Striped Bass Closures in Nov and Dec

[Gerry Zagorski]

Let’s say for a minute you believe the numbers and science, although we and they know it’s full of assumptions not facts. It’s the best available science we have so if it’s indicating fishery is or has a strong possibility of being in trouble, we all need to suck it up and share in the pain of a 14% reduction.

My issues is with closing the fishery down in Nov and Dec here in NJ is way over the top and does not equally distribute the pain since these have historically been the best months to fish. You close down say Massachusetts for the same 2 months and they don’t feel the same pain we do because the fish are not there in those months. In my opinion making blanket decisions like this is the easy and lazy way for them to get the 14%.

How about letting the each of the states decide how they want get to their share of the 14% by choosing the closure dates. Maybe some of them would choose to close down their commercial fishery like NJ did to get to part of it. Not sure what this would mean for NJ regs but whatever it is, it makes more sense for these decisions be made closer to the people they effect.

I could go on here forever but suffices to say, closing us down in Nov and Dec is ridiculous and can’t even believe it was suggested as an option. The basis of my comments to the ASFMC is all states should feel the same pain and have a say in how they choose to get to their 14%.

Please send your comments via email to comments@asmfc.org by 12/10.

[Capt Derek Fisher Price 3]

You are 100% correct. After talking to several people, none of their "science" has come from the for-hire var's that have to be filled out daily. They are basing everything on recreational surveys. Its a complete joke. As you said, this closure will not so much effect any boats north of Montauk or say south of Ocean County, as the bio mass of fish is historically off long island/ north and central jersey.

[captbogan]

Let’s say for a minute you believe the numbers and science, although we and they know it’s full of assumptions not facts. It’s the best available science we have so if it’s indicating fishery is or has a strong possibility of being in trouble, we all need to suck it up and share in the pain of a 14% reduction.

My issues is with closing the fishery down in Nov and Dec here in NJ is way over the top and does not equally distribute the pain since these have historically been the best months to fish. You close down say Massachusetts for the same 2 months and they don’t feel the same pain we do because the fish are not there in those months. In my opinion making blanket decisions like this is the easy and lazy way for them to get the 14%.

How about letting the each of state decide how they want get to their share of the 14% by choosing the closure dates. Maybe some of them would choose to close down their commercial fishery like NJ did to get to part of it. Not sure what this would mean for NJ regs but whatever it is makes these decisions closer to the people they effect..

I could go on here forever but suffices to say, closing us down in Nov and Dec is ridiculous and can’t even believe it was suggested as an option. The basis of my comments to the ASFMC is all states should feel the same pain and have a say in how they choose to get to their 14%.

They just keep putting us in a smaller box Gerry. Less fish to target all the time, so boats all boats put pressure on one or two species all at once.

[Broad Bill]

You are 100% correct. After talking to several people, none of their "science" has come from the for-hire var's that have to be filled out daily. They are basing everything on recreational surveys. Its a complete joke. As you said, this closure will not so much effect any boats north of Montauk or say south of Ocean County, as the bio mass of fish is historically off long island/ north and central jersey.

I think you give the powers to be way too much credit. Decisions aren't based on for hire or recreational surveys or public meetings and certainly to Gerry's point not made based on Fair and Equitable distribution to states or sectors. Politics and economic agendas drive decisions, data is driven by desired results which is completely ass backwards.

The decision about stripers is already in, everything else is standard protocol to make the public believe they're actually being asked for their input. That's only a box to check under the provisions of the Magnuson Stevens Act and virtually never will these regulatory agencies factor in what the everyday recreational angler thinks should be done. Fisheries management is a dictatorship, not a democracy.

[Lido-Gambler]

How may others have commented? My comments are succinct and to the point.

1)These proposals are another measure intended to hurt the recreational anglers and the"for hire" sector which is perceived to wantonly just kill stripers. Further restrictions would greatly harm shore economies. Example- Striped Bass Fishing makes up 25-35 percent of our business and drives tourism post summer.

2)Be proactive not reactive-look to fix the spawning issue in the Chesapeake and not base decisions on harvest estimates like MRIP or sporadic state trawl surveys.

3) It was reported by ASMFC that seasonal closures are not supported by NOAA or State Agencies as they are too hard to enforce, why even propose them?

4) Bass are migrating further offshore due to Ocean Temperatures and Geography. The New York Bight and New Jersey Coast sees larger numbers bait and hence larger numbers of striped bass. Others states are driven to push this overly restrictive agenda as a result of poor fishing in thier region.

Capt. Chris Lido
FV Gambler
Point Pleasant Beach NJ

[dales529]

How may others have commented? My comments are succinct and to the point.

1)These proposals are another measure intended to hurt the recreational anglers and the"for hire" sector which is perceived to wantonly just kill stripers. Further restrictions would greatly harm shore economies. Example- Striped Bass Fishing makes up 25-35 percent of our business and drives tourism post summer.

2)Be procative not reactive-look to fix the spawning issue in the Chesapeake and not base decisions on harvest estimates like MRIP or sporadic state trawl surveys.

3) It was reported by ASMFC that seasonal closures are not supported by NOAA or State Agencies as they are too hard to enforce, why even propose them?

4) Bass are migrating further offshore due to Ocean Temperatures and Geography. The New York Bight and New Jersey Coast sees larger numbers bait and hence larger numbers of striped bass. Others states are driven to push this overly restrictive agenda as a result of poor fishing in thier region.

Capt. Chris Lido
FV Gambler
Point Pleasant Beach NJ

Well Said!

[jasm1n8]

This is what I emailed them:


I am writing to express my strong opposition to the proposed closure of striped bass in November and December for 2025. Based on my personal observations over the past few years, particularly in 2024, striped bass populations have been robust and increasing. I believe that closing the striped bass fishery in November and December, when populations are at their peak, is an excessive measure. While I understand the need for sustainable fishing practices, I urge the committee to consider alternative, less restrictive regulations, such as different month or alternate days during each month.

[SNAPS]

Yes we need to stress that closure is not an option, and will kill businesses but at the same time, we need to make them see, that maybe the science is flawed, and if they think the numbers are down, that it may be due to natures way. As some one else said here,they aint getting it done, for various reasons. Water temps current etc. How the eff do they know the biomass is down?? Did they take a head count??? What about natural predators???

[WhaleFart]

this fishery needs to be closed for harvest for at least 5 years. The fish you are seeing the last 3 or 4 seasons are the same fish. The breeding rates for bass is totally crashing. The fact is there are NO fish behind this class of fish that even hold a candle to the current biomass which still even isn’t that great considering .

It’s time to start treating bass like tarpon IMO.

[JSBlue26]

If the “Striper population is down” then why not CLOSE the Commercial fishery for stripers instead of closing the recreational fishery ??
The recreational fishery takes a fraction of what the commercial fishery gets annually. Closing the fishery for recreational anglers in Nov./ Dec. 2025 only benefits the commercial entities and will only ensure that charter and party boats up/down the coast would be devastating for them !!! Does this get taken into account when monitoring the biomass ?? Full closure would be the final straw and unfortunately guarantee putting numerous vessels out of business and both owners/employees losing their livelihood……… does that mean anything to these guru’s monitoring the fish stock “whale fart” …….??? Just mind boggling when the Fall 2024 run has been a great run that’s still going past mid-December !!!!
You can’t fix STUPID …….

[hartattack]

DEC NY RELEASES 2024 STRIPED BASS YOUNG-OF-YEAR SURVEY RESULTS​
Second Consecutive Year of Poor Juvenile Production in the Hudson River​
The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) today announced the 2024 Hudson River striped bass young-of-year survey results for 2024 depict a second consecutive year of poor juvenile production in the Hudson River. The index value, which provides an estimate of annual juvenile production for striped bass in the Hudson River, is generated through a beach seine survey at 13 sites in the lower Hudson River conducted bi-weekly from July to November. This is the 45th year of the survey, which provides important long-term monitoring information about striped bass and other fish species in the Hudson River.
“DEC’s annual juvenile striped bass survey conducted in the Hudson River is a critical method for measuring the reproductive success and potential future abundance of the striped bass population along the Atlantic Coast,” said DEC Interim Commissioner Sean Mahar. “Given the challenges striped bass are experiencing in other spawning areas and the poor results of the 2023 survey, this year’s below average index value in the Hudson River heightens the concerns of the future availability of this critical resource as we approach the next decade.”
The 2024 value for the DEC’s Hudson River striped bass young-of-year index was 7.85 fish per haul. This value is below the long-term average, and for the second consecutive year, survey values were below the 25th percentile. The survey can be viewed at: Striped Bass
Juvenile production is an important part of rebuilding the coastal striped bass stock and is heavily dependent on environmental conditions in estuaries along the Atlantic Coast. The recent low values in the Hudson River add to concerns about striped bass production in other Atlantic coastal estuaries. The Maryland young-of-year index in the Chesapeake Bay also posted poor results in 2024, extending a string of poor annual reproduction events in the Chesapeake Bay to a sixth consecutive year.
New York State works cooperatively with the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission (ASMFC) to manage striped bass. In response to projections from the 2024 Stock Assessment Update, the ASMFC Board will meet on Dec.16, to consider adjusting 2025 management measures to reduce fishing mortality and increase the probability of rebuilding the coastal stock of striped bass (meeting details).

[Broad Bill]

Larry that's going to be another nail in the fishery's coffin and another reason there will be a seasonal closure. When fisheries management promotes harvest of the large breeders in the stock for all these years and allows fishing during the spawn in the Hudson and Chesapeake, why should these results be a revelation. Their policy decisions caused it. Close fishing down during the spawn and give the stock a break as they get absolutely pounded year round. And for Christ sake, kick Cooke Inc. out of the Chesapeake and slash their quotas of menhaden in the ocean until the consequential impacts of their netting on other stocks and the environment are quantified and corrected. Stop being politicians and start solving problems. Stop using public resources as your personal piggy bank and start doing your job. If they didn't see both these problems coming with stripers and fluke a mile away, they're either completely incompetent or corrupt and most likely a combination of both. How many people ever worked for a company where one day your walked in and management said, "We have to cut staff by 50% because we thought we were making money but we're actually losing our shirts". These problems took years in the making and are of a scale large enough where the obvious question is why were less severe preventative measure not put on place sooner to avoid decisions which will bring with them catastrophic economic impacts and a potential moratorium on stock access for some period of time. Can you imagine NO FALL SURF FISHING next year for the two best months of the year and the impact that will have on tackle shops, small ocean community businesses and recreational anglers rights to enjoy a activity enjoyed for over a century. These regulatory agencies are destroying fisheries and people's lives and livelihoods with no recourse whatsoever. It's absolutely pathetic how this process works and the results being delivered.


When management has to revert to drastic measures it means they have no idea how to manage the stock. If they did, we wouldn't be at DEFCON 1 and we wouldn't be talking about such extreme measures as seasonal closures and in the case of fluke a 42% quota cut. That's their report card and they're failing miserably since they're management ideologies are completely flawed. Extreme levels of incompetency in both federal and state agencies with no accountability whatsoever to the general public.

[dales529]

DEC NY RELEASES 2024 STRIPED BASS YOUNG-OF-YEAR SURVEY RESULTS​
Second Consecutive Year of Poor Juvenile Production in the Hudson River​
The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) today announced the 2024 Hudson River striped bass young-of-year survey results for 2024 depict a second consecutive year of poor juvenile production in the Hudson River. The index value, which provides an estimate of annual juvenile production for striped bass in the Hudson River, is generated through a beach seine survey at 13 sites in the lower Hudson River conducted bi-weekly from July to November. This is the 45th year of the survey, which provides important long-term monitoring information about striped bass and other fish species in the Hudson River.
“DEC’s annual juvenile striped bass survey conducted in the Hudson River is a critical method for measuring the reproductive success and potential future abundance of the striped bass population along the Atlantic Coast,” said DEC Interim Commissioner Sean Mahar. “Given the challenges striped bass are experiencing in other spawning areas and the poor results of the 2023 survey, this year’s below average index value in the Hudson River heightens the concerns of the future availability of this critical resource as we approach the next decade.”
The 2024 value for the DEC’s Hudson River striped bass young-of-year index was 7.85 fish per haul. This value is below the long-term average, and for the second consecutive year, survey values were below the 25th percentile. The survey can be viewed at: Striped Bass
Juvenile production is an important part of rebuilding the coastal striped bass stock and is heavily dependent on environmental conditions in estuaries along the Atlantic Coast. The recent low values in the Hudson River add to concerns about striped bass production in other Atlantic coastal estuaries. The Maryland young-of-year index in the Chesapeake Bay also posted poor results in 2024, extending a string of poor annual reproduction events in the Chesapeake Bay to a sixth consecutive year.
New York State works cooperatively with the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission (ASMFC) to manage striped bass. In response to projections from the 2024 Stock Assessment Update, the ASMFC Board will meet on Dec.16, to consider adjusting 2025 management measures to reduce fishing mortality and increase the probability of rebuilding the coastal stock of striped bass (meeting details).

Interesting on the timing to coincide with ASMFC decision to now include Hudson Stock! :rolleyes:

[Broad Bill]

Interesting on the timing to coincide with ASMFC decision to now include Hudson Stock! :rolleyes:

As I said, the decision has already been made. The upcoming meeting and public comments are the CYA check the box bs that accompanies every regulatory decision and this one is no different. This decision is going to be the final straw for a lot of small businesses. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

And you won't find one person involved with these agencies that says "We royally %$#&@! this up!"

[AndyS]

As I said, the decision has already been made. ---------------->

Maybe if we got on buses and marched on Washington.

[1captainron]

As I said, the decision has already been made. ---------------->

Maybe if we got on buses and marched on Washington.

Did that twice Andy......Fell on deaf ears then, it will fall on deaf ears now. Many of the busses were not full, couple guys from my harbor thought it was more important to fish that day! That was the end for me. Curious as to where is Frank Pallone the career politician? Crickets. :mad:

[dales529]

As I said, the decision has already been made. ---------------->

Maybe if we got on buses and marched on Washington.

Not sure how that comment helps? Do you have a better idea and if so please share as i went there twice like Capt Ron / not sure I saw you? While all you do for freshwater is admirable all you do on SW is be negative with one line statements that do more harm than good and minimize the effort of others trying to make a difference so with all due respect if you have nothing to offer on the SW side please stick to what you best.

Again I respect your efforts on the FW side of fishing!

[dales529]

Did that twice Andy......Fell on deaf ears then, it will fall on deaf ears now. Many of the busses were not full, couple guys from my harbor thought it was more important to fish that day! That was the end for me. Curious as to where is Frank Pallone the career politician? Crickets. :mad:

Capt Ron
Same can be said for Chris Smith, Jeff Van Drew, Josh Gottheimer plus then Gov Christie and now Murphy All career politicians yet Crickets :mad:

[Broad Bill]

Not sure how that comment helps? Do you have a better idea and if so please share as i went there twice like Capt Ron / not sure I saw you? While all you do for freshwater is admirable all you do on SW is be negative with one line statements that do more harm than good and minimize the effort of others trying to make a difference so with all due respect if you have nothing to offer on the SW side please stick to what you best.

Again I respect your efforts on the FW side of fishing!

Dave, Andy was replying to my comment "the decisions already been made" so I deserve some of the angst from your reply which I take responsibility for. The buses and Washington are Andy's words.

Should people not send in comments or attend the meeting? I'm wasn't saying or implying that. After seven years trying and one door after another slammed in my face, even in certain cases by "recreational leadership", it's difficult staying positive. And with today's economic climate, fishery decisions prospectively will be made even more based on economic impact. The problem as I see it is the recreational communities impact on the economy isn't viewed equally or for the same reasons the commercial sector is. The federal government in my opinion believes recreational anglers will spend money and fish regardless of how much they catch or can retain, and to some degree they're correct. Commercial on the other hand needs "harvest" in order to create "catch value", their contribution to the economic benefits of the sector and that's where the problem starts. I think the government is completely underestimating the impact to the economy and social impacts if recreational fishing one day goes away or becomes a shadow of what it's been for decades.

My frustration, like most, is I don't think anyone in Washington gives a shit and I don't think any one or handful of politicians will change the process or views of the bureaucrats in Washington. The Department of Commerce and NMFS won't change their ideologies or focus and certainly won't admit they've been and still are wrong with these regulations. That's why I have so much disdain for Michael Waine and ASA. We, meaning you, me and Dan along with a dozen or so others, presented them with issues they said they'd take to the Hill and as far as I know it was all BS and they didn't do a dam thing. Waine said to me leaving that meeting "you need to be more diplomatic in your approach" meaning be more respectful in my correspondence. Management incompetency and too much diplomacy is what got us here. As I said, when the commercial sector has a problem, they sue and usually win. Maybe that's because the Dept. of Commerce values them more, don't know. Recreational has a problem, we complain and say thank you sir may I have another. I know all we have is our voice but truly don't know what the answer is other than it's probably going to take a whole lot more radical approach than signing petitions and attending meetings. Doesn't mean we shouldn't utilize what's available, I've just lost hope those same approaches which haven't worked in past will for some reason cause change today.

Economic impact statistics from NOAA:

Sales impact: $321 billion
Jobs supported: 2.3 million
Commercial sales: $183 billion
Recreational sales: $138 billion
Source: NOAA Fisheries

In my humble opinion, this is the primary reason why the recreational sector gets the short end of the stick religiously and why catch decisions tend to favor the commercial sector. That and the fact mentioned earlier which is Washington views our impact based on how many days we fish, not on how many fish we harvest since we don't sell our catch. As a matter of fact, the more we catch the less we'll buy retail so it's in their best interest to limit catch to our sector. Fair and Equitable allocation of resources as mandated by MSA, it's just a slogan and not how sectors are really being regulated.

To Capt Ron's point, in my opinion NMFS wants recreational anglers on the water spending their hard earned money, what they don't want is the sector harvesting our proportionate share of the resource. It's a problem which will impact sector regulations and the overall health of stocks until management moves from the Department of Commerce back to the Department of the Interior where it belongs which with the amount of money involved will most likely never happen.

Just my two cents.

[bunker dunker]

we need more "common sense and less dollar and sense".we need to flush the toilet and clear the offices of those who are making the marine decisions.i feel like the bird and glass door.should we have to have this conversation every season????should we have to have this conversation about every fish???i may be a bit older but man this has been going on forever.this is like a bad movie that the they keep making sequels for.i hate to say this but with this constant parade
of bs,golf is looking better and better.

[AndyS]

Maybe I'm just being a realist here but looking back over the last 20 years:

Bluefish-CUT
Yellowfin tuna-CUT
Ocean Pout-CUT
Striped Bass-CUT
Blackfish-CUT
Atlantic Herring-CUT
American Shad-CUT
Mako shark-CUT
Black Sea Bass-CUT
Weakfish-CUT
Winter Flounder-CUT
Golden and Blueline Tilefish-CUT
Bluefin tuna-CUT
Mackerel and Whiting- ?
Fluke- annual shell game

Hard to stay positive with this track record.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Maybe I'm just being a realist here but looking back over the last 20 years:

Bluefish-CUT
Yellowfin tuna-CUT
Ocean Pout-CUT
Striped Bass-CUT
Blackfish-CUT
Atlantic Herring-CUT
American Shad-CUT
Mako shark-CUT
Black Sea Bass-CUT
Weakfish-CUT
Winter Flounder-CUT
Golden and Bluefin Tilefish-CUT
Mackerel and Whiting- ?
Fluke- annual shell game

Hard to stay positive with this track record.

They have a track record for screwing up every fishery they manage. If you and me were in these positions we'd be fired.

[dales529]

https://asafishing.org/advocacy/policy-updates/asa-intervenes-in-lawsuit-seeks-to-ensure-successful-implementation-of-the-modern-fish-act/

BB any thoughts on ASA being part of a Federal lawsuit for Summer Flounder, Seabass , scup and Modern Fishing Act?

[Detour66]

Fisheries management is a dictatorship, not a democracy. I agree....100%

[Broad Bill]

https://asafishing.org/advocacy/policy-updates/asa-intervenes-in-lawsuit-seeks-to-ensure-successful-implementation-of-the-modern-fish-act/

BB any thoughts on ASA being part of a Federal lawsuit for Summer Flounder, Seabass , scup and Modern Fishing Act?

I'll do my best answering your question. Below are the federal fishing Acts adopted over the years since the Magnuson Stevens Act "MSA" was adopted in 1976. I believe the original intent of MSA was to establish a 200 mile limit and keep foreign factory ships out of our waters to prevent the exploitation of our salt water natural resources.

There's been three significant amendments to the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act since 1976:

Sustainable Fisheries Act of 1996: Strengthened requirements to prevent
overfishing and rebuild overfished stocks

MSA Reauthorization Act of 2006: Established annual catch limits,
accountability measures, and strengthened the role of science in fishery
management

Modernizing Recreational Fisheries Management Act of 2018:
Improved recreational fishing data and management of mixed-use
fisheries

Moving Russia and other European Block countries out of our waters back in the 70's was an enormous win for our ground stocks (cod, whiting, ling, pollock, sea bass etc.) but truthfully all these other reauthorizations if you compare them to what's happened with local stocks, with a few minor exception, have failed to accomplish their intended charter when compared to the condition of fisheries over the same time frame. I think it's a lot of lip service with very little substantive change, government rhetoric in a nutshell. The proof is in the results and the devil in the details. The proof is we have more declining fisheries than growing fisheries today and recreational access has been slashed and catch limits severely limited. Case in point from the ASA link you posted:

One of the key tenants of the Modern Fish Act was allowing for “alternative management” approaches that differ from the traditional system that is based on commercial fishing, while adhering to federal requirements to prevent overfishing. That pretty much sums up what's brought us to this point in time over the last fifty years, decisions focused and based on commercial interests thanks to the Department of Commerce, NMFS, ASMFC and MAFMC.

We'll see how the complaint proceeds and what changes it effectuates, if any, to the recreational community. MSA was adopted to protect domestic salt water resources, manage those stocks prudently and provide a "Fair and Equitable" allocation of those resources between the commercial and recreational sectors. Would you agree that was the primary intent? If so, do you agree those are the results we've seen over the last 30 years? Personally I see just the opposite.

You're familiar with the saying, "Money talks, bullshit walks". I think most of us are done with the BS we've been fed for the better part of three decades. I know I am. Not just in terms of more restrictive regulations, decreased access to fisheries, declining stocks, reduced seasons, different weight values assigned to the same age classes with summer flounder between the recreational and commercial sectors, an enormous problem in the management of summer flounder not on anyone's radar screen, and now the high probability of a closure in arguably the most important recreational fishery to all coastal states striped bass. And lets not even get into what hasn't been done to push Cooke Inc. out of Chesapeake Bay. I think it's a good thing ASA has thrown their hat in the ring with this complaint but their true measure is what are the results of their involvement. From a holistic perspective, I'll ask you a question, what has ASA done over the last ten years locally to improve the rights of the recreational angler or the health of extremely important stocks to shore communities and recreational anglers which seem to be declining at historically alarming rates. If I'm overlooking something here, please enlighten me.

As I said, the entire process from top to bottom is corrupt and driven by economics and political graft. Sorry to be a wet rag but that's what I see based on real life experiences dealing with people more concerned with their personal agendas and status as opposed to the job they were elected or appointed to carry out. We tolerate that process and until something is done to change it there's no plausible reason to believe the immediate or distant future will be any different than the last two decades filled with one disappointment after another to the recreational community and more fisheries being pushed to the brink because they simply are not being managed prudently.

I remember Gerry posting his interview with the Town about I believe working for the zoning board, tax board or some comparable department. He was asked, what is your primary goal if you get this job and I believe he answered to reduce taxes for all residents of the Town and make the Township more affordable and attractive to property owners and potential buyers. The guy stopped him in his tracks and said "No, your job is to make sure the Mayor is re-elected". Something along those lines, Gerry you can add color if I presented it in the wrong light. You said right then and there it was the shortest interview on record and you knew you didn't stand a snow balls chance in hell of getting the job.

Fisheries management is no different. They protect their turf, retain their own, insure the corrupt system prevails and exploit our resources so they can all benefit from the last gold rush on the planet. Until that changes, there will be no "Fair and Equitable" allocation of salt water resources as mandated by MSA and I believe the Modern Fishing Act will be yet again just another attempt to mislead the public that change is on the way when business as usual will prevail. Sorry to be negative as it's not typically my style but corruption has no boundaries or limitations and we'll need a sledge hammer to change it as it pertains to fisheries management.