What is About to Happen with Striped Bass

[Gerry Zagorski]

Have you all heard about Amendment 7 movement that is currently under consideration for Striped Bass??

Here is one piece of it :

"The Draft Amendment proposes options to address the following issues: management triggers, recreational release mortality, stock rebuilding plan, and conservation equivalency. These issues were identified during the public scoping process for Amendment 7 as critically important to help rebuild the stock and update the management program"

I don't know about you but I'd say the stocks are in great shape here in NJ thanks to the conservation measures we all suffered though in the 80s and 90s and the fishery has improved ever since.


Here in NJ we have no commercial fishing for Stripers. Last year we implemented circle hooks to improve mortality rates and had our regulations changed for the size fish we could keep. In the Spring and Fall if you tried, you could hardly not catch one and those in the know could catch them all through the summer. So is this fishery actually in trouble??


Yes, there are some issues in the Chesapeake stock but not here. Our area is practically polluted with Stripers and some like me think at the detriment of other fish like Bluefish, Weakfish and Winter Founder ... So what now, we all suffer again?

Amendment 7 is now moving forward and public comments are due by April 15th... You can comment and write in what your opinion is but here's mine and if you agree
- Please address it to comments@asmfc.org with the subject line Draft Amendment 7

As a recreational fishermen in NJ, I see first hand that the Striped Bass Fishery is in great shape. They are practically caught at will during the spring and fall seasons and in certain areas of our state, they are caught all through the summer. I also think the measures that were imposed two years ago have met the needed reductions and that the 2022 bench stock assessment will likely show this.

While I would support further and more restrictive measures if they were needed, that is not the case in NJ. I do understand that there are issues in the Chesapeake Bay area stocks so I would suggest focusing further conservation measures there.

[hammer4reel]

Have you all heard about Amendment 7 movement that is currently under consideration for Striped Bass??

Here is one piece of it :

"The Draft Amendment proposes options to address the following issues: management triggers, recreational release mortality, stock rebuilding plan, and conservation equivalency. These issues were identified during the public scoping process for Amendment 7 as critically important to help rebuild the stock and update the management program"

I don't know about you but I'd say the stocks are in great shape here in NJ thanks to the conservation measures we all suffered though in the 80s and 90s and the fishery has improved ever since.


Here in NJ we have no commercial fishing for Stripers. Last year we implemented circle hooks to improve mortality rates and had our regulations changed for the size fish we could keep. In the Spring and Fall if you tried, you could hardly not catch one and those in the know could catch them all through the summer. So is this fishery actually in trouble??


Yes, there are some issues in the Chesapeake stock but not here. Our area is practically polluted with Stripers and some like me think at the detriment of other fish like Bluefish, Weakfish and Winter Founder ... So what now, we all suffer again?

Amendment 7 is now moving forward and public comments are due by April 15th... You can comment and write in what your opinion is but here's mine and if you agree
- Please address it to comments@asmfc.org with the subject line Draft Amendment 7

As a recreational fishermen in NJ, I see first hand that the Striped Bass Fishery is in great shape. They are practically caught at will during the spring and fall seasons and in certain areas of our state, they are caught all through the summer. I also think the measures that were imposed two years ago have met the needed reductions and that the 2022 bench stock assessment will likely show this.

While I would support further and more restrictive measures if they were needed, that is not the case in NJ. I do understand that there are issues in the Chesapeake Bay area stocks so I would suggest focusing further conservation measures there.


Striped bass fishing is phenomenal in about 10% of NJ (as good as it gets )
The other 90 % doesn’t have 20% of the fishery it had just 5 years ago , as those fish come from the Chesapeake stocks .

States south of NJ is what damaged those stocks , not NJ fisherman , but to say NJ doesn’t restriction is silly .

What needs to be done is to have the state split into zones . The northern fishery treated with a more liberal bag limit , and decrease it as it moves south .

Many of our fisheries would benefit areas having difffernt framework to the seasons instead of an all or nothing statewide .

Earlier fluke start south , later fluke end North Jersey etc .

Problem is there is no fisheries management that works in all areas being covered by the same blanket .

.
.

[dakota560]

Dan you make good points but in a fishery with a north south migration and unknown boundaries of the exact range of the various stocks, the chance of fisheries management implementing zoned regulations personally I think is next to impossible. When it comes down to votes, the individual states wouldn't allow it as everyone is protecting their own turf and I don't believe for a second marine fisheries would even consider what your suggesting. The points you make are too logical so they probably won't be considered.

Gerry, stripers eat other species as do all fish in the food chain, precisely why most stocks have a 20% - 25% natural mortality rate assumed for predation in their stock assessments. Bluefish populations were more impacted by idiots stuffing 30 - 50 fish in a burlap sack letting them bake on deck with no ice on party boats than predation from bass ever has. Don't think I've ever caught a bass with a bluefish in it's stomach. This year was probably one of the best bluefish runs in recent memory even with the abundance of bass in the area as you point out.

Winter flounder definitely fall victim to bass but that stock was destroyed by commercial netting years ago for no other reason. For years both the winter flounder and bass fisheries were abundant and co-existed. In the spring when the blues and bass started flooding into our area, winter flounder high tailed it east to their summer grounds. When the summer flounder fishery crashed in the eighties and commercials targeted deep water winter flounder to compensate, right then the fate of that fishery was sealed and the stock has never rebounded nor will it. While I've caught bass with small fluke and winter flounder in their stomachs over the years, it's been far and few in between.

The millions of spike weakfish that pass us by in the fall every year, as discussed in the thread last year, become collateral damage to the southern shrimping operations more than the impacts predation from bass will ever have in my opinion. Years ago we had thriving bass and weakfish populations which complemented one another. Purse seining, major over harvest of breeders in the Chesapeake and the carnage caused by southern shrimping operations is why that fishery was destroyed and hasn't rebounded in spite of respectable recruitment statistics.

The other two issues effecting bass, as you mentioned, is agriculture and over urbanization has turned the Chesapeake into a cesspool. Destroy the breeding grounds of a fishery, you destroy the stock. To compound matters, it's well documented how one company, Cooke Inc., has wreaked havoc on bunker stocks from netting operations inside and around the Chesapeake. Three major problems that creates. First how many bass become collateral damage to their netting. Number has to be off the charts. Second is we're taking away the most important forage fish on the east coast so one company can make millions selling it as fertilizer, bait and feed for salmon farms in Canada. Third is bunker are the filter feeders of the ocean, especially the Chesapeake, and the netting taking place inside the Chesapeake of this vitally important resource is no doubt a major contributing factor to the water quality issues the Chesapeake is struggling with.

[hammer4reel]

Tom ,
The fairly close understand the area where the fish merge and move east after the spawn .

The second portion out of NJ control is while those fish are east of us . Where both bio masses stay July through October the main body of fish will now be Hudson strain .
With less Chesapeake fish in that mix the pressure of those states east of us then will fall on the Hudson fish as that’s what’s available .

It’s a domino effect they seem to be trying to protect for all states .
Hopefully the closures don’t become too extreme as to totally limit our fishery while the fish are here in NJ .

I would like to see the lower mortality CR stay open and not a full targeting closure as has also been discussed .

.

[Capt Sal]

Tom ,
The fairly close understand the area where the fish merge and move east after the spawn .

The second portion out of NJ control is while those fish are east of us . Where both bio masses stay July through October the main body of fish will now be Hudson strain .
With less Chesapeake fish in that mix the pressure of those states east of us then will fall on the Hudson fish as that’s what’s available .

It’s a domino effect they seem to be trying to protect for all states .
Hopefully the closures don’t become too extreme as to totally limit our fishery while the fish are here in NJ .

I would like to see the lower mortality CR stay open and not a full targeting closure as has also been discussed .

.
These are absolutely Hudson strain stripers. When things were happening in 1998- 2005 the Stripers migrated to the back of the bay staged then used the Arthur Kill to go to the Hudson. The fishing was tremendous and close. We never left the bay until June when the spawned out Chessy fish would show up ocean side. Chesapeake Bay has different bag limits because they are a "producer state'' ? So are NJ and NY. Following the science has become laughable in many ways. We don't need coolers full of bass just dinner and fun. I think this will be another up hill battle???

[dakota560]

Tom ,
The fairly close understand the area where the fish merge and move east after the spawn .
.

Dan I should have worded my response better. No doubt people on the water and in the know understand range and movement of these different stocks. Just don't think the suits and lab coats who can't grasp simple concepts will ever be able to factor this in to future regulations nor do I think the states will work together to approve that methodology. Part of the problem is there's I believe 14 states / organizations with equal say on the Commission / Council regardless of their proportionate share of the quota who always put personal agendas before the health of the fishery. I agree with your concept, just don't see it passing the gauntlet of political, economic and personal agendas fisheries management prioritizes over the health of these stocks.

[AndyS]

Polluted with Striped Bass ? What happened to the spring back bay clamming in the last 5 years, what about all the reports out of the Cape May rips ?
I've seen what I think a huge drop in striped bass in the last 15 years, I may be wrong but surf fishing isn't nearly as good as it used to be. The party boat fall fishing used to go on for 3 months, now it seems like it's half of that.
I'd be more worried about sand sharks eating everything instead of striped bass. Probably the most heavily poached fish on the East Coast, just looks at the busts locally.

[Gerry Zagorski]

While I do agree that Sand Sharks are an issue, the Stripers in our area are as prolific in the lower NY Bay, Sandy Hook Bay and Raritan Bay as they have ever been.

How about some critical thinking here? Yes, there are land based poachers which also tells you these fish are plentiful. However, should law abiding people have to suffer with stricter regulations as a result of people who don't obey the law? No, we need to enforce our laws!

This whole thing for me boils down to reasonable access and having the ability to make a personal choice. If the stocks are healthy we should have reasonable access to it and allow law abiding people to make a choice to fish for them, catch and release or keep a fish it they'd like. If you have all sorts of unreasonable regulations our access and your choices have been taken away.

Choices are a good thing, you should be allowed to make them as long as they are not at the detriment of others. Government over regulation and mandates eliminates our abilities to make our own choices, which I think are a bad thing.

[reason162]

If the stocks are healthy...

But stocks are not healthy, in fact SB stocks are in the biggest trouble since the last collapse - the mythical "offshore" migrations notwithstanding.

It's high time the charter industry recognizes that SB can make them much more money if treated as a gamefish rather than meat fish. They can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

[Skolmann]

Polluted with Striped Bass ? What happened to the spring back bay clamming in the last 5 years, what about all the reports out of the Cape May rips ?
I've seen what a think a huge drop in striped bass in the last 15 years, I may be wrong but surf fishing isn't nearly as good as it used to be. The party boat fall fishing used to go on for 3 months, now it seems like it's half of that.
I'd be more worried about sand sharks eating everything instead of striped bass. Probably the most heavily poached fish on the East Coast, just looks at the busts locally.

Clamming in the Raritan Bay Area pretty much ceased to exist after sandy wiped out & covered the clam beds. There used always be a clammer working off the tip of the Hook or by Romers prior to Sandy but since the beds were destroyed/covered you not longer see them.

The Cape May Rips suffered the same fate as the Sandy Hook Rips. Change in current (either man made or natural) have pretty much ‘flattened” both sets of rips.

Party boats have been running for and catching stripers the past few falls from October until after the New Years. Heck, it’s not that hard or uncommon to catch stripers from the surf in the summer fishing the early mornings and later afternoons. In addition, bass fishing (& catching) in the back bays is an all summer affair now.

[Capt Sal]

But stocks are not healthy, in fact SB stocks are in the biggest trouble since the last collapse - the mythical "offshore" migrations notwithstanding.

It's high time the charter industry recognizes that SB can make them much more money if treated as a gamefish rather than meat fish. They can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

This is about striped bass not all stocks. Stripers have come back big time in our area. This is evident by the numbers and size. 50 pounders are common .Has it changed ?? For sure because the clamming is a thing of the past. In this day and age top water and mo jo fishing has taken over. The bag limit is down to one fish 28-38''. This had to help build the stock. There is an off shore migration even if you don't believe it. Before the three mile EEZ BS i was six miles off Sandy hook with a charter in the first week of July and found a migrating school five miles long! These were Chesapeake Bass!! Two different fisheries and should be managed two different ways.There aren't many PB boats left and the people that frequent them are half die hards fishermen and half tourists. People with rental rods do not catch tons of bass they are just out for a good time. Once they take something away it is hard to get it back!

[hammer4reel]

This is about striped bass not all stocks. Stripers have come back big time in our area. This is evident by the numbers and size. 50 pounders are common .Has it changed ?? For sure because the clamming is a thing of the past. In this day and age top water and mo jo fishing has taken over. The bag limit is down to one fish 28-38''. This had to help build the stock. There is an off shore migration even if you don't believe it. Before the three mile EEZ BS i was six miles off Sandy hook with a charter in the first week of July and found a migrating school five miles long! These were Chesapeake Bass!! Two different fisheries and should be managed two different ways.There aren't many PB boats left and the people that frequent them are half die hards fishermen and half tourists. People with rental rods do not catch tons of bass they are just out for a good time. Once they take something away it is hard to get it back!
Sal , the RB fishery is incredible, the ocean bite is almost as bad as it was during the crash .
Chesapeake strain has been crushed by the states south of us .
They don’t even get weigh ins at some of the major fall tournaments that used to get hundreds of fish weighed .

Once both bodies of fish move east of Long Island all the pressure that used to be split 50/50 among both sets of fish , all pressure will be on Hudson fish .
It won’t take long for that strain to suffer also .
Chesapeake fishery needs to be made strong for both strains to stay solid .
At least right now those fishing the NY bite area have it good .but the rest of NJ striper fishing is nothing like it had been .
Hopefully the release of all the breeding cows bumps it back up quick

[dales529]

As usual so many things to factor in here: Many great responses from those in the "know" or as Lab would say those that "no"

"The Draft Amendment proposes options to address the following issues: management triggers, recreational release mortality, stock rebuilding plan, and conservation equivalency. These issues were identified during the public scoping process for Amendment 7 as critically important to help rebuild the stock and update the management program"

So assuming we all agree the Chesapeake Fishery is the main culprit then why cant we see a Draft Amendment that addresses that issue, instead we see a Draft to address recreational fisheries which as stated by most are the least of the issue.

So assuming we all agree that RB and the Hudson Stock is in great shape WHY do we need to alter that after we addressed mortality and reduced bag / size . I do agree that if they dont do anything on the Chesapeake stock then eventually the Hudson stock could / will suffer but again address the MAIN problem first.

The Offshore outside the EEZ migration is FAR from "mythical" . Many of us had to leave seabass grounds outside of the EEZ to stay away from massive schools of SB. It just is real.

At some point you can read until you cant read anymore but have to use your eyes as we all do when out on the water. YES RB has a great spring / fall run, YES Ocean side in Belmar to PP and South had a great fall run. YES Stopping to C/R or catch SB OCEAN Side was very common place on most trips on the way in this past Sept / Oct.

Most don't comment here but I believe most PB / Charter guys would love not to pay their mates extra to fillet SB and release everything IF the CUSTOMER base allowed it. Every business that succeeds puts their customers first and try to get as many customers as possible to pay their bills, salaries and hopefully turn a reasonable profit margin. IF the recreational Charter Customer BASE agreed to C/R and the for hire fleet could get their trips in on a currently exceptional NJ SB stock I believe they all would!

I just think common sense and what is seen on the water sooner or later has to factor in to management decisions , I know they try but this Draft amendment should focus on the main problem first.

Also trying to do more research on the predatory issue with Weakfish, Winter Flounder, Ling etc but hard to not think the resurgence of SB in the late 80's early 90's didn't have an impact.

[dakota560]

Also trying to do more research on the predatory issue with Weakfish, Winter Flounder, Ling etc but hard to not think the resurgence of SB in the late 80's early 90's didn't have an impact.

Dave agree with just about everything you said other than if anyone believes weakfish, winter flounder, ling failures were due to anything other than commercial exploitation would be mistaken. Winter flounder had a built in plan to avoid striped bass and bluefish predation. Literally, and you know this to be the case, as soon as bass and blues started flooding in to the bays from the south in the spring, winter flounder immediately flooded out of the bays and inshore spots like the Cedars and headed out of Dodge to their offshore summer grounds around the Mudhole. Draggers when summer flounder collapsed late eighties set their sights on winter flounder and like ling, whiting and cod in our area it was game over. Weakfish were destroyed by commercial and recreational insanity between fall purse seiners during their annual migration much like striped bass, taking too many breeders from the Delaware and the shrimping operations down south. Well documented for anyone who wants to do a little reading.

Ling and whiting, well anyone around at the time knows the tragic story of this fishery. Absolute unabated netting by small mesh trawlers leaving literally acres upon acres of dead juvenile fish in the Mudhole killed a fishery which was as prolific as they come. An extremely important commercial and recreational fishery disappeared overnight because the regulations didn't protect the stock. Any stock with a commercial presence, year round fishery, harvests larger higher market value breeders, kills the juvenile classes in the process and offers no protection to the spawn or stock in general won't survive. No better example possibly than ling and whiting and the rate this fishery was destroyed was staggering.

For years bass, blues, winter flounder, ling, whiting, cod and weakfish all co-existed and flourished at the same time. As long as there's ample supply of bunker around, bass, blues and weakfish will focus on that food source more than they'll ever focus on other species. Cleaned a lot of bass with bunker, crabs, eels, sand eels, lobsters and even manta shrimp in their stomachs in fish coming in from offshore areas but don't think I ever found a ling, whiting, weakfish and only a very few winter and or summer flounder in their stomachs. Read the attached article, the true story of another imminent collapse in the Chesapeake striper stock due to the greed of one company with the contributing impact of removing nature's natural filtration system from the bay and ocean. And we allow it because someone's pockets are being greased.

https://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/2019/12/26/cooke-admits-illegal-fishing-for-menhadden-in-chesapeake-bay/

We continue putting economics and greed before fisheries management, we'll continue seeing one stock after another succumb to our stupidity.

[Skolmann]

Dave agree with just about everything you said other than if anyone believes weakfish, winter flounder, ling failures were due to anything other than commercial exploitation would be mistaken. Winter flounder had a built in plan to avoid striped bass and bluefish predation. Literally, and you know this to be the case, as soon as bass and blues started flooding in to the bays from the south in the spring, winter flounder immediately flooded out of the bays and inshore spots like the Cedars and headed out of Dodge to their offshore summer grounds around the Mudhole. Draggers when summer flounder collapsed late eighties set their sights on winter flounder and like ling, whiting and cod in our area it was game over. Weakfish were destroyed by commercial and recreational insanity between fall purse seiners during their annual migration much like striped bass, taking too many breeders from the Delaware and the shrimping operations down south. Well documented for anyone who wants to do a little reading.

Ling and whiting, well anyone around at the time knows the tragic story of this fishery Absolute unabated netting by small mesh trawlers leaving literally acres upon acres of dead juvenile fish in the Mudhole killed a fishery which was as prolific as they come. An extremely important commercial and recreational fishery disappeared overnight because the regulations didn't protect the stock. Any stock with a commercial presence, year round fishery, harvests larger higher market value breeders, kills the juvenile classes in the process and offers no protection to the spawn or stock in general won't survive. No better example possibly than ling and whiting and the rate this fishery was destroyed was staggering.

For years bass, blues, winter flounder, ling, whiting, cod and weakfish all co-existed and flourished at the same time. As long as there's ample supply of bunker around, bass, blues and weakfish will focus on that food source more than they'll ever focus on other species. Cleaned a lot of bass with bunker, crabs, eels, sand eels, lobsters and even manta shrimp in their stomachs in fish coming in from offshore areas but don't think I ever found a ling, whiting, weakfish and only a very few winter and or summer flounder in their stomachs. Read the attached article, the true story of another imminent collapse in the Chesapeake striper stock due to the greed of one company with the contributing impact of removing nature's natural filtration system from the bay and ocean. And we allow it because someone's pockets are being greased.

https://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/2019/12/26/cooke-admits-illegal-fishing-for-menhadden-in-chesapeake-bay/

We continue putting economics and greed before fisheries management, we'll continue seeing one stock after another succumb to our stupidity.

👍 Nailed It

[Gerry Zagorski]

Dave agree with just about everything you said other than if anyone believes weakfish, winter flounder, ling failures were due to anything other than commercial exploitation would be mistaken. Winter flounder had a built in plan to avoid striped bass and bluefish predation. Literally, and you know this to be the case, as soon as bass and blues started flooding in to the bays from the south in the spring, winter flounder immediately flooded out of the bays and inshore spots like the Cedars and headed out of Dodge to their offshore summer grounds around the Mudhole. Draggers when summer flounder collapsed late eighties set their sights on winter flounder and like ling, whiting and cod in our area it was game over. Weakfish were destroyed by commercial and recreational insanity between fall purse seiners during their annual migration much like striped bass, taking too many breeders from the Delaware and the shrimping operations down south. Well documented for anyone who wants to do a little reading.

Ling and whiting, well anyone around at the time knows the tragic story of this fishery. Absolute unabated netting by small mesh trawlers leaving literally acres upon acres of dead juvenile fish in the Mudhole killed a fishery which was as prolific as they come. An extremely important commercial and recreational fishery disappeared overnight because the regulations didn't protect the stock. Any stock with a commercial presence, year round fishery, harvests larger higher market value breeders, kills the juvenile classes in the process and offers no protection to the spawn or stock in general won't survive. No better example possibly than ling and whiting and the rate this fishery was destroyed was staggering.

For years bass, blues, winter flounder, ling, whiting, cod and weakfish all co-existed and flourished at the same time. As long as there's ample supply of bunker around, bass, blues and weakfish will focus on that food source more than they'll ever focus on other species. Cleaned a lot of bass with bunker, crabs, eels, sand eels, lobsters and even manta shrimp in their stomachs in fish coming in from offshore areas but don't think I ever found a ling, whiting, weakfish and only a very few winter and or summer flounder in their stomachs. Read the attached article, the true story of another imminent collapse in the Chesapeake striper stock due to the greed of one company with the contributing impact of removing nature's natural filtration system from the bay and ocean. And we allow it because someone's pockets are being greased.

https://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/2019/12/26/cooke-admits-illegal-fishing-for-menhadden-in-chesapeake-bay/

We continue putting economics and greed before fisheries management, we'll continue seeing one stock after another succumb to our stupidity.

Good stuff here!

[hammer4reel]

As usual so many things to factor in here: Many great responses from those in the "know" or as Lab would say those that "no"

"The Draft Amendment proposes options to address the following issues: management triggers, recreational release mortality, stock rebuilding plan, and conservation equivalency. These issues were identified during the public scoping process for Amendment 7 as critically important to help rebuild the stock and update the management program"

So assuming we all agree the Chesapeake Fishery is the main culprit then why cant we see a Draft Amendment that addresses that issue, instead we see a Draft to address recreational fisheries which as stated by most are the least of the issue.

So assuming we all agree that RB and the Hudson Stock is in great shape WHY do we need to alter that after we addressed mortality and reduced bag / size . I do agree that if they dont do anything on the Chesapeake stock then eventually the Hudson stock could / will suffer but again address the MAIN problem first.

The Offshore outside the EEZ migration is FAR from "mythical" . Many of us had to leave seabass grounds outside of the EEZ to stay away from massive schools of SB. It just is real.

At some point you can read until you cant read anymore but have to use your eyes as we all do when out on the water. YES RB has a great spring / fall run, YES Ocean side in Belmar to PP and South had a great fall run. YES Stopping to C/R or catch SB OCEAN Side was very common place on most trips on the way in this past Sept / Oct.

Most don't comment here but I believe most PB / Charter guys would love not to pay their mates extra to fillet SB and release everything IF the CUSTOMER base allowed it. Every business that succeeds puts their customers first and try to get as many customers as possible to pay their bills, salaries and hopefully turn a reasonable profit margin. IF the recreational Charter Customer BASE agreed to C/R and the for hire fleet could get their trips in on a currently exceptional NJ SB stock I believe they all would!

I just think common sense and what is seen on the water sooner or later has to factor in to management decisions , I know they try but this Draft amendment should focus on the main problem first.

Also trying to do more research on the predatory issue with Weakfish, Winter Flounder, Ling etc but hard to not think the resurgence of SB in the late 80's early 90's didn't have an impact.

Dave .
Look at this video , just about 4 years ago . Look at the fleet of boats .
That’s what is was like when the ocean bass fishing was good .
And it wasn’t a few big schools , is was over a month of solid fishing .
Fish spread out for 20 plus miles .
And there were still the offshore fish besides.
If you ever followed the fishery inVA all winter seeing thousands of fish caught daily. To no one even running trips you would understand how bad the Chesapeake crash is right now.

https://youtu.be/K8Bk-zHxGcc
.

[Gumada]

If you read through the posts on this thread or any of the other pertaining to stock numbers, regulations, biomass numbers and collapse of numerous fisheries there is one common denominator. Commercial interest in the species. Like an alien horror movie, they move from species to species wiping them out then moving on to another, never stopping until it is not monetarily feasible to continue hammering the specific target.

Bunker
Winter Flounder
Weakfish
Summer Flounder
Sea Bass
Stripers
Tuna
Swordfish
Sharks
Bluefish

To name a few.

We need people in fisheries management to acknowledge there is a problem and take steps to resolve it. But not at the recreational fisherman’s expense..

Possibly try another approach than attempting to get them to listen to common sense. Find out who in the political arena are being targeted by the lobbyists and ensuring their political careers are limited. Electing only those who can understand and have an interest in restoring fish stocks which would benefit all involved...

[dales529]

Dave .
Look at this video , just about 4 years ago . Look at the fleet of boats .
That’s what is was like when the ocean bass fishing was good .
And it wasn’t a few big schools , is was over a month of solid fishing .
Fish spread out for 20 plus miles .
And there were still the offshore fish besides.
If you ever followed the fishery inVA all winter seeing thousands of fish caught daily. To no one even running trips you would understand how bad the Chesapeake crash is right now.

https://youtu.be/K8Bk-zHxGcc
.

Dan
Thanks, Great video and your ride is sweet as always. Look I agree the Chesapeake is bad and my point was the Draft Amendment / public comment should address that and that alone rather than putting that rebuild on the backs of recreational fishermen especially in NJ.
Also 2020 and 2021 had much less fishing effort south of Raritan Bay due to Covid. Those that went enjoyed good ocean fishing for weeks. I say this in caution of my own statement but just because there isn't a fleet doesn't mean the fish weren't there and I will leave it at that.

[dales529]

Dave agree with just about everything you said other than if anyone believes weakfish, winter flounder, ling failures were due to anything other than commercial exploitation would be mistaken. Winter flounder had a built in plan to avoid striped bass and bluefish predation. Literally, and you know this to be the case, as soon as bass and blues started flooding in to the bays from the south in the spring, winter flounder immediately flooded out of the bays and inshore spots like the Cedars and headed out of Dodge to their offshore summer grounds around the Mudhole. Draggers when summer flounder collapsed late eighties set their sights on winter flounder and like ling, whiting and cod in our area it was game over. Weakfish were destroyed by commercial and recreational insanity between fall purse seiners during their annual migration much like striped bass, taking too many breeders from the Delaware and the shrimping operations down south. Well documented for anyone who wants to do a little reading.

Ling and whiting, well anyone around at the time knows the tragic story of this fishery. Absolute unabated netting by small mesh trawlers leaving literally acres upon acres of dead juvenile fish in the Mudhole killed a fishery which was as prolific as they come. An extremely important commercial and recreational fishery disappeared overnight because the regulations didn't protect the stock. Any stock with a commercial presence, year round fishery, harvests larger higher market value breeders, kills the juvenile classes in the process and offers no protection to the spawn or stock in general won't survive. No better example possibly than ling and whiting and the rate this fishery was destroyed was staggering.

For years bass, blues, winter flounder, ling, whiting, cod and weakfish all co-existed and flourished at the same time. As long as there's ample supply of bunker around, bass, blues and weakfish will focus on that food source more than they'll ever focus on other species. Cleaned a lot of bass with bunker, crabs, eels, sand eels, lobsters and even manta shrimp in their stomachs in fish coming in from offshore areas but don't think I ever found a ling, whiting, weakfish and only a very few winter and or summer flounder in their stomachs. Read the attached article, the true story of another imminent collapse in the Chesapeake striper stock due to the greed of one company with the contributing impact of removing nature's natural filtration system from the bay and ocean. And we allow it because someone's pockets are being greased.

https://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/2019/12/26/cooke-admits-illegal-fishing-for-menhadden-in-chesapeake-bay/

We continue putting economics and greed before fisheries management, we'll continue seeing one stock after another succumb to our stupidity.

Tom
You are much better than me breaking down the numbers and reading data to support your posts. No where am I saying that the decline of these fisheries isn't from commercial / bad recreational management structure.

I get what you are saying but Striped bass in numbers were non existent in the 70's and 80's / didn't start showing up again until around 1992 / 94 ish. I used to surf fish with Ernie from Normandy Bait and Tackle and that ole timer could pick a cut or a small rip as soon as we hit the beach again when the SB returned.

Having said that the 70's and 80's until early 90's the other species I mentioned were abundant without SB except RB where there were some resident SB I guess from the Hudson so those winter flounder went to the cedars and mudhole although Manasquan River never suffered that same fate.
When I was running my boat privately in the early 80's we fished all the known spots : Manasquan River March through June into July for Winter Flounder, Fluke / weakfish within sight of MI inside of the mile buoy and 10 miles in either direction. Blues/ Fluke Klondike, Manasquan Ridge. The Slough, Humpty Dumpty, Seaside Lump, Barnaget Ridge etc etc .

When SB came back in force those River and inshore spots became devoid of weakfish and winter flounder.

Not disputing your findings just talking from my personal experience. Next time we get together which was always and I hope sooner than later look forward to more discussion!

[dales529]

If you read through the posts on this thread or any of the other pertaining to stock numbers, regulations, biomass numbers and collapse of numerous fisheries there is one common denominator. Commercial interest in the species. Like an alien horror movie, they move from species to species wiping them out then moving on to another, never stopping until it is not monetarily feasible to continue hammering the specific target.

Bunker
Winter Flounder
Weakfish
Summer Flounder
Sea Bass
Stripers
Tuna
Swordfish
Sharks
Bluefish

To name a few.

We need people in fisheries management to acknowledge there is a problem and take steps to resolve it. But not at the recreational fisherman’s expense..

Possibly try another approach than attempting to get them to listen to common sense. Find out who in the political arena are being targeted by the lobbyists and ensuring their political careers are limited. Electing only those who can understand and have an interest in restoring fish stocks which would benefit all involved...

First off in either party they ALL have lobbyists as do we recreational fishermen / women groups. . Over the years both parties have had their hands on the reins with little to no success . It would be great to only elect those with interest in restoring fish stocks but people vote mainly by party and "other" issues so don't see that happening anytime in my lifetime anyway , maybe yours I hope. I do get your point!

[dakota560]

Dave,

Don't think this has anything to do with data or numbers but observations from on water experiences as you mentioned. Just wanted to point out from the initial post that I don't believe SB are having an impact on the three species mentioned, winter flounder, weakfish or bluefish.

I agree with your comments about the differences between Shark River SR, Manasquan Inlet MI and Raritan Bay RB and potential interactions of these stocks especially winter flounder. The sequence for many years was bass from the Hudson stock would enter RB. At or around the same time, the front runner blues with big heads and lean bodies would arrive oceanside. Those two events always preceded SB from the Chesie stock arriving oceanside after they spawned down south and started their northerly migration. As soon as blues and bass showed up in numbers in RB, the winter flounder within a few days or weeks hightailed it east. SR and MI were less effected because the Hudson stock didn't impact them but when the Chesie stock showed up winter flounder were not waiting around and also headed for deeper water, the Farms, Mudhole etc. It's just the Chesie stock was always a month or so behind the RB / Hudson River stock so timing of stock interactions was different. That's why winter flounder having an east west migration pattern triggered by rising water temperatures and structure never were around long enough to be impacted by SB which have a north south migration route at a different time of year and prefer different forage species. Just don't think one had or has a significant impact regarding predation on the other.

Ling and whiting for years existed with SB. They were clearly destroyed by small mesh netting and commercial greed. Again two more stock with different migration patterns. One east west, the other north south. The numbers of both stocks, ling and whiting, in this area were numbers I don't believe any of us will ever see again in our lifetime with any stock and when they were targeted by both domestic and foreign commercial operations were wiped out within a year or two. Since you had a boat and I know you did a lot of off shore fishing, you've seen the acres of dead whiting and ling floating in the mudhole area as collateral damage to the larger fish being harvested. Thousands if not tens of thousands of juveniles wasted by commercial operations. Absolute disgrace and a practice I continued seeing over this past decade. Short term focus by commercial operators to maximize catch values with no long term conservation appreciation made possible by non-existent regulations to protect the stock killed a fishery which many believed wasn't possible including myself. It's a case study of the sensitivity between commercial exploitation and the health of stocks being targeted commercially, even more so today with the current technologies being employed.

Bluefish again are a cyclical species and I don't believe their numbers have in past or today are impacted by SB. SB presence might impact their migration habits but I don't believe SB are foraging on bluefish to any degree that would impact the strength of the stock. Like I said, I never saw a bluefish in the stomach of a SB and for anyone who fishes for SB you know in many cases the two are found feeding together on bunker schools.

As far as weakfish are concerned, the big breeders were always the first to make a showing in the spring to spawn. The main biomass in my experience was more of a summer presence when bass had already left our waters and were headed out east and north. I remember years on the Long Branch pier in the summer fishing for 5 - 6 lb. weakfish using anchovies caught on sabiki rigs.
By that time, most bass were up in New England waters. In the fall the reverse, the weakfish tended to migrate south earlier than the main biomass of bass which is still the case today. Just never saw the two stocks having similar migration patterns to the extent predation would be an issue. Again just my observations from 30-40 years of fishing.

I still maintain all these stocks years ago co-existed and nature found a balance. Many are casualties of commercial exploitation and there's nothing that will convince me otherwise. No stock, especially inshore stocks with easy access, can be targeted year round, have the spawn completely unprotected, be subject to environmental issue like what the Chesie is going through, have their primary forage decline by 60% and be expected to survive or recover. Cooke Inc should be pushed out of the Chesapeake and their operations managed to allow some safe harbor to bunker stocks for a portion of the year. One conglomerate shouldn't be allowed to corner the market on a natural resource, especially when that resource is being exported to foreign markets, and wreak havoc on environmental and predator species dependent on that food source in the process. When that happens, it can only mean money is changing hands somewhere causing the powers to be to look the other way. We don't start getting our act together, our fishing efforts are going to eventually be limited to catching state stocked 8" trout on opening day. Funny how NJ has such a diverse and robust fresh water fisheries without commercial presence but when it comes to salt water species, as pointed out on this thread, we've lost so many fisheries due to no management or mismanagement and there's a number of species in addition trending in the wrong direction. Why? For those of you who saw Deep Water Horizons.

https://www.google.com/search?q=money+money+money+scene+deep+water+horizo ns&oq=money+money+money+scene+deep+water+horizons&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i22i29i30.10641j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Dave just an observation from the little man and again not a numbers issue.

[dales529]

Dave,

Don't think this has anything to do with data or numbers but observations from on water experiences as you mentioned. Just wanted to point out from the initial post that I don't believe SB are having an impact on the three species mentioned, winter flounder, weakfish or bluefish.

I agree with your comments about the differences between Shark River SR, Manasquan Inlet MI and Raritan Bay RB and potential interactions of these stocks especially winter flounder. The sequence for many years was bass from the Hudson stock would enter RB. At or around the same time, the front runner blues with big heads and lean bodies would arrive oceanside. Those two events always preceded SB from the Chesie stock arriving oceanside after they spawned down south and started their northerly migration. As soon as blues and bass showed up in numbers in RB, the winter flounder within a few days or weeks hightailed it east. SR and MI were less effected because the Hudson stock didn't impact them but when the Chesie stock showed up winter flounder were not waiting around and also headed for deeper water, the Farms, Mudhole etc. It's just the Chesie stock was always a month or so behind the RB / Hudson River stock so timing of stock interactions was different. That's why winter flounder having an east west migration pattern triggered by rising water temperatures and structure never were around long enough to be impacted by SB which have a north south migration route at a different time of year and prefer different forage species. Just don't think one had or has a significant impact regarding predation on the other.

Ling and whiting for years existed with SB. They were clearly destroyed by small mesh netting and commercial greed. Again two more stock with different migration patterns. One east west, the other north south. The numbers of both stocks, ling and whiting, in this area were numbers I don't believe any of us will ever see again in our lifetime with any stock and when they were targeted by both domestic and foreign commercial operations were wiped out within a year or two. Since you had a boat and I know you did a lot of off shore fishing, you've seen the acres of dead whiting and ling floating in the mudhole area as collateral damage to the larger fish being harvested. Thousands if not tens of thousands of juveniles wasted by commercial operations. Absolute disgrace and a practice I continued seeing over this past decade. Short term focus by commercial operators to maximize catch values with no long term conservation appreciation made possible by non-existent regulations to protect the stock killed a fishery which many believed wasn't possible including myself. It's a case study of the sensitivity between commercial exploitation and the health of stocks being targeted commercially, even more so today with the current technologies being employed.

Bluefish again are a cyclical species and I don't believe their numbers have in past or today are impacted by SB. SB presence might impact their migration habits but I don't believe SB are foraging on bluefish to any degree that would impact the strength of the stock. Like I said, I never saw a bluefish in the stomach of a SB and for anyone who fishes for SB you know in many cases the two are found feeding together on bunker schools.

As far as weakfish are concerned, the big breeders were always the first to make a showing in the spring to spawn. The main biomass in my experience was more of a summer presence when bass had already left our waters and were headed out east and north. I remember years on the Long Branch pier in the summer fishing for 5 - 6 lb. weakfish using anchovies caught on sabiki rigs.
By that time, most bass were up in New England waters. In the fall the reverse, the weakfish tended to migrate south earlier than the main biomass of bass which is still the case today. Just never saw the two stocks having similar migration patterns to the extent predation would be an issue. Again just my observations from 30-40 years of fishing.

I still maintain all these stocks years ago co-existed and nature found a balance. Many are casualties of commercial exploitation and there's nothing that will convince me otherwise. No stock, especially inshore stocks with easy access, can be targeted year round, have the spawn completely unprotected, be subject to environmental issue like what the Chesie is going through, have their primary forage decline by 60% and be expected to survive or recover. Cooke Inc should be pushed out of the Chesapeake and their operations managed to allow some safe harbor to bunker stocks for a portion of the year. One conglomerate shouldn't be allowed to corner the market on a natural resource, especially when that resource is being exported to foreign markets, and wreak havoc on environmental and predator species dependent on that food source in the process. When that happens, it can only mean money is changing hands somewhere causing the powers to be to look the other way. We don't start getting our act together, our fishing efforts are going to eventually be limited to catching state stocked 8" trout on opening day. Funny how NJ has such a diverse and robust fresh water fisheries without commercial presence but when it comes to salt water species, as pointed out on this thread, we've lost so many fisheries due to no management or mismanagement and there's a number of species in addition trending in the wrong direction. Why? For those of you who saw Deep Water Horizons.

https://www.google.com/search?q=money+money+money+scene+deep+water+horizo ns&oq=money+money+money+scene+deep+water+horizons&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i22i29i30.10641j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Dave just an observation from the little man and again not a numbers issue.

Tom
All good here and appreciate as always your input!. I just don't think the NJ For Hire fleet can take any more hits based on what is happening in the Chesapeake nor should they. I have always been and will always be for conservation and supportive of saving any species stock when in trouble. As long as it doesn't put any more for hire businesses out of business! Except for those that contribute to the demise of a stock but not seeing that at the recreational level.

[dakota560]

Dave my friend I don't at all disagree with your comments or Dan's initial recommendation about what I'll refer to as zoned regulations. After 5 years of becoming more familiar with this process, I just don't have a lot of faith Federal Fisheries will understand and accept that logic and no faith the ASMFC and MAFMC will consider it the way the states never vote based on what's right for the fishery as opposed to what's right for themselves individually.

Hope in this case I'm wrong but I believe history is on my side.

[hammer4reel]

Tom
All good here and appreciate as always your input!. I just don't think the NJ For Hire fleet can take any more hits based on what is happening in the Chesapeake nor should they. I have always been and will always be for conservation and supportive of saving any species stock when in trouble. As long as it doesn't put any more for hire businesses out of business! Except for those that contribute to the demise of a stock but not seeing that at the recreational level..

Nj fisherman are taking a hit . The New York bight area is the only area still having consistent striper fishing .
That’s a tiny piece of the coast .
Striper demise is NOT because of commercial fishing .
Too many years of the fish getting pounded 11 months out of the year ,
Too many years here in NJ where a 40 pound bass was worth a 2 dollar bonus tag.

Conservation got left on the side for a dock shot of giant egg laden bass .
Tightening the limit didn’t stop the RB area from having a great season .
If anything it allowed guys to catch way more fish than ever there .


But as with every fishery we have NMFS waits too long and then the cuts are huge .

I moved my boat to shark river in 2009 because only a few guys knew there were early runs of giant bass months sooner than the bay guys knew ( most not leaving the bay till the end of June)
The bass fishery Oceanside was on fire from April thru July EVERY DAY.
We haven’t had that fishery in 4 years .
There are good days and lots of bad ones . Miles of bait some days with nothing on them .
Years before there was a bass on every bunker school.
Fall fishery used to be daily from the end of October thru first week of December .different waves of all sizes of bass .
The few shots we had this fall were about 10 percent of the fishery just 4 years ago .

While it’s common knowledge the Chesapeake fishery was hurt mostly south of NJ it was recreational fisherman hammering those fish .

Toughest part is everyone wants to fish when there is the most fish around .
Protecting a closure for the short window they are in NJ is important .
If the fishery doesn’t get a break it’s NJ fisherman that will suffer , as we have them here around the spawn.
Other states east of us won’t even see a closure as they have the bass well after that time .

I really hope with so many big fish being returned that they have enough fry to allow a quick recovery .

.

[dales529]

Dave my friend I don't at all disagree with your comments or Dan's initial recommendation about what I'll refer to as zoned regulations. After 5 years of becoming more familiar with this process, I just don't have a lot of faith Federal Fisheries will understand and accept that logic and no faith the ASMFC and MAFMC will consider it the way the states never vote based on what's right for the fishery as opposed to what's right for themselves individually.

Hope in this case I'm wrong but I believe history is on my side.

I do think to Dan's comment about splitting the state into zones is valid for both Fluke and SB and may indeed happen one day. Probably not anytime soon as it makes too much sense.
New MRIP put 1 million pounds of Fluke on shore based anglers! Sure. I believe in science but the science to regulations as you are aware are very far apart. Those calling for more regulation on SB over what NJ has already done may regret that call.

My point simply stated is if the Chesapeake is the issue then it could be fixed (LOL) I get not easily without disturbing NJ fisheries for SB. Public comments aside on this draft addendum will shut down SB in NJ with closures and restrictive measures that should not be placed on what's left of our for hire fleet even if we called SB a Game Fish.

Unless of course recreational SB anglers in MASS agree to C/R only and book the same trips as always.

[hammer4reel]

Dave , when ever splitting the coast into zones has been brought up .
The answer has always been it’s too hard to enforce zones .

Yet here in NJ we have over 40 deer zones , and 20 turkey zones . North and south waterfowl zones etc .

So IF they wanted to , it would not be that hard to enforce one coastline having a north/south boundary.

.

[dakota560]

Dave , when ever splitting the coast into zones has been brought up .
The answer has always been it’s too hard to enforce zones .

Yet here in NJ we have over 40 deer zones , and 20 turkey zones . North and south waterfowl zones etc .

So IF they wanted to , it would not be that hard to enforce one coastline having a north/south boundary.

.

Danny my friend, my exact point. If they agree to zoned management now they'll in essence contradict earlier stances they've taken on that topic. History has taught us they won't put themselves in that position which means we have management with extreme tunnel vision who will promote stasis in management philosophies at the expense of fisheries as opposed to breaking protocols for the benefit of those same fisheries while potentially putting themselves in a position of being asked to justify past decisions which they will never do.

[Duffman]

.

Toughest part is everyone wants to fish when there is the most fish around .
Protecting a closure for the short window they are in NJ is important .
If the fishery doesn’t get a break it’s NJ fisherman that will suffer , as we have them here around the spawn.



There’s no chance the RB fishery gets a break. I thought last spring was bad (as far a boat traffic) in the back. Ran across private Boat registrations from NJ,NY, PA and CT!

Along with the local head boats and charters that fish.

On top of that the pressure from charters that move north for the spring run.

Just an observation, not a complaint. I realize everyone has to make a living. Hell, I’ve even seen guys posting ads on Craigslist to take guys out on their private rides. Point is these fish have zero chance.

And I didn’t even get into the rampant poaching going on last spring.

[Capt Sal]

There’s no chance the RB fishery gets a break. I thought last spring was bad (as far a boat traffic) in the back. Ran across private Boat registrations from NJ,NY, PA and CT!

Along with the local head boats and charters that fish.

On top of that the pressure from charters that move north for the spring run.

Just an observation, not a complaint. I realize everyone has to make a living. Hell, I’ve even seen guys posting ads on Craigslist to take guys out on their private rides. Point is these fish have zero chance.

And I didn’t even get into the rampant poaching going on last spring.

If the fishery can take the pressure in RB and SHB it is a good thing. One fish per angler is enough and alot of guys release there bass. There will be traffic when ever there is a good run in a calm bay. Just like Quincy Flounder, Delaware bay Weakies but!!!!! The limits back then were too high. Pollution destroyed Quincy and Gill netters wiped out the Spawning Weakfish not anglers. When we had good Winter Flounder runs years ago RB was loaded with boats because small boats can handle it. There will always be poachers no matter what state your in.

[Jsnake4444]

Polluted with Striped Bass ? What happened to the spring back bay clamming in the last 5 years, what about all the reports out of the Cape May rips ?
I've seen what I think a huge drop in striped bass in the last 15 years, I may be wrong but surf fishing isn't nearly as good as it used to be. The party boat fall fishing used to go on for 3 months, now it seems like it's half of that.
I'd be more worried about sand sharks eating everything instead of striped bass. Probably the most heavily poached fish on the East Coast, just looks at the busts locally.

Also being from Southern Jersey I agree. The fishery is a fraction of what it once was. I rarely fish for them anymore.

[mako28]

It would be great to see raritan bay marinas get smart and charge transients about $3,000 a month for April and May. I’m sure you can thin out pressure when the price is right.

[Capt Sal]

It is always the charter boats doing the damage??? What about the thousands of private boats???? Got to blame someone why not the for hire industry??? People that don't own a boat will never get to experience this great fishery. It is people like you that think because you have a slip in the bay you own it??? Want to see a reduction in striper mortality??? LET THEM ALL GO!!!!!!

[Capt Sal]

It would be great to see raritan bay marinas get smart and charge transients about $3,000 a month for April and May. I’m sure you can thin out pressure when the price is right.

RIDICULOUS!

[dakota560]

It would be great to see raritan bay marinas get smart and charge transients about $3,000 a month for April and May. I’m sure you can thin out pressure when the price is right.

Why exactly would you charge the general public more money to access a public resource than people who willfully choose to keep their boat in a slip for the season. It's almost no different when you think about it than the fight on the fresh water forum to maintain public access to Greenwood Lake as opposed to a select few homeowners who feel they have privileged and exclusive rights to those resources.

Maybe the problem as has been pointed out and predicted for many years is the abusive harvest of breeders for all these years for dock side hero shots and a minute of glory. Sorry to piss some people off but I blame any hire captains who don't educate their clients of the wisdom of releasing these large breeders as much as I do anglers themselves for turning a blind eye on conservation. You want more places to have fisheries like RB, have regulations that protect the breeders and contribute yourself by releasing those same breeders for future generations. Then maybe guys wouldn't have to travel down from Ct. to have the kind of fishing we currently have in RB. And at the same time, use your voice and support to get Cooke Inc. the hell out of Chesapeake Bay and don't allow our politicians to have one entity corner the market on a public resource and cause a complete imbalance with the most important forage fish on the east coast.

Regulations are intended to protect stocks, not disparities in what people pay to enjoy a day on the water and whether they have a slip or trailer their boat.

Regulations have become insanely restrictive in almost all of today's fisheries and your suggestion is to impose more restrictions and pain on the recreational angler who simply wants to enjoy a day fishing and hopefully bring a fish or two home for dinner.