What's Going On With Our Fisheries?

[Gerry Zagorski]

Used to be at any time of the year you could find some fishery that was open and you actually had a chance at catching something.

Seems like we always used to have some seasonal gap and back up fillers like Winter Flounder, Ling and Whiting as well as some staples like Bluefish and Weakfish that are now absent.

Couple that with all the recent doom and gloom with Fluke and now Striper recruitment and open and shut Seabass and Blackfish seasons, what the heck are we going to be able to fish for if there are gaps in those seasons?

A lot of theories as what or who is to blame but suffices to say the federal agencies that are in charge of managing the resource are failing us miserably. We can and should expect more from them given their $1.2 Billion per year budget, don't you think?

[hammer4reel]

Used to be at any time of the year you could find some fishery that was open and you actually had a chance at catching something.

Seems like we always used to have some seasonal gap and back up fillers like Winter Flounder, Ling and Whiting as well as some staples like Bluefish and Weakfish that are now absent.

Couple that with all the recent doom and gloom with Fluke and now Striper recruitment and open and shut Seabass and Blackfish seasons, what the heck are we going to be able to fish for if there are gaps in those seasons?

A lot of theories as what or who is to blame but suffices to say the federal agencies that are in charge of managing the resource are failing us miserably. We can and should expect more from them given their $1.2 Billion per year budget, don't you think?

One look at the 2007 marine summary card , and the 2023 summary card shows ABSOLUTE failure across the board .

Only place we didn’t loose yet is crabs and clams .
.
Then they go and protect dogfish WTF.

IMO they don’t want you to be able to go catch your own food .


.THEY see the fisheries as a political cash cow , in which they want to offer it to the highest bidder .

.

[togzilla]

Used to be at any time of the year you could find some fishery that was open and you actually had a chance at catching something.

Seems like we always used to have some seasonal gap and back up fillers like Winter Flounder, Ling and Whiting as well as some staples like Bluefish and Weakfish that are now absent.

Couple that with all the recent doom and gloom with Fluke and now Striper recruitment and open and shut Seabass and Blackfish seasons, what the heck are we going to be able to fish for if there are gaps in those seasons?

A lot of theories as what or who is to blame but suffices to say the federal agencies that are in charge of managing the resource are failing us miserably. We can and should expect more from them given their $1.2 Billion per year budget, don't you think?

It's been pretty obvious to me for many, many years. We have un-elected bureaucrats that are shutting down our ability fish one season at a time. It's death by a thousand cuts and just look at how many party boat & charter boats we have now compared to 25 years ago. Their ultimate goal is to slowly bleed us out of this fishery much like they have done for California fisherman. There are some people who understand this and that is why NJ & RI commercial fisherman are suing the federal govt. to overturn a 40 year old court ruling know as the "Chevron Deference" which essentially means that courts defer to federal agencies in their interpretations of broad or unclear language in the laws passed by Congress. These federal agencies are now demanding that commercial fisherman must bear the cost of these govt. employees that are required to be abroad these commercial fishing trips to monitor their catch at a cost of $700 a day. Sometimes the crew do not even make anywhere near that amount of money and this is just an added cost to their business. I assure you these un-elected bureaucrats are not fighting for our rights and freedoms but for govt. control and we all know what side of the political isle they represent.
I'm sure they are going to be some liberal trolls that will dispute this with no facts or evidence which I have seen them do multiple times on this website. Elections have consequences and for decades the corrupt media, education institutes, and politicians have been lying to us which is why this country is in serious trouble and why there is so much divisiveness and hatred. People will blame Trump and his supporters but all Trump did was help awaken the American public. Don't get me wrong I think Trump is an egomaniac and offends a lot of people. However, this is not a 6th grade election on who the coolest kid is but simply about policy. Between Biden & Trump there is only 1 candidate who is representing the American citizen and their freedoms and rights. Unlike most trolls on this website that won't back up their opinion or just put a link to a far progressive political group with little factual content below is a link from ABC (left leaning too) on this court case!
I think the only way things will change is to have a massive electoral change in the direction of this county but more importantly to start class action lawsuits because money is the only thing that drives our politicians and not morals or ethics. WHAT DO THE TROLLS HAVE TO SAY?
https://6abc.com/cape-may-new-jersey-fishermen-chevron-scotus/14335908/

[Gerry Zagorski]

One look at the 2007 marine summary card , and the 2023 summary card shows ABSOLUTE failure across the board .

Only place we didn’t loose yet is crabs and clams .
.
Then they go and protect dogfish WTF.

IMO they don’t want you to be able to go catch your own food .


.THEY see the fisheries as a political cash cow , in which they want to offer it to the highest bidder .

.

You and I usually have differing opinions on things but we're in lock step on this one.

They couldn't have screwed this up more! I'm no conspiracy theory type person, but I find myself thinking more and more, is this exactly how they want it to be or is it total incompetence?

Either way, things need to change and people need to be held accountable to "we the people" they're supposed to serve.

Yeah, when pigs fly out of my butt :rolleyes:

[Gerry Zagorski]

It's been pretty obvious to me for many, many years. We have un-elected bureaucrats that are shutting down our ability fish one season at a time. It's death by a thousand cuts and just look at how many party boat & charter boats we have now compared to 25 years ago. Their ultimate goal is to slowly bleed us out of this fishery much like they have done for California fisherman. There are some people who understand this and that is why NJ & RI commercial fisherman are suing the federal govt. to overturn a 40 year old court ruling know as the "Chevron Deference" which essentially means that courts defer to federal agencies in their interpretations of broad or unclear language in the laws passed by Congress. These federal agencies are now demanding that commercial fisherman must bear the cost of these govt. employees that are required to be abroad these commercial fishing trips to monitor their catch at a cost of $700 a day. Sometimes the crew do not even make anywhere near that amount of money and this is just an added cost to their business. I assure you these un-elected bureaucrats are not fighting for our rights and freedoms but for govt. control and we all know what side of the political isle they represent.
I'm sure they are going to be some liberal trolls that will dispute this with no facts or evidence which I have seen them do multiple times on this website. Elections have consequences and for decades the corrupt media, education institutes, and politicians have been lying to us which is why this country is in serious trouble and why there is so much divisiveness and hatred. People will blame Trump and his supporters but all Trump did was help awaken the American public. Don't get me wrong I think Trump is an egomaniac and offends a lot of people. However, this is not a 6th grade election on who the coolest kid is but simply about policy. Between Biden & Trump there is only 1 candidate who is representing the American citizen and their freedoms and rights. Unlike most trolls on this website that won't back up their opinion or just put a link to a far progressive political group with little factual content below is a link from ABC (left leaning too) on this court case!
I think the only way things will change is to have a massive electoral change in the direction of this county but more importantly to start class action lawsuits because money is the only thing that drives our politicians and not morals or ethics. WHAT DO THE TROLLS HAVE TO SAY?
https://6abc.com/cape-may-new-jersey-fishermen-chevron-scotus/14335908/

Oh boy it's getting hot in here now...Pass the popcorn!

As far as I'm concerned, it's rigged on both sides to serve them, not us. The more they keep us fighting and divided the better it is for them... It ebbs and flows like the tide but there's no slack tide any more and that's exactly how they want it.. You're either labeled as left or right and it goes from one extreme or the other and no longer any middle.

[dales529]

It's been pretty obvious to me for many, many years. We have un-elected bureaucrats that are shutting down our ability fish one season at a time. It's death by a thousand cuts and just look at how many party boat & charter boats we have now compared to 25 years ago. Their ultimate goal is to slowly bleed us out of this fishery much like they have done for California fisherman. There are some people who understand this and that is why NJ & RI commercial fisherman are suing the federal govt. to overturn a 40 year old court ruling know as the "Chevron Deference" which essentially means that courts defer to federal agencies in their interpretations of broad or unclear language in the laws passed by Congress. These federal agencies are now demanding that commercial fisherman must bear the cost of these govt. employees that are required to be abroad these commercial fishing trips to monitor their catch at a cost of $700 a day. Sometimes the crew do not even make anywhere near that amount of money and this is just an added cost to their business. I assure you these un-elected bureaucrats are not fighting for our rights and freedoms but for govt. control and we all know what side of the political isle they represent.
I'm sure they are going to be some liberal trolls that will dispute this with no facts or evidence which I have seen them do multiple times on this website. Elections have consequences and for decades the corrupt media, education institutes, and politicians have been lying to us which is why this country is in serious trouble and why there is so much divisiveness and hatred. People will blame Trump and his supporters but all Trump did was help awaken the American public. Don't get me wrong I think Trump is an egomaniac and offends a lot of people. However, this is not a 6th grade election on who the coolest kid is but simply about policy. Between Biden & Trump there is only 1 candidate who is representing the American citizen and their freedoms and rights. Unlike most trolls on this website that won't back up their opinion or just put a link to a far progressive political group with little factual content below is a link from ABC (left leaning too) on this court case!
I think the only way things will change is to have a massive electoral change in the direction of this county but more importantly to start class action lawsuits because money is the only thing that drives our politicians and not morals or ethics. WHAT DO THE TROLLS HAVE TO SAY?
https://6abc.com/cape-may-new-jersey-fishermen-chevron-scotus/14335908/

I have been an advocate with many fishing groups over my years on this site that included members from both sides of any / all aisles politically, running many fundraising trips for recreational fishing rights, veterans groups etc.

Since MSA was introduced in 1986 we have had Regan, Bush 1, Clinton , Bush 2. Obama , Trump and now Biden so exactly what party is at fault for fishing regulatory issues as each had a chance to adjust it or fix it.??

Left /right / trolls LOL has very little to do with recreational fishery management.

I could argue Freedoms and rights which you stated but seems either /both parties are restricting our democracy daily either outright through the supreme court or under the guise of states law. Pick your poison but sorry there isnt a clear choice going forward. Albeit the above has little to do again with recreational fishing.

Lastly if you believe for one second that overturning the Chevron Deference would have any positive effect on recreational fishing I hope but doubt that you may do more research albeit hard since all information is corrupt or subject to those massive "trolls" we all had as kids!

[togzilla]

I have been an advocate with many fishing groups over my years on this site that included members from both sides of any / all aisles politically, running many fundraising trips for recreational fishing rights, veterans groups etc.

Since MSA was introduced in 1986 we have had Regan, Bush 1, Clinton , Bush 2. Obama , Trump and now Biden so exactly what party is at fault for fishing regulatory issues as each had a chance to adjust it or fix it.??

Left /right / trolls LOL has very little to do with recreational fishery management.

I could argue Freedoms and rights which you stated but seems either /both parties are restricting our democracy daily either outright through the supreme court or under the guise of states law. Pick your poison but sorry there isnt a clear choice going forward. Albeit the above has little to do again with recreational fishing.

Lastly if you believe for one second that overturning the Chevron Deference would have any positive effect on recreational fishing I hope but doubt that you may do more research albeit hard since all information is corrupt or subject to those massive "trolls" we all had as kids!

"I could argue Freedoms and rights which you stated but seems either /both parties are restricting our democracy daily either outright through the supreme court or under the guise of states law. Pick your poison but sorry there isnt a clear choice going forward. Albeit the above has little to do again with recreational fishing."

Let me expand a bit because I do agree with some of your points but feel you are missing some of the bigger picture. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump and Biden have all helped to create the problems we have today, specifically a compounding Gov. problem that is not going to end well.
I am not going to go into economics because I have been studying economics for the last 33 years as it is a requirement of my job and the vast majority of people in this country are economically illiterate. That does not make then bad people at all as I am illiterate in the areas medicine, engineering, etc. But I am educated enough not to post on subjects that I am not extremely well versed in and can back up my findings.
How does the Chevron Deference affect recreational fishing if overturned? In the short term not one bit. But the only way to get some sanity back in this country is to reduce the power that the govt. has over individual states and their citizens. This country is a Constitution Republic and NOT a democracy and this is where most people have been deceived by the media. By overturning "Chevron Deference" this is going to start the long process of giving power back to the states and just as important to Congress and not un-elected bureaucrats. Make no mistake, if "Chevron Deference" is overturned this open up more lawsuits against govt. agencies that have created incredible burdens on many different industries. This will give power back to the states to make decisions that are in the best interest of those citizens that elect their Congressmen and Senators to represent them. Can this be done yes, but I am not optimistic as there is just too much corruption that has been embedded in our represented leaders including our education system. I don't worry for myself as retirement is not far off for me and I will be positioned financially to benefit from the inevitable but I worry a great deal for people that don't understand what is happening.
I have been at NMFS meetings and it is so blatantly obvious they do not have a care in the world for the recreational fisherman even when we challenge flawed science so maybe ask yourself, WHY? Power and govt. control, which makes you think which culture of people in this world have benefited from govt. power and control except those in control.
This is my last post as I should have known not to approach this subject but I guess I am just one person who refuses to be silent anymore.
Trolls go at it, but I will not waste anymore of my time debating with people who are blind to the obvious. Shame on me for even posting!

[FishingSinceIWasThree]

Used to be at any time of the year you could find some fishery that was open and you actually had a chance at catching something.

Seems like we always used to have some seasonal gap and back up fillers like Winter Flounder, Ling and Whiting as well as some staples like Bluefish and Weakfish that are now absent.

Couple that with all the recent doom and gloom with Fluke and now Striper recruitment and open and shut Seabass and Blackfish seasons, what the heck are we going to be able to fish for if there are gaps in those seasons?

A lot of theories as what or who is to blame but suffices to say the federal agencies that are in charge of managing the resource are failing us miserably. We can and should expect more from them given their $1.2 Billion per year budget, don't you think?


Agreed...what happened to whiting? Seems like some kind of a mass commercial wipe out to me.

[Fishguy1]

How soon you forget. A lot of the people who post here are older guys. I know this bc they post ad nauseam about “back in the day” when there were no regulations…which led to regulations bc people are greedy and foolish and treated the resource as though it were unlimited. You know what else was true “back in the day”? There were no environmental regulations either. It got so bad that Richard Nixon created the EPA. (That’s right, guys! A republican created the EPA!) Why? Because of places like Raritan Bay and the Hudson River and NY Harbor which were industrial dumping grounds for corporations and sewers for the general public. Make no mistake, the striped bass fishery we enjoy is the direct result of actions by the federal government to reign in pollution. Like it or not it’s reality. There is a tremendous amount of historical scientific data to back this up and I invite any doubters to do some research. Yeah the government sucks a lot of the time but sometimes they do good. It’s the reason there isn’t lead in the paint on your kids toys. It’s the reason cars are the safest they’ve ever been. It’s the reason GE and Dutch Boy paint and Carborundom and United Lead don’t dump industrial wastes into our home waters anymore. It’s the reason Raritan Bay isn’t a festering , lifeless cesspool. My 2 cents.

[hammer4reel]

How soon you forget. A lot of the people who post here are older guys. I know this bc they post ad nauseam about “back in the day” when there were no regulations…which led to regulations bc people are greedy and foolish and treated the resource as though it were unlimited. You know what else was true “back in the day”? There were no environmental regulations either. It got so bad that Richard Nixon created the EPA. (That’s right, guys! A republican created the EPA!) Why? Because of places like Raritan Bay and the Hudson River and NY Harbor which were industrial dumping grounds for corporations and sewers for the general public. Make no mistake, the striped bass fishery we enjoy is the direct result of actions by the federal government to reign in pollution. Like it or not it’s reality. There is a tremendous amount of historical scientific data to back this up and I invite any doubters to do some research. Yeah the government sucks a lot of the time but sometimes they do good. It’s the reason there isn’t lead in the paint on your kids toys. It’s the reason cars are the safest they’ve ever been. It’s the reason GE and Dutch Boy paint and Carborundom and United Lead don’t dump industrial wastes into our home waters anymore. It’s the reason Raritan Bay isn’t a festering , lifeless cesspool. My 2 cents.


Comparing the action of the EPA and NMFS is like comparing watermelons to kiwi fruit . And expecting the same return .

SBBM of the fisheries back then was sustainable and a much better recruitment levels . NMFS has messed a lot up with current regs .
Sea bass way beyond rebuilt , destroying the lobster grounds . Eating everything they can .
Protecting Dogfish , eating everything they can .
Allowing way overuse and bycatch throw back by the commercial fleet when fish are at their easiest to target .


It’s NMFS that is destroying the fisheries , and it can be seen across the board .
Meetings showing their own information is tainted falls on deaf ears .

.

[bulletbob]

How soon you forget. A lot of the people who post here are older guys. I know this bc they post ad nauseam about “back in the day” when there were no regulations…which led to regulations bc people are greedy and foolish and treated the resource as though it were unlimited. You know what else was true “back in the day”? There were no environmental regulations either. It got so bad that Richard Nixon created the EPA. (That’s right, guys! A republican created the EPA!) Why? Because of places like Raritan Bay and the Hudson River and NY Harbor which were industrial dumping grounds for corporations and sewers for the general public. Make no mistake, the striped bass fishery we enjoy is the direct result of actions by the federal government to reign in pollution. Like it or not it’s reality. There is a tremendous amount of historical scientific data to back this up and I invite any doubters to do some research. Yeah the government sucks a lot of the time but sometimes they do good. It’s the reason there isn’t lead in the paint on your kids toys. It’s the reason cars are the safest they’ve ever been. It’s the reason GE and Dutch Boy paint and Carborundom and United Lead don’t dump industrial wastes into our home waters anymore. It’s the reason Raritan Bay isn’t a festering , lifeless cesspool. My 2 cents.

You are omitting a few painful facts.. Yes, stripers are back, and swarm in the "clean waters" that were facilitated by the creation of the EPA.. yeah great.. However, when those same waters were a "festering lifeless cesspool" 50 years ago, they were choked thick year round, with flounder, weakfish, fluke by the millions,swarming schools of blues of all sizes, all sorts of bottom fish such as porgies, sea bass, blowfish, kingfish, spot, eels by the millions, and just outside the bay were blackfish everywhere,as well as Whiting , Ling Mackeral, Sea bass, etc, not to mention all the rough fish by the billions Dogfish, sea robins, skates etc etc etc...So did the EPA regs get rid of those fish, and
"bring back" stripers instead??... I dunno, if you wish to credit the EPA regulations for the restoration of striped bass, should you also credit them in the same breath with the disappearance of a half dozen other species???.. It would seem that it should work both ways -no??... bob

[Gerry Zagorski]

I think we can all agree that our local waters are much cleaner then they were back in the 70s and 80s. Manufactures dumped what ever they wanted in the rivers and bays and every town dumped their raw sewage and we have the EPA to thank for cleaning things up.

I wish we had the same results from the government agencies responsible for managing our marine fisheries. No passing grade there and it seems for most any species and this in spite of the environmental improvements.

[Fishguy1]

You are omitting a few painful facts.. Yes, stripers are back, and swarm in the "clean waters" that were facilitated by the creation of the EPA.. yeah great.. However, when those same waters were a "festering lifeless cesspool" 50 years ago, they were choked thick year round, with flounder, weakfish, fluke by the millions,swarming schools of blues of all sizes, all sorts of bottom fish such as porgies, sea bass, blowfish, kingfish, spot, eels by the millions, and just outside the bay were blackfish everywhere,as well as Whiting , Ling Mackeral, Sea bass, etc, not to mention all the rough fish by the billions Dogfish, sea robins, skates etc etc etc...So did the EPA regs get rid of those fish, and
"bring back" stripers instead??... I dunno, if you wish to credit the EPA regulations for the restoration of striped bass, should you also credit them in the same breath with the disappearance of a half dozen other species???.. It would seem that it should work both ways -no??... bob The answer is no. Pretty clear. EPA doesn’t regulate fisheries. Also, read what I wrote again. You seem to be misrepresenting what I said.

[Detour66]

Overfishing and the demand for fresh fish over the last 60 years. Also the oceans are warming up and any of the fish that we use to catch like whiting, atlantic mackerel and cod have moved north to colder waters. Winter flounder were just wiped out and never recovered.

[dales529]

"I could argue Freedoms and rights which you stated but seems either /both parties are restricting our democracy daily either outright through the supreme court or under the guise of states law. Pick your poison but sorry there isnt a clear choice going forward. Albeit the above has little to do again with recreational fishing."

Let me expand a bit because I do agree with some of your points but feel you are missing some of the bigger picture. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump and Biden have all helped to create the problems we have today, specifically a compounding Gov. problem that is not going to end well.
I am not going to go into economics because I have been studying economics for the last 33 years as it is a requirement of my job and the vast majority of people in this country are economically illiterate. That does not make then bad people at all as I am illiterate in the areas medicine, engineering, etc. But I am educated enough not to post on subjects that I am not extremely well versed in and can back up my findings.
How does the Chevron Deference affect recreational fishing if overturned? In the short term not one bit. But the only way to get some sanity back in this country is to reduce the power that the govt. has over individual states and their citizens. This country is a Constitution Republic and NOT a democracy and this is where most people have been deceived by the media. By overturning "Chevron Deference" this is going to start the long process of giving power back to the states and just as important to Congress and not un-elected bureaucrats. Make no mistake, if "Chevron Deference" is overturned this open up more lawsuits against govt. agencies that have created incredible burdens on many different industries. This will give power back to the states to make decisions that are in the best interest of those citizens that elect their Congressmen and Senators to represent them. Can this be done yes, but I am not optimistic as there is just too much corruption that has been embedded in our represented leaders including our education system. I don't worry for myself as retirement is not far off for me and I will be positioned financially to benefit from the inevitable but I worry a great deal for people that don't understand what is happening.
I have been at NMFS meetings and it is so blatantly obvious they do not have a care in the world for the recreational fisherman even when we challenge flawed science so maybe ask yourself, WHY? Power and govt. control, which makes you think which culture of people in this world have benefited from govt. power and control except those in control.
This is my last post as I should have known not to approach this subject but I guess I am just one person who refuses to be silent anymore.
Trolls go at it, but I will not waste anymore of my time debating with people who are blind to the obvious. Shame on me for even posting!

No need to stop posting or giving your opinion. We most likely agree on more than you think.
Having said that the discussion over Democracy vs Constitutional Republic is clear that yes we are a "Constitutional Republic" but based on the definition of a Democracy. So semantics / chicken vs egg if you will. Writers of the constitution acknowledged it was flawed and accepted that amendments would always be required to keep "democracy" ( government elected by citizens) alive and well. Still the case today!

Yes we agree government overreach and ideology out of control but states are also complicit in restriction of freedom and rights. (EX: Florida) for One.

Again no "party" is exempt from over reach but like Gerry posted there is no longer a middle ground which should be the "clear" choice but no moderate leaders in the mix!!

Media deception is rampant again on both sides but would hardly call it corrupt unless people cant make informed decisions on their own rather than believing anything they hear over and over without facts ( or worse alternative facts) and zero evidence. Corrupt implies criminal intent, I would just call it entertainment.

Agree government agency control of our fisheries has prevented common sense regulations. Like soo many policies of good intent the Chevron was one as was catch shares when first instituted in the bearing sea, then greed took over.

The fact commercial fishermen are a united group and recreational fishermen are NOT exposes why we recs lose. USA sadly heading in the same direction with power overreach and no moderate choices.

[Broad Bill]

Overfishing and the demand for fresh fish over the last 60 years. Also the oceans are warming up and any of the fish that we use to catch like whiting, Atlantic mackerel and cod have moved north to colder waters. Winter flounder were just wiped out and never recovered.

Detour I agree with most of your post, would like to add the following. We're too quick to blame almost everything on climate change. Are warming trends causing some degree of spatial expansion of stocks northward, absolutely yes. Is it to the degree it explains or justifies the declines we've seen in so many stocks locally, I don't believe it is. I think climate change is used as a diversionary reason for everything that can't be explained otherwise or to deflect attention from the known reason, overfishing, because it's convenient to do so and masks the impacts of bad policy decisions.

Winter flounder were wiped out in a few short years when they were targeted by commercials year round in their offshore summering grounds. Targeted after the commercials killed the summer flounder fishery in the late 80's. Whiting, Cod and Atlantic Mackerel didn't move north, they were obliterated by international and domestic commercial fleets and never recovered. Southern New England and Gulf of Maine waters have seen the same declines we have over the decades. In the early 90's, Atlantic cod stocks fell to less than 5% of historic levels. Mackerel, a major source of bait in a $3 billion lobster fishery, plummeted due to fisheries mismanagement and overfishing by the commercial sector. Only 27% of today's stock actually reaches sexual maturity destroying recruitment. How is a fishery expected to recover when recruitment has been completely impaired? Whiting were literally annihilated within a few short years in our local waters when international processing ships and domestic small mesh trawlers killed the stock which everyone thought could never happen. It happened overnight and never rebounded.

I share the same concerns which have been posted recently on these threads. There's an answer for all these problems but it involves fundamental changes in how these stocks are managed and protected to insure long term viability. With the myopic management practices we've been living with for decades which get progressively worse, I don't see how these stock withstand the demand, technological commercial advancements and the price they have on their heads. It's the last known gold rush involving a natural resource and businesses, financial markets and government are all looking to cash in on their share and impacts to the recreational sector unfortunately aren't anywhere near the top of their list in the overall order of priorities.

[Togfather2530]

You are omitting a few painful facts.. Yes, stripers are back, and swarm in the "clean waters" that were facilitated by the creation of the EPA.. yeah great.. However, when those same waters were a "festering lifeless cesspool" 50 years ago, they were choked thick year round, with flounder, weakfish, fluke by the millions,swarming schools of blues of all sizes, all sorts of bottom fish such as porgies, sea bass, blowfish, kingfish, spot, eels by the millions, and just outside the bay were blackfish everywhere,as well as Whiting , Ling Mackeral, Sea bass, etc, not to mention all the rough fish by the billions Dogfish, sea robins, skates etc etc etc...So did the EPA regs get rid of those fish, and
"bring back" stripers instead??... I dunno, if you wish to credit the EPA regulations for the restoration of striped bass, should you also credit them in the same breath with the disappearance of a half dozen other species???.. It would seem that it should work both ways -no??... bob

This was due to all the guys in your generation, Bob, stuffing the blues in burlap bags, and not even keeping them on ice on the party boats, and also many people I know, loading the whole bottom of their boat with weakfish that they clearly weren’t going to eat and then throwing them in the trash cans after they got home. A lot of the people back in the day were idiots. Overfishing that they thought the resource was always going to be there. Smoking cigarettes because they thought their lungs would never be harmed. Just saying it is what it is. Most of the salt water fishery’s have gone downhill and anyone that wants to disagree is an absolute idiot. Maybe one day you won’t be able to fish at all. All these recreational fisherman wanna bitch but all I hear is that they want more and more liberal regs. Thank God there’s not as many party boats or we would even have less fish most likely. If left totally in the recreational fisherman’s hands with no regs and no closed seasons, you better damn well believe they would destroy the fishery like they already did.

[Fishguy1]

This was due to all the guys in your generation, Bob, stuffing the blues in burlap bags, and not even keeping them on ice on the party boats, and also many people I know, loading the whole bottom of their boat with weakfish that they clearly weren’t going to eat and then throwing them in the trash cans after they got home. A lot of the people back in the day were idiots. Overfishing that they thought the resource was always going to be there. Smoking cigarettes because they thought their lungs would never be harmed. Just saying it is what it is. Most of the salt water fishery’s have gone downhill and anyone that wants to disagree is an absolute idiot. Maybe one day you won’t be able to fish at all. All these recreational fisherman wanna bitch but all I hear is that they want more and more liberal regs. Thank God there’s not as many party boats or we would even have less fish most likely. If left totally in the recreational fisherman’s hands with no regs and no closed seasons, you better damn well believe they would destroy the fishery like they already did.

Recreational fishing has never put any fish on the endangered species list.

[Gerry Zagorski]

This was due to all the guys in your generation, Bob, stuffing the blues in burlap bags, and not even keeping them on ice on the party boats, and also many people I know, loading the whole bottom of their boat with weakfish that they clearly weren’t going to eat and then throwing them in the trash cans after they got home. A lot of the people back in the day were idiots. Overfishing that they thought the resource was always going to be there. Smoking cigarettes because they thought their lungs would never be harmed. Just saying it is what it is. Most of the salt water fishery’s have gone downhill and anyone that wants to disagree is an absolute idiot. Maybe one day you won’t be able to fish at all. All these recreational fisherman wanna bitch but all I hear is that they want more and more liberal regs. Thank God there’s not as many party boats or we would even have less fish most likely. If left totally in the recreational fisherman’s hands with no regs and no closed seasons, you better damn well believe they would destroy the fishery like they already did.

Woah! Not denying that people kept and wasted a lot of fish back in the day and I was one of them.... However, those fish were still around in great numbers until recently... As far as party boats are concerned, don't you think the people who run those boats want to be able to sustain the fisheries to keep their businesses viable in the future? Even if you assume that wasn't the case and it was short term greed, shouldn't the agencies who were managing the fisheries tightened up the regs so overfishing didn't occur?

I believe most recreational fishermen and for hires might not like it but they'd suck it up if they had faith in the way these fisheries were managed and the so called "science" that goes into managing them... MRIP is a joke and even they admitted it. And, after sucking up the punitive declines in Seabass regs , even when fishery fully recovered, we never got anything back?

How about some critical thinking here? If you want to point fingers they should clearly be pointed back to the agencies managing the fisheries and setting and enforcing the regulations during the decline. Not the people who were following their regulations and trusting their "science".

[reason162]

I have been an advocate with many fishing groups over my years on this site that included members from both sides of any / all aisles politically, running many fundraising trips for recreational fishing rights, veterans groups etc.

Since MSA was introduced in 1986 we have had Regan, Bush 1, Clinton , Bush 2. Obama , Trump and now Biden so exactly what party is at fault for fishing regulatory issues as each had a chance to adjust it or fix it.??

Left /right / trolls LOL has very little to do with recreational fishery management.

I could argue Freedoms and rights which you stated but seems either /both parties are restricting our democracy daily either outright through the supreme court or under the guise of states law. Pick your poison but sorry there isnt a clear choice going forward. Albeit the above has little to do again with recreational fishing.

Lastly if you believe for one second that overturning the Chevron Deference would have any positive effect on recreational fishing I hope but doubt that you may do more research albeit hard since all information is corrupt or subject to those massive "trolls" we all had as kids!

When it comes to politics people should just call balls and strikes - that's our duty as citizens. To embrace tribalism - for any issue we might care about, not just fisheries management - is to be part of the problem.

Fishery management does seem to bring out the best of people smashing square pegs into round holes, bending over backwards so they can still consider themselves good conservatives or liberals.

[reason162]

If you want to point fingers they should clearly be pointed back to the agencies managing the fisheries and setting and enforcing the regulations during the decline. Not the people who were following their regulations and trusting their "science".

That might be a true statement if the people following regulations (in this case the charter/party/tackle industries) don't also push to influence regulations, and always in one direction.

It's more accurate to blame the comm/rec reps who hobble the efforts of state biologists - both parties are represented in the ASMFC, and the entire process is poisoned by political appointees and people with vested economic interest in a public resource.

[Togfather2530]

Woah! Not denying that people kept and wasted a lot of fish back in the day and I was one of them.... However, those fish were still around in great numbers until recently... As far as party boats are concerned, don't you think the people who run those boats want to be able to sustain the fisheries to keep their businesses viable in the future? Even if you assume that wasn't the case and it was short term greed, shouldn't the agencies who were managing the fisheries tightened up the regs so overfishing didn't occur?

I believe most recreational fishermen and for hires might not like it but they'd suck it up if they had faith in the way these fisheries were managed and the so called "science" that goes into managing them... MRIP is a joke and even they admitted it. And, after sucking up the punitive declines in Seabass regs , even when fishery fully recovered, we never got anything back?

How about some critical thinking here? If you want to point fingers they should clearly be pointed back to the agencies managing the fisheries and setting and enforcing the regulations during the decline. Not the people who were following their regulations and trusting their "science".

Jerry. No one’s pointing fingers here. Maybe you take this the wrong way. But I knew so many that went down to the shore back in the day and kept tons of weak fish and blues and didn’t eat half of them. If you really think these fisheries, get depleted and results are immediate when you’re taking fish like hogs, you’re wrong. I’m a firm believer that any fishery that’s not being managed right takes 10 years or more to show its ugly face. I’ve seen enough posts of party boat captains complaining about the Regs but believe me when I tell you these guys that run businesses whether they’re charter or party boat guys, if they were not regulated, would be keeping fish like it was never going to go out of style. Fishermen are not the best managers of a resource. Also, I put no faith in any government agency to manage anything or do anything or get anything accomplished. I’m sure they are doing a lousy job, but if the fisherman really care they can manage the resources themselves. No one really needs the government to tell them what to keep and what not to keep. I know we all need or want to keep shorter fluke and not the breeders but at the same time no one that salt water fishes does any kind of catch and releasing much. The fisherman that fish saltwater back in the day were all just about filling their freezer up when they went fishing. Half of it was freezer burn trash. Another thing these people that talk about how recreational fisherman could never damage a fishery seriously need to get their head out of the sand. Just my opinion.

[Togfather2530]

One thing to take comfort in is fish reproduce quite well. All we would have to do is closed down all fisheries, commercial and recreational for two years or so and the oceans would be teaming with fish I believe. As far as the fish that moved north because of global warming well that’s another situation. I don’t think you’re going to get them back in the numbers that they were in the same areas. It’s that simple though. If man leaves his fingers off of the resources for a while, they will replenish. As far as the oceans being clean, I’m sure our area is cleaner than it was one time and I’m sure the EPA did quite a bit good. But there’s been plenty of days that we’ve all been out there and there was nothing but trash and plastic floating by our boats. To say we are in clean waters is a joke to me. There’s been plenty of days when I was embarrassed to take the people that I took fishing in the ocean because it was a cesspool full of trash.

[hammer4reel]

One thing to take comfort in is fish reproduce quite well. All we would have to do is closed down all fisheries, commercial and recreational for two years or so and the oceans would be teaming with fish I believe. As far as the fish that moved north because of global warming well that’s another situation. I don’t think you’re going to get them back in the numbers that they were in the same areas. It’s that simple though. If man leaves his fingers off of the resources for a while, they will replenish. As far as the oceans being clean, I’m sure our area is cleaner than it was one time and I’m sure the EPA did quite a bit good. But there’s been plenty of days that we’ve all been out there and there was nothing but trash and plastic floating by our boats. To say we are in clean waters is a joke to me. There’s been plenty of days when I was embarrassed to take the people that I took fishing in the ocean because it was a cesspool full of trash.

Winter flounder was a super catchable fish through 2007 .
2008 it went to 2 fish .
It’s held at that level for over 15 years .
Hardly anyone fishes for them , because it’s too expensive to buy chum , sand worms etc to warrant catching only 2 fish .

Yet without a decrease by about 99% in fishing pressure they apparently still haven’t rebuilt .

.There should be no commercial harvest , but there still is .
NC closed its recreational fishing season for fluke last year .
Opened it for 2 weeks in September .
Yet the commercial boats were allowed to go anywhere for 30000 pounds a week .
If that’s not mismanagement I don’t know what is.

.

[baseballman]

The whole situation is a disaster. Regulations are insane, the data is extremely flawed and state government doesn't even care enough to fill vacant council positions. The latter is really all you need to know about where the priorities are...elsewhere.

On a more anecdotal level, I'm a somewhat young fisherman. My entire life the striped bass regulations included a keeper starting at 28" and a bonus fish...how can you tell me the data supports keeping that the same every year? Now its a 3-inch slot to protect oversize females...which to me is funny, because as the fluke limit creeps up, we are DECIMATING the spawning size female fluke population.

On top of this, there is also a painfully obvious fact that there is no lobby or organization that has its act together enough to represent the interests of recreational fisherman. Obviously the commercial fishery is a billion dollar global business - but it should dawn on the tackle shops, brands, head/charter/six pack captains and even local politicians in places that still have a fishing economy left to band together to fund pushing change.

[Broad Bill]

That might be a true statement if the people following regulations (in this case the charter/party/tackle industries) don't also push to influence regulations, and always in one direction.

It's more accurate to blame the comm/rec reps who hobble the efforts of state biologists - both parties are represented in the ASMFC, and the entire process is poisoned by political appointees and people with vested economic interest in a public resource.

All parties are to blame. It's a collective cluster#$&!. Science has it's hands full dealing with the complexities of fisheries management but bad data from science isn't helping matters. And please don't start lecturing about Peer Review. MRIP is admittedly an absolute unmitigated disaster. Landings and discard mortality percentages are at best a guess and they have statistics discard mortality rates are 2 to 3 times higher in the commercial fishery than reported but that data gets swept under the carpet. Recruitment levels are a complete guess and assigned weight values by age classes landed for the recreational sector, if anyone bothers to research it, are 20% - 60% higher than the same assigned weights for the commercial sector. Higher and with greater disparities for the age classes that make up the majority of annual landings.

Example, a 4-year old fish caught by North Carolina has an assigned weight factor of 1.99 lbs. in the last year of statistics. Same 4-year old fish caught recreationally has a weight factor assigned of 3.15 lbs. meaning the recreational sector has a 59% greater weight factor for 4-year old fish than NC. Adding insult to injury, most of NC's commercial catch occurs in the winter from local waters meaning they're harvesting the same body of fish as the recreational sector so why would assigned weights be different. Numbers should be identical between sectors. What that one issue, which no one focuses on much less even knows about means, is if 2 million fish consisting entirely of 4-year old fish were caught recreationally the sector would be charged 6.3 millions lbs. towards it's annual quota. If those same 2 million fish were caught by NC commercially, the commercial sector would be charged only 3.98 million lbs. toward their quota for the same number of fish harvested based on Peer Reviewed models. The problem is consistent but slightly less variant, with commercial values from Virginia through Maine. Think about the impact this one issue has on quotas and allocations every year between the recreational and commercial sector. It's simply not possible to have that degree of difference in weight values per age class between sectors harvesting the same biomass of fish but it's another means of allocating more of this fishery to the commercial sector at the recreational sector's detriment. Back in the 80's and 90's when there was a southern Chesapeake stock which NC and Virginia destroyed, age classes may have had weight variances from the northern biomass based on growth rates, available forage, genetics etc. Today, everyone is harvesting the SNE / MA biomass and weight values should be identical across the board.

This inconsistency brings up another very important issue with how this fishery and others are being managed. Should weight be the primary focus of landings and mortality statistics. Does the harvest of a 2 lb. male have the same impact on the fishery as the harvest of a 2 lb. female. You would think not. SSFFF tried years ago introducing a gender based model to NMFS which was shot down by Peer Review because of their approach, not the sensibility of that argument. What's more important to the sustainability of the summer flounder stock or any stock, gender balance, weight or size? I'd argue gender balance, a healthy spawning biomass as well as protection of the spawn. The regulations don't protect any of those three. It's exactly the question baseballman asked in his post, why is protection of breeders and the spawn in the striped bass fishery important but not with the summer flounder stock. A question NMFS, ASMFC and MAMFC refuse to answer or address. Until gender composition is addressed in models, protection of the spawning stock, the spawn itself and commercial waste in future regulations, results will continue to disappoint and the stock itself will struggle sustaining the pressures and risks year round harvest poses to the fishery.

Much of this relates to data science produces so while I agree everyone involved in this process has culpability for the disastrous results we've seen, federal and state politics certainly included, science is certainly not the holy grail you believe it to be. If data they develop is ignored, it's not on science but when statistics used between sectors or on it's own makes no sense, it's science's flawed data decisions are being based on. The process is an absolute mess top to bottom needing a complete overhaul.

[Gerry Zagorski]

The whole situation is a disaster. Regulations are insane, the data is extremely flawed and state government doesn't even care enough to fill vacant council positions. The latter is really all you need to know about where the priorities are...elsewhere.

On a more anecdotal level, I'm a somewhat young fisherman. My entire life the striped bass regulations included a keeper starting at 28" and a bonus fish...how can you tell me the data supports keeping that the same every year? Now its a 3-inch slot to protect oversize females...which to me is funny, because as the fluke limit creeps up, we are DECIMATING the spawning size female fluke population.

On top of this, there is also a painfully obvious fact that there is no lobby or organization that has its act together enough to represent the interests of recreational fisherman. Obviously the commercial fishery is a billion dollar global business - but it should dawn on the tackle shops, brands, head/charter/six pack captains and even local politicians in places that still have a fishing economy left to band together to fund pushing change.

About the only national organization I know of that represents recreational fishing interest is the American Sportfish Association which you may also know as Keep America Fishing as well as Take Me Fishing https://asafishing.org/ They also run Icast which is the largest fishing trade show in the country.

They are funded by businesses involved in the both the salt and freshwater recreational fishing industry like boat, tackle and accessory manufactures, retailers and wholesalers. The funds are used to promote fishing education and awareness, fishing access and they have Government Affairs people assigned to every region in the country to try and influence legislative issues.

Not sure how well they are funded compared to the commercial side but they are pretty active. One example here in NJ is their involvement in the Greenwood Lake Access issue and on a regional level, the Vessel Speed Restrictions.