrete.

These things were accomplished (or not accomplished in some cases) with but a fraction of a fraction of the anglers out there donating money and even fewer donating time. From my vantage point, one that has given me a front row view of the activities since the end of the 80's when the first bluefish meetings took place in Philadelphia where the 10 fish limit was set, I cannot help but think about what could have been accomplished if we had even 1% of the anglers in this country joining up and donating money.

That's right, less than 1% are actually involved. If a NJ group had even 10% of the anglers just in the state of NJ as members they'd have triple or quadruple the number of members they currently have FROM THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!

To me those numbers speak VOLUMES as to what has been accomplished with so little support.

That is where my comments come from. From my first hand experience of the devotion of some, and the apathy of MILLIONS.

So, please take my comments for what they are worth, nothing more than my personal experience and opinion being expressed the only way I know how.

Truthfully.

Reelron

10-04-2009, 09:03 AM

I was trying to stay out of this one but I have to say this, even it is a little redundant.

It is kind of like living in a town with a low crime rate and having someone say, "Why do we need a Police Department? We don't have any crime." You can't explain to them that there is no way to measure what could have been if the police weren't there.

I left the RFA a few years ago, for personel reasons and I was reluctant to supposrt the SSFFF as I believed there were other organizations fighting the same fisht. However, over the past two years I have come to realize that both of these organizations are doing what needs to be done and I have "come back into the fold" so to speak. I have attended recent meetings and I have seen the lack of attendence on the part of individual anglers and I have learned that we need these groups, the JCAA and the NJOA,to stand up and make it clear that they speak for thousands of angry anglers, not just hundreds.

Quite honestly, I think these threads just are a diversion from the task at hand, let's get on with it gentlemen!

howarda780

10-04-2009, 09:55 AM

The Pareto Principle:

20% of the people do 80% of the work.

dales529

10-04-2009, 10:16 AM

Really appreciate all the hard work guys... unfortunatley until something good comes out of any of these lobbyists and other groups i will keep my money in my pocket!!

i have a ton of respect for everyone really trying but not gonig to dump my money into someone elses pocket and reep no benefits..

The long run and the long term is a good sign... but nothing has been done in the present..

dont take this the wrong way i am not being a DOU$#E just want to put my mind into the discussion..

and shrimpy... yo know where i stnd and i still luv ya buddy!!
oh and people biotch about the government burning money like it is giong out of style.. how much money has the RFA taken from the public? wish i was an attorrney or lobbysist because i would sure as shizzle be on their payroll if i could!!

Sport,
You are entitled to your opinion and most certainly entitled to do what you want with your money. Having fished with you and shared information etc in posts I have to admit this post took me by suprise.
I have to call you out on this, its exactly the reason we called the meeting , the first of many I hope to become more educated about these groups and the "systems" they work under. YOU have already reaped benefits. Where did you come up with your information???? You are welcome to attend the next meeting but please have some "facts" to back up your statements. Otherwise congratulations on your membership in the do NOTHING club, just wish your club would do exactly that NOTHING rather than detract from the cause.

Seriously nothing personal here and I respect your right to an opinion but I hope you are called out on this by hundreds of fishermen who YOU will reap benefits from on OUR dime.

cool hand fluke

10-04-2009, 10:32 AM

Capt TB and Others who met Friday night:

Thank you for representing OUR interests. I am willing to help spread the message and attend next meeting(s) and do volunteer work in whatever capacity I can help as things develop.

Leif:

Thanks for the link to the SSFFF - I just donated using the electronic link option - very EASY to use....I also appreciate your updates helping inform us on the issues.

I look forward to working with all of my fellow anglers! Al

sportfishingusa

10-04-2009, 10:42 AM

LAB, that's an easy answer. You have 1 or 2 bluefin per boat...... instead of ZERO for the past ten years.

You have had some of the best Fluke regs in the NE for the past 5 years, instead of next to nothing.

I guess my point is that United Boatmen, RFA, JCAA and a handful of individuals have been fighting this fight for years. Had these people and groups not been there you have no idea how bad things would be right now. We defeated paybacks for YEARS. You would cringe at the things that the enviros wanted in the MSA that they successfully argued to have removed.

The list goes on, but I refuse to get into a "what have you done for me lately" argument. (not that you were arguing LAB)

I guess the way I look at it is for the past decade we have all collectively worked our asses off fighting to stay in business, to get some fair shakes, to stop the a holes from simply taking over.

What exactly has sportfishingusa done?

And, who would you rather support........him? Or, those who have actually been fighting without any help from him?

I am picking on him on purpose since he gave the same old standard excuse not to do anything that I have heard for years. I think he copied and pasted it from threads I read on sites that don't even exist anymore. If I had a dime for every time someone used that one as a justification not to do anything I wouldn't need to do this, I'd have plenty of cash! I do understand what he means, I just don't agree with the sentiment to do nothing because those fighting the fight haven't achieved something he deems worthy, when he hasn't bothered to fight the fight himself and never considered what things would be like if there hadn't been a fight all these years.

That's all, it is not personal, and I mean that sportfishingusa. You are not guilty of anything that a million other guys haven't already done...... nothing.

Please do not take this as a personal attack, I am merely pointing out what has been happening since day one and reacting to the fact that it still goes on.

do not take it personal at all. I have donated and know many who have and still do donate and join specific groups, jcaa,rfa, ssfff, and others alike.

I am not BASHING ANYONE... (i do hope sal cursi chokes and dies on a pretzel at a meeting) but i appreciate everything everyone has done.. I read the news and get e-newsletters and see what is going on..

But i have also called and asked for a breakdown on the money.. i dont really care who gets lined or uses the money.. but i want to know where it is all going.

Is it my business? not really.. but as a supporter and them being a 501 non profit i would assume it would be public knowledge but i have not seen anything available..

I see the bluefin situation.. 1-2 per boat instead of zero.. but if it was zero for a while what would it be in the next 2-3 years? 3-5 a boat.... or still stay at zero?

The squeeze they are putting on the rec guys and the party/charter boats is hurting everyone and it is not good... But we need to choose our fights.. I think that the limits are somewhat crazy but i also somewhat agreee and dont find that sending 10000 letters is going to do anything.. i do think that proving them scientifically wrong would be the answer... And i think that is another way to start..

sportfishingusa

10-04-2009, 10:47 AM

CaptTB

10-04-2009, 11:14 AM

do not take it personal at all. I have donated and know many who have and still do donate and join specific groups, jcaa,rfa, ssfff, and others alike.

I am not BASHING ANYONE... (i do hope sal cursi chokes and dies on a pretzel at a meeting) but i appreciate everything everyone has done.. I read the news and get e-newsletters and see what is going on..

But i have also called and asked for a breakdown on the money.. i dont really care who gets lined or uses the money.. but i want to know where it is all going.

Is it my business? not really.. but as a supporter and them being a 501 non profit i would assume it would be public knowledge but i have not seen anything available..

I see the bluefin situation.. 1-2 per boat instead of zero.. but if it was zero for a while what would it be in the next 2-3 years? 3-5 a boat.... or still stay at zero?

The squeeze they are putting on the rec guys and the party/charter boats is hurting everyone and it is not good... But we need to choose our fights.. I think that the limits are somewhat crazy but i also somewhat agreee and dont find that sending 10000 letters is going to do anything.. i do think that proving them scientifically wrong would be the answer... And i think that is another way to start..

Thanks, I really was not trying to start $hit. My second post (the one I had hoped you would quote) was to try and give you and others a better understanding of where I am coming from.

Hopefully, I succeeded.

Thanks again for your response.

sportfishingusa

10-04-2009, 12:41 PM

Thanks, I really was not trying to start $hit. My second post (the one I had hoped you would quote) was to try and give you and others a better understanding of where I am coming from.

Hopefully, I succeeded.

Thanks again for your response.

tony,

you have always come across straight and foward to me and i completeluy understand 100 percent.. i would love to be more active in the process along with yourself and any others... i would also like to speak with you in depth and understand a little more of the issues at hand that you are speaking of and also speak about the solutions we can come up with!

if you get the time and can pm me your number or maybe a time we can meet and chat it would be great... i am very local to you and i am more then willing to jump on board!

like i said.. sending money to me is not the solution.. it helps.. but i am more about being hands on and look foward to what we could possibly do TOGETHER in the future coming!

thanks again tony for being so level headed and understanding what each of us feel and taking that into consideration with each and every answer you have posted!!

internet forumns are great forinformation but are no way the best form of communicated such important intel!

Thanks again tony and i look foward to meeting you some time in the near future as i have not seen or fished with you for a long long time.

PBangler

10-04-2009, 01:25 PM

Hi all … my husband Don & I are long time supporters of the party boat industry as well as readers of this terrific website. I decided to put my past differences aside with the RFA and just rejoined, thanks to reading many of the posts within this thread. Rejoining was easy with PayPal and a $35 fee to join for a year was minimal compared to what we spend on fishing per year.

Money is always important, but as was already stated “the number of memberships” in your organization is also important when going to Washington to lobby. It’s not about which administration is in office, because the last reauthorization of the Magnuson Stevens Act (MSA) took place in 2006 under a Republican President, with both chambers of Congress having a Republican majority.

It is the result of huge amounts of monies spent by environmental groups to convince the masses in this country, no matter which side of the aisle, the sky is falling with all of our fisheries. Some of the new laws under the latest reauthorization of the MSA, intended to micro-manage both commercial and recreational fishing, will ultimately lead to the destruction of the small mom & pop industries within both sectors, changing out precious few remaining “seaport” waterfront landscapes forever.

I for one love eating at the Shrimp Box and looking at all the boats, both commercial and recreational surrounding it. How sad it would be if it all were replaced with waterfront condos. This is not a Jersey nor a Black Sea Bass closure problem, but a small taste of a nationwide tsunami about to hit our coastlines. It needs to be stopped now and it will take a nationwide organization to get it done. To me the RFA fits the bill.

I’ll get off the soapbox now – thanks for listening and more importantly thanks for starting the momentum going!

Kathy

shrimpman steve

10-05-2009, 11:32 AM

Sport,
I consider you a friend and respect your opinion even though I disagree. I attended the meeting and very much respect Tony B., he has been doing this for many years. As I stated publicly, I wanted protests and publicity. After speaking with Tony and Jimmy I have shifted my focus. What we need is money and membership, this is what keeps the commercial fleet in the forefront. Every one need to do what they feel is best, but I think it is time to join the rfa and suppoert the ssfff in large numbers. I will be taking a few days to figure out some kind of fundraising and membership drives for both orinizations. I have a call into capt Adam and am waiting to hear what he has to say about the RFA. In the meantime you must do what you feel is right and I must work to change your mind:D. We have a lot of members on this site and if we could get a large percentage to get on board who knows what can happen.

I will be in touch with dales shortly to get his ideas on said fundraisers and membership drives. With numbers, anything is possible.

PS Thanks to all who have already joined and contributed due to this one thread!

Wreckfish

10-05-2009, 12:03 PM

I just joined. Thanks for the nudge.
Wreckfish

TurboDan

10-05-2009, 01:35 PM

It’s not about which administration is in office, because the last reauthorization of the Magnuson Stevens Act (MSA) took place in 2006 under a Republican President, with both chambers of Congress having a Republican majority.

It is the result of huge amounts of monies spent by environmental groups to convince the masses in this country, no matter which side of the aisle, the sky is falling with all of our fisheries.

True, to an extent. I'll get political for a minute - Obama has made the situation much, much worse by appointing Lubchenko to head up the NOAA. Now, all of the regional commissions (that vote on things like closures, etc.) are being packed with environmentalists and Obama is now proposing a larger council to vote on ocean policy initiatives, which if taken over by enviro-whackos, will be absolutely horrible for anglers. This administration is an absolute disgrace in terms of appointing the most radical, outright despicable people to the highest positions of influence in government. Google "Cass Sunstein" to learn about the new "Regulatory Czar" who has argued that eating meat should be illegal, hunting should be illegal and animals should have the right to sue in court with human representation.

That said, the MSA reauthorization went through because some congressman from the midwest has no concern over marine fisheries, his constituents don't care about it, and he votes to do the simple thing which is to just reauthorize it. On the opposite end as Obama, we luckily have two Democrats in NJ who are fighting for us - Pallone and Adler. Our "conservative" Republican, Chris Smith, hasn't even bothered to sign on as a co-sponsor of Pallone's bill.

So while I do agree that it's not a totally partisan issue, any administration that had a campaign bankrolled and supported heavily by the environmental lobby is not to be trusted.

PBangler

10-05-2009, 03:29 PM

Dan,

I hear what you're saying. Another argument could probably be made that the MSA reauthorization would have been far worse had it passed under a Democratic majority in Washington. I guess my point was people are spending a lot of time thinking if the Republican's were in, we'd be home free and that just isn't the case. Unfortunately, enough legislation was passed in the last reauthorization to cause tremendous damage and this can’t be blamed on Obama.

Had they (the environmentalists) not been appointed, they would have controlled the process (via the new legislation) anyway by simply taking the new MSA “marching orders to NMFS” to court if the councils didn’t comply. That’s been their MO to date.

To me the real problem is how successful the Enviro campaign to convince the masses that all US fisheries are doomed due to overfishing (i.e. Worm study, etc.) has been. Just ask people who don’t fish in this state how our fisheries are doing and most will say they're in trouble. It doesn’t matter whether they’re dems or reps, it’s what they believe. And if that sentiment is within our own state, it’s surely a held belief by many across the country.

Heck, my husband’s own family, when I missed a get together because of attending a fisheries management meeting, asked which side is she on, killing the fish or saving the fish … it never dawned on them that I could be for both!

TurboDan

10-05-2009, 07:44 PM

To me the real problem is how successful the Enviro campaign to convince the masses that all US fisheries are doomed due to overfishing (i.e. Worm study, etc.) has been. Just ask people who don’t fish in this state how our fisheries are doing and most will say they're in trouble. It doesn’t matter whether they’re dems or reps, it’s what they believe. And if that sentiment is within our own state, it’s surely a held belief by many across the country.

Very, very true. That comes from the use of the word "overfishing," which is simply a legal term and not a scientific one. I rarely (if ever) use it in the magazine I publish, and I wish the others, as well as newspapers, would follow my lead.

It's a very common tactic used by enviros on a host of issues. The air is bad, the water is bad, we'll be wiped off the map in 15 years thanks to global warming. It's all smoke and mirrors to get people in a tizzy while they get their very anti-progress agenda passed quietly through the legislature so politicians can advertise on TV that they are "committed to protecting our environment." Republicans are just weasles on the issue while Democrats are often far more sinister, using enviro-hysteria to create new streams of tax revenue to promote their social agenda. See: cap and trade.

I was talking to someone recently who said "there are no flounder out there anymore." I tried to educate the fellow, he didn't believe me. :mad:

shrimpman steve

10-05-2009, 08:38 PM

sportfishingusa

10-05-2009, 09:04 PM

Here is the difference between "overfishing" and "overfished" as explained by T.B. at our meeting. I hope I get this right

Overfishing-If you go over the quota by one fish or one pound, it is considered "overfishing"

Overfished- the more serious of the terms, is when fishing overtakes the ability of the stock to self sustain itself.

I hope I got that right.

you got it right steve.. my original post came out a little construed and you know where i stand from our previous conversations...

I am all FOR AND I AM ALL ABOUT WORKING TOGETHER TO GET IT DONE... i dont feel that just sending money is getting it done.. i think everyone needs to do both.. send, join, donate, and be involved..

You say masses of members are the answer.. but no matter how many people are "members" i do not FEEL IMHO that its enough.. we need letter send (which i have done) and we need people to meetings and showing like the commercial guys!!

LETS MAKE CHANGE.. I AM NOT ONE TO SIT BACK AND TAKE IT IN THE PIPES.. I WANT CCHANGE AND I WANT TO BE A PART OF IT.. TO ME PEOPLE JUST JOINING AND SITTING BACK ARE JUST AS BAD AS THOSE WHO DONT WANT TO BE INVOLVED... ONCE AGAIN IMHO!!

SO LETS GETS THIS BATTLE/WAR STARTED!! IM IN COLONEL TONY, SARGEANT STEVE, AND ADMIRAL DALES!! POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!

CaptTB

10-05-2009, 10:30 PM

SO LETS GETS THIS BATTLE/WAR STARTED!! IM IN COLONEL TONY, SARGEANT STEVE, AND ADMIRAL DALES!! POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!

Your mission, should you choose to accept it.......
http://images.cnhi.zope.net/images_sizedimage_253224047/med
Patricia Kurkul, regional administrator of National Marine Fisheries Service

This is one of the main people that we need to educate. She scoffed at our comments on Fluke....she was wrong. She scoffed at our comments on Porgies....she was wrong. She scoffed at our comments on Sea Bass.....she was wrong. She scoffed at our comments on MRFSS.....she was totally wrong.

We have been proven right so many times despite her best efforts to squash any comments contrary to the "best available" data it's pathetic.

It's a shame she still holds onto her job. Never a more closed minded person have I met.

Leif

10-05-2009, 10:50 PM

Kurkul admitted data errors in 2007

By Richard Gaines
Staff Writer

Two years before the National Marine Fisheries Service acknowledged widespread mistakes in catch histories it calculates that will determine groundfish earnings in the coming New England catch share/sector-based fishing system, the regional administrator admitted the data assembling system was a mess.

Patricia Kurkul, regional administrator of NMFS, said responsibility for the errors is "shared" by the agency and "the fishing industry."

In a July 12, 2007, letter to Daniel Furlong, executive director of the Mid-Atlantic Fishery Management Council, which is based in Dover, Del., Kurkul wrote that "we strive for maintaining information that is an accurate record of an individual fishing activity in federally regulated fisheries.

"However," she said, "given the amount of data we receive and process each year, currently exceeding 1 million records, errors do occur on both the reporting side by the fishing industry and on processing the reports submitted.

"The responsibility for ensuring that we do have this information rests on both parties," Kurkul wrote.

The region she administrators runs from the Canadian border through the Carolinas.

"How does one build a house without a foundation?" Furlong wrote in an e-mail to the Times. "When it comes to catch shares and one's livelihood, it behooves us all to have accurate and verifiable records."

But he said "unless the harvesting sector initiates its own quality control process to verify the NMFS records, it will be held hostage, and therefore bound and accountable to the records NMFS has on file."

The importance of catch histories and accurate calculations has been highlighted by the transition into sectors and catch shares. The New England groundfishery will be split into two different business models next May — the sectors, which are fishing cooperatives, will work off catch shares whose size is related to catch histories. The rest of the fishermen who have decided against joining a sector will fish under modified effort controls and days at sea.

The entire fishery currently is governed by effort controls.

Faulty records have also been cited as triggering erroneous prosecutions of fishermen for violating their catch quotas or days at sea.

The Inspector General of the Department of Commerce, the parent agency of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration which includes NMFS, has been investigating NMFS' enforcement practices since the start of summer.

Kurkul said she understood that the conversion of fisheries into "Limited Access Privilege Programs," such as the catch share sector model to be instituted for groundfish in 2010 in New England, requires "accurate accountings of each vessel's landings history."

The New England Fishery Management Council last June voted to use a 10-year history of catches, starting in 1996, to determine individual catch shares — the percentage of the total allowable catch for the fishery granted as a limited access privilege.

Kurkul's spokeswoman Maggie Mooney-Seus has said the agency cannot process the complaints and fix the errors in time for the start of sector fishing via catch shares next May. But she said the service will fix mistakes for 2011 that are noted in writing to NMFS by Oct. 31.

Erroneous computations of catch histories will produce erroneous grants of catch share — and because of the decision to split the total allowable catch, for each loser there will be a winner.

In recent days, many New England fishermen have concluded that the catch histories that were distributed by Kurkul's statisticians were dramatically off, shorting some by hundreds of thousands of pounds of fish landed and certified by the dealer sales slips.

Their complaints added to those of scallopers in a lawsuit against NMFS which cited a set of minutes of a NMFS committee meeting from March 2006 where members conceded "continuously discovering ... many errors in vessel trip reports and dealer data-sets" that were considered beyond NMFS ability to reconcile or fix.

Leif

10-05-2009, 11:04 PM

By the way. We don't need any name calling. There are extremists on both ends of the spectrum. It just makes us look bad.

Sport. Give it up. Please.

They got the guns but we got the numbers. Gonna win, yeah were taking over!

Leif

shrimpman steve

10-05-2009, 11:10 PM

If tony can get us the address for Kurkel, maybe we should start a letter campaign. She admits using faulty stats, lets put her feet to the fire!

TurboDan

10-06-2009, 12:25 AM

Your mission, should you choose to accept it.......
http://images.cnhi.zope.net/images_sizedimage_253224047/med
Patricia Kurkul, regional administrator of National Marine Fisheries Service

This is one of the main people that we need to educate. She scoffed at our comments on Fluke....she was wrong. She scoffed at our comments on Porgies....she was wrong. She scoffed at our comments on Sea Bass.....she was wrong. She scoffed at our comments on MRFSS.....she was totally wrong.

We have been proven right so many times despite her best efforts to squash any comments contrary to the "best available" data it's pathetic.

It's a shame she still holds onto her job. Never a more closed minded person have I met.

I listened to this woman for about five minutes during the ASMFC conference call when they first were discussing closing sea bass and wanted to throw my cell phone out the window. What she was saying was beyond insane, and she was the one who brought up the "threat" of a federal closure when her resolution about closing sea bass fishing back then got voted down.

For anyone who'd like to take up the mission:

Patricia Kurkul
NORTHEAST REGION, NMFS
Regional Administrator, NE Region
978-281-9250
pat.kurkul@noaa.gov

shrimpman steve

10-06-2009, 06:46 AM

OK guys, we have a name, an email address and a postal address. Lets start hammering her, keep it civil! lets get to work.

steve

Reelron

10-06-2009, 08:06 AM

You might find some points in this article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/saltwater/columns/story?columnist=gatley_chris&id=4533383

howarda780

10-06-2009, 08:07 AM

Tony:

Do you have some key points that we should target in these letters? Or should we just send letters in our own words and how this shut down effects each one of us?

Reelron

10-06-2009, 09:05 AM

You might find some points in this article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/saltwater/columns/story?columnist=gatley_chris&id=4533383

CaptTB

10-06-2009, 09:23 AM

Tony:

Do you have some key points that we should target in these letters? Or should we just send letters in our own words and how this shut down effects each one of us?

What reelron said! Look at the sea bass closure thread and read Adam's description of the problem. Knowing that there is better data to be used that was not, ask Ms. Kurkul why she would not vote in favor of having the SSC look at that data and incorporate it into their quota recommendation.

Ask Pat why she insists on trying to find new and creative ways to screw the fishermen with MRFSS data. Now they want to use it as a real-time monitoring system??

Is she that attached to MRFSS that she has to try and drain every last ounce of pain out of it before it is replaced?

Ask her why she continues to ignore the "anecdotal" and industry data provided her to refute MRFSS and other claims when even the NRC review of MRFSS clearly states that such data should be used to validate or invalidate the "best available" data NMFS uses.

How's that for a stream of conscious ramble huh?

JonDevin

10-06-2009, 09:58 AM

Y'know sometimes it's very tough to determine 'tone' when reading people's posts.

Leif, I believe sportfishingusa was not calling names, but was more like rallying the troops by giving them nicknames.... I could be wrong, but based on all of his posts, I think that's all there is there.

Sport, while I agree that it is important for people to be as active as possible, it's just not reality for some folks, given scarcity of time, money and understanding. With that said, a successful fight will consist of a broad spectrum of activity from just joining as a member, through donating more than just a membership fee, all the way up through partaking in events and lobbies. If all people could do is be a member, so be it. Those numbers help when politicians evaluate sentiment. By the way, I commend you on reaching out directly to Capt. Bob... I shall bring you a red bull and vodka on the 24th, but not sure Jim/Bill will allow the vodka on board :)

sportfishingusa

10-06-2009, 10:16 AM

hookspiter

10-06-2009, 03:14 PM

hookspiter

10-06-2009, 04:12 PM

dales529

10-06-2009, 07:22 PM

I didn't join for one good reason

Fighting the comms will not solve the problem

We both have the same interest and that should be to save the fishing weather comm or rec.

The only true records of fish being caught is by the comm fisherman as they are regulated by NOAA. They have to have to get permission to go out and must leave within 48hrs. They also must have BoaTrax on their and pay for the servicce so they can be monitored.

No I am not a comm fisherman butI think if we are to share the ocean resources we should work together to save the fish.

The people on the board, who are making the decissions are not fisherman.

Just my thoughts

Thanks for posting. Please do NOT take this personally its just an example and I dont want to use Sports posts again. Another key element of the meeting as this thread shows is the importance of sending a clear and informed message. Maybe all need to read the posts more slowly and thoroughly (myself included) as I think the online message system sometimes creates an avenue for re-active and quick response. Most of this thread is informative and point on and I know I will be using it for reference going forward.

No where is it being suggested from our meeting that this is a fight between the commercial and recreational fishermen. While there are varying opinions and debate, the sole purpose of the recreational fight is for recreational fishermen and the battle is with the NOAA, NMFS, SSC etc, at the FEDERAL Level to get flexibility in the Magnuson Stevens Act and fight for real science / data recording so that stock assesments and quotas are set properly. The best way to accomplish that in our opinion is to join up with the RFA who has been fighting for this for years and has a voice at the federal level. It has also NOT been stated from the meeting that MONEY is the sole answer, That LETTERS, E_MAILS are the sole answer or that JOINING the RFA is the sole answer.

The message is that a large "membership" of fishermen willing to get involved and act to fight against what is being handed down to us unfairly is required. To accomplish that goal we need to be more educated on what has been done, what can be done and where to place a concerted effort. All that is asked is do what you can, when you can and where you can in a constructive, informed manner.