Striper management Addendum VI

[dales529]

Quote from Addendum VI
"Roughly 90% of annual Atlantic striped bass recreational catch is released alive, of which 9% are estimated to die as a result of being caught (referred to as “release mortality” or “dead releases”). Catch and release fishing has been perceived to have a minimal impact on the population, however a large component of annual striped bass mortality is attributed to release mortality accounting for roughly 48% of total removals in 2017 (49% in 2018). The current recreational striped bass management program uses bag limits and size limits to limit the number of fish that are harvested. However, these measures are not designed to reduce fishing effort and subsequent release mortality. While the proposed measures herein result in lower overall removals, the majority of them also increase dead releases. In order to address dead
releases, effort controls that are better designed to reduce the number of fishing trips that encounter striped bass should be considered (e.g., closed seasons)."

Goal of addendum VI is a 18% reduction in harvest but the above reads like reduction of EFFORT via closed seasons etc.

OK now lets look at the current OCEAN Run of large fish: All fish seem to be 35" or greater which appears to be the reg change they favor but yet all those fish under this proposal would be harvested legally . Granted at a 1 fish limit you could assume a harvest reduction by eliminating the trophy and bonus fish. However those extra releases would die by 48% and put a hurting on the for hire fleets.
If this big fish run happened in the spring at 35" or greater it would do little to stop the harvest of some spawning females pictures and releases again would die by 48% so whats the real gain

Next if the slot limit lets say 24"to 28" or whatever was instituted then ALL the current fish being caught in the OCEAN run would have to be released and again 48% would die anyway.

Next if there were fish in the 24" to 28" mixed in how many outside of that range would need to be released and again at 48% release mortality rate. Not to mention if you caught 6 at 24 to 28 , kept one and released 5 then 2 of the 5 you released are dead anyway.

Bottom line is I dont think any one can manage this and any one plan works.
There almost needs to be an OCEAN set of regs and a BAY / Estuary set of regs. Slots in bays and larger in ocean and of course that will change like the wind and the big fish will be in the bays and the slots in the ocean. So thats no answer either

I wrote this based on the language in addendum VI as quoted in the top of this post and before I get hung out I dont believe 48% of what we release dies anyway but thats how its written. I also dont believe we have to put the recreational for hire Striper fleet out of business if we dont have to.
If we already release 90% of our catch isnt that enough?

In conclusion make sure you dont catch any stripers that are female and in the spawn LOL.

Just sayin none of this is easy and we dont do ourselves any favors by beating on the recreational community of anglers and for hire fleets.

[hammer4reel]

Reading that it says we release 90 percent of our catch.
Of which 9 percent die.
So for every hundred fish 10 are kept, 9 die , so 81 percent live another day.


So it’s not 48 percent of what we catch dies .

It’s saying almost half of what we are charged with taking were release mortality .

BIG DIFFERENCE.

.


.

[Rocky]

This is a good conversation to have. Many fishermen need to learn what is going on. There are a few good guys here that spend a lot of time, money, and energy fighting for fishermen rights. Wether it is size limits or seasons lengths they fight for the right reasons.....to keep us fishing on a healthy fishery.

[Angler Paul]

The best way to conserve the stocks and to keep most fishermen content would be to allow one fish at 28" or greater but with a closed season during the spawn. No C&R fishing should be allowed during the closed season either. I believe this could be accomplished through conservation equivalency by extending our closed season through March or April. I intend to ask our state to develop an option to do just that once the ASMFC decides what they are going to do. Paul Haertel

[papabear2611]

Omega Protein Exceeds Limit, Keeps Harvesting

The Canadian menhaden-reduction operator says it has exceeded the catch cap set by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission in the Chesapeake Bay but will continue harvesting pogies anyway.

https://www.sportfishingmag.com/omega-protein-exceeds-limit-keeps-harvesting/[/URL]

The largest harvester of menhaden in U.S. waters, Canadian-owned Omega Protein, acknowledged that it has exceeded the cap in total harvest for Chesapeake Bay menhaden, yet it is continuing to haul in pogies. The company has said it will instead comply with a considerably higher catch limit set by the state of Virginia.

The ASMFC recommended a 51,000-metric-ton cap on menhaden harvest in the Chesapeake Bay, while Virginia has set that cap at 87,216 metric tons.

The lower limit was “arbitrarily low and unscientific” according to an Omega statement. It further cited safety of its fishermen, claiming that rough weather outside the bay that forced its industrial seiners to work inside the bay.

The ASFMC has denied that there is anything "arbitrary" about the 51,000-ton limit, a spokesman telling Undercurrent that the agency has used the same approach to set limits for many species in many fisheries. The ASFMC is scheduled to further consider menhaden on Oct. 28.

In a statement issued Sept. 13, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation observed that the ASMC cap was overwhelmingly adopted by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission (ASMFC) as a precautionary measure to ensure that the menhaden population left in the Bay can support species that prey on it, such as striped bass and bluefish, as well as marine mammals and birds.

Foundation scientist Chris Moore pointed out that scientists, conservationists, anglers and concerned citizens all participated in the bay menhaden cap. “This violation is unfortunately another example of Omega’s refusal to do the right thing when it comes to the region’s natural resources. It continues a long history of damaging environmental actions that have included millions of dollars in fines for water quality violations.”

Despite strong objections from a coalition of anglers’ and conservation groups, Omega Protein was recently certified as a sustainable fishery by the Marine Stewardship Council.

[shrimpman steve]

Sustainable fishery, that’s a farking joke

[Charlie B]

I wonder how many strippers are taken as by catch with the bunker...Charlie

[reason162]

Omega Protein Exceeds Limit, Keeps Harvesting

Just know that Omega's brazen thumb nosing at regulators can be traced back to our own NJ fluke grab of 2017.

If you recall, NJ forced the issue with ASMFC by going out of compliance on fluke quotas, betting on Wilber Ross to break precedence and rule in their favor. Well, the various industry groups got what they wanted: Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction.

With bunker you can bet that Omega Protein took that as a green light to defy any regulations set forth. Any state looking to undo conservation measures has a friend in this administration. They will side with big business every time.

And anyone bemoaning the bunker rape in VA can look back and reflect on their position during the 2017 fluke season, the groups they supported, the tactics they endorsed.

[JeffZ]

I wonder how many strippers are taken as by catch with the bunker...Charlie
No worries. Per omega they vaccum up the bunker out of the nets and the game fish are gently released.

[dales529]

Reading that it says we release 90 percent of our catch.
Of which 9 percent die.
So for every hundred fish 10 are kept, 9 die , so 81 percent live another day.


So it’s not 48 percent of what we catch dies .

It’s saying almost half of what we are charged with taking were release mortality .

BIG DIFFERENCE.
.

Dan
You are correct. Thanks for the input. Below quote from the addendum supports your answer and the 48% accounts for release mortality on total removals


Quote from the addendum
"Total recreational removals (harvested fish plus released fish that died as a result of being caught) increased from a low of 2.7 million pounds (434,665 fish) in 1984 to a high of 75.8 million pounds (7.6 million fish) in 2013. Total removals decreased to an average of 53.5 million
pounds (5.8 million fish) since the implementation of Addendum IV in 2015.

In 2017, recreational removals were estimated at 53.7 million pounds (6.4 million fish). Of those removals, 37.9 million pounds (2.9 million fish) were harvested (Table 3). In 2017, 38.0 million striped bass (equivalent to 176 million pounds) were released alive resulting in an estimated 3.4
million dead releases (15.8 million pounds), which accounted for 48% of total striped bass removals in numbers of fish (Table 4). In 2018, 49% of total removals were attributed to dead releases (2.8 million fish or 12.3 million pounds). Recreational dead releases make up a large portion of total removals because most of the catch is released."


I do however believe that the addendum still allows depending on final options approved either taking female breeders or culling /releasing larger fish to find a slot limit which could result in the release mortality rate estimates going up much higher than 9% .
especially under the new MRIP

[dales529]

Just know that Omega's brazen thumb nosing at regulators can be traced back to our own NJ fluke grab of 2017.

If you recall, NJ forced the issue with ASMFC by going out of compliance on fluke quotas, betting on Wilber Ross to break precedence and rule in their favor. Well, the various industry groups got what they wanted: Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction.

With bunker you can bet that Omega Protein took that as a green light to defy any regulations set forth. Any state looking to undo conservation measures has a friend in this administration. They will side with big business every time.

And anyone bemoaning the bunker rape in VA can look back and reflect on their position during the 2017 fluke season, the groups they supported, the tactics they endorsed.

Roger, While I agree with 99.9% of your posts I dont on the above. It was hardly a Fluke "Grab" . NJ did technically go out of compliance but we met ASMFC conservation equivalency by reducing the season and implementing educational programs on release mortality. NJ met the ASMFC quota and the only gain was state wide conservation equivalency vs regional which separated NJ from NY and CT. As we have completely unique fisheries that was a good thing for NJ while adhering to ASMFC guidelines. if you remember the "enough is enough" mantra which most fishermen supported NJ caved other than the regional issue and adhered to the guidelines.

[dakota560]

Just know that Omega's brazen thumb nosing at regulators can be traced back to our own NJ fluke grab of 2017.

If you recall, NJ forced the issue with ASMFC by going out of compliance on fluke quotas, betting on Wilber Ross to break precedence and rule in their favor. Well, the various industry groups got what they wanted: Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction.

With bunker you can bet that Omega Protein took that as a green light to defy any regulations set forth. Any state looking to undo conservation measures has a friend in this administration. They will side with big business every time.

And anyone bemoaning the bunker rape in VA can look back and reflect on their position during the 2017 fluke season, the groups they supported, the tactics they endorsed.

You have a very distorted view of what's happening. What happened in 2017 had absolutely nothing to do with undoing conservation measures set by ASMFC. NJ was faced with a 34% reduction in quota and going from a 5 possession limit at 18" in 2016 to 3 at 19" in 2017 all because the regulations implemented by ASMFC have caused a 15-year decline in the fishery since 2004. And your position is that constitutes a fluke grab. Combined landings (recreational and commercial) for the five years 2013 through 2017 in metric tons 8,806, 7,364, 5,366. 6,005 ,4,565. That's an almost 50% decrease in landings over 5 years, some grab. "Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction" You must be &^$%#$! kidding? NJ ended up with 3 fish at 18" in 2017, a significant cut because the authoritative body tasked with managing the fluke fishery is mismanaging it. NY and Ct went from 5 at 18" to 3 at 19" and Rhode Island went from 8 at 18" to 4 at 19". Seems to me ASMFC still has a lot of teeth when they decide to use them.

Cooke Inc acquired Omega Protein in 2018 for approximately $500 million. Almost 80% of the annual menhaden quota is allocated to Virginia. How much money do you suppose changes hands between Cooke Inc and Va. politicians to bend the rules in their favor every year to justify that acquisition and rape the resource in the process. This has zero to do with conservation, it's about power, money and a corrupt process from top to bottom. What's happening with bunker and Cooke is indicative of the problem every fishery is faced with today, it's being sold to the highest bidder.

[Rocky]

You have a very distorted view of what's happening. What happened in 2017 had absolutely nothing to do with undoing conservation measures set by ASMFC. NJ was faced with a 34% reduction in quota and going from a 5 possession limit at 18" in 2016 to 3 at 19" in 2017 all because the regulations implemented by ASMFC have caused a 15-year decline in the fishery since 2004. And your position is that constitutes a fluke grab. Combined landings (recreational and commercial) for the five years 2013 through 2017 in metric tons 8,806, 7,364, 5,366. 6,005 ,4,565. That's an almost 50% decrease in landings over 5 years, some grab. "Ross sided with NJ, pulling any remaining teeth from ASMFC's jurisdiction" You must be &^$%#$! kidding? NJ ended up with 3 fish at 18" in 2017, a significant cut because the authoritative body tasked with managing the fluke fishery is mismanaging it. NY and Ct went from 5 at 18" to 3 at 19" and Rhode Island went from 8 at 18" to 4 at 19". Seems to me ASMFC still has a lot of teeth when they decide to use them.

Cooke Inc acquired Omega Protein in 2018 for approximately $500 million. Almost 80% of the annual menhaden quota is allocated to Virginia. How much money do you suppose changes hands between Cooke Inc and Va. politicians to bend the rules in their favor every year to justify that acquisition and rape the resource in the process. This has zero to do with conservation, it's about power, money and a corrupt process from top to bottom. What's happening with bunker and Cooke is indicative of the problem every fishery is faced with today, it's being sold to the highest bidder.

If I was your son I don't think it would be a good idea to ask you to borrow the car right now.:D

[reason162]

NJ did technically go out of compliance but we met ASMFC conservation equivalency by reducing the season and implementing educational programs on release mortality.

Dale, if NJ met conservation equivalency ASMFC would've approved the state-backed regs for 2017; it did not, therefore the proposed "equivalency" was rejected. The quota filled was after the fact...I remember it ended up being one of the worst inshore fluke seasons in memory, and a bite materialized in keyport of all places the very week NJ shut down (which was part of the altered season, truncating the last 2 weeks for the smaller size limit).

The irony was the season ended up being so bad that it would've made little difference had NJ went along with the ASMFC set of regs. In fact the NY boats had no issues filling up limits on the NJ side of RB after the NJ season closed...

What was accomplished was to put ASMFC in a no win position of declaring NJ out of compliance, which it was, while knowing that Wilber Ross will likely side with NJ, setting up an untenable precedence. Certainly it couldn't have turned a blind eye to NJ going out of compliance either.

You can draw a direct line between the Ross decision to back NJ at the expense of ASMFC authority in 2017 to Omega's bunker grab this year. It showed how powerless ASMFC was in the face of a business-friendly government in Washington.

This argument was made during the 2017 meetings, it was spelled out on various forums and blog posts, and anyone could've followed the thread to its logical conclusion. No one who paid any attention 2 years ago should be surprised at what Omega got away with in 2019.

[reason162]

NY and Ct went from 5 at 18" to 3 at 19" and Rhode Island went from 8 at 18" to 4 at 19". Seems to me ASMFC still has a lot of teeth when they decide to use them.

ASMFC can set whatever regulations they want, with the NJ fluke and now Omega bunker precedence states can go out of compliance with no fear of consequences, as long as the current admin controls the commerce department.

That's the teeth pulling I was referring to. NY/CT did not go out of compliance (or even consider it afaik) partly bc they understood the implications of such myopic political maneuvering.

How much money do you suppose changes hands between Cooke Inc and Va. politicians to bend the rules in their favor every year to justify that acquisition and rape the resource in the process. This has zero to do with conservation, it's about power, money and a corrupt process from top to bottom.

I don't quite get the non sequitur here...how is corruption in the context of Cooke Inc controlling Va politicians nothing to do with conservation?

In an ideal world, a federal agency should have the power to exorcise that kind of cancerous process at the state level. That agency would be on the side of conservation vs. a reduction company and their bought politicians.

ASMFC is certainly not that agency, due in no small part to NJ's kneecapping in 2017. Over a lousy inch that hardly mattered at the end of the season.

[dakota560]

ASMFC can set whatever regulations they want, with the NJ fluke and now Omega bunker precedence states can go out of compliance with no fear of consequences, as long as the current admin controls the commerce department.

That's the teeth pulling I was referring to. NY/CT did not go out of compliance (or even consider it afaik) partly bc they understood the implications of such myopic political maneuvering.



I don't quite get the non sequitur here...how is corruption in the context of Cooke Inc controlling Va politicians nothing to do with conservation?

In an ideal world, a federal agency should have the power to exorcise that kind of cancerous process at the state level. That agency would be on the side of conservation vs. a reduction company and their bought politicians.

ASMFC is certainly not that agency, due in no small part to NJ's kneecapping in 2017. Over a lousy inch that hardly mattered at the end of the season.

I'll try to be clearer. Your statement "You can draw a direct line between the Ross decision to back NJ at the expense of ASMFC authority in 2017 to Omega's bunker grab this year. It showed how powerless ASMFC was in the face of a business-friendly government in Washington." COMPLETE BS! One has nothing to do with the other but you're pro ASMFC and "science can do no wrong mentality" prevents you from seeing the forest through the trees.

The proposed bay cap of 51,000 metric tons by ASMFC was a recommendation not a mandate, but Virginia refused to codify it into law because the quotas were raised for all other states and lowered for Virginia. So Virginia instead ignored ASMFC's recommendation and adopted a quota of 87,216 metric tons. The ASMFC did not find Virginia out of compliance because ASMFC's position was the species is not over-fished and over-fishing is not occurring, and NOAA (the business friendly administration you're referring to) advised the ASMFC that there is no precedent for an out-of-compliance finding in a situation where the species is not overfished and over-fishing is not occurring. Virginia and ASMFC, not Washington, caused this to happen and has absolutely nothing to do with NJ's position regarding summer flounder in 2017 or Washington so trying to relate the two to push your liberal pro science can do no wrong personal agenda is misguided. This is corporate greed, someone getting their pockets lined in Virginia and ASMFC allowing it to happen period. Precisely why efforts are in motion to move menhaden management out of the Va Legislature and into VMRC's (Virginia Marine Resource Fishing) control this coming spring as a 1st step in sending the Canadian firm Omega Protein beyond the 3 mile line as every other eastern coast state has done.

What we do agree on is something needs to be done to stop this from happening. As I've repeatedly said with summer flounder, the health of the fishery needs to come first before allocations of the resource to interested parties and then those allocations can't be at the expense of the fishery or the other parties dependent on the resource, a concept fishery management in my opinion fails to comprehend. Summer flounder stock on a 15-yr decline and commercial interests receive a 50% increase in quota! I'm sure ASMFC has a reason why that decision was made but a fishery which has declined in biomass by almost 40% over the last 15 years translating to a 50% increase in quota for one party who in my opinion is causing most of the damage is unconscionable. You can file that in your science can do no wrong folder.

[reason162]

The ASMFC did not find Virginia out of compliance because ASMFC's position was the species is not over-fished and over-fishing is not occurring

This is how it works:

The ASMFC has no enforcement capacity, they can only make rulings on compliance. The Dept of Commerce is the federal enforcement agency in this case, with the power to declare moratoriums on state fisheries deemed out of compliance by the ASMFC.

If ASMFC finds Virginia out of compliance on bunker, the Commerce Dept can shut down the fishing in that state.

But what happened last time ASMFC found a state out of compliance? That's right: Commerce Dept head Wilbur Ross sided with the state (NJ) and declined to shut down the fluke season. This was the first time a commerce dept secretary has failed to heed ASMFC's recommendation for a moratorium due to a state being out of compliance.

You don't think that has any bearing on ASMFC's decision to NOT find Virginia out of compliance this time around? Same commerce dept at the helm, same admin in Washington. It doesn't take a political genius to figure out the outcome would've been exactly the same, further weakening w/e authority the ASMFC had.

The bay cap vs state cap narrative was a feeble attempt by the ASMFC to mitigate political fallout of doing nothing to penalize Virginia. Anyone with half a brain can see through this transparent and desperate attempt at self preservation.

I have little interest in the details of your hypothesis re fluke...that's not for this discussion. Just pointing out exactly how the political calculations played out re ASMFC vs states vs commerce department under this government. When NJ pursued its fluke grab of 2017, this exact scenario should've been painfully obvious. And I believe it was, but no one involved at the time gave one flying fk about the consequences.

[dales529]

This is how it works:

The ASMFC has no enforcement capacity, they can only make rulings on compliance. The Dept of Commerce is the federal enforcement agency in this case, with the power to declare moratoriums on state fisheries deemed out of compliance by the ASMFC.

If ASMFC finds Virginia out of compliance on bunker, the Commerce Dept can shut down the fishing in that state.

But what happened last time ASMFC found a state out of compliance? That's right: Commerce Dept head Wilbur Ross sided with the state (NJ) and declined to shut down the fluke season. This was the first time a commerce dept secretary has failed to heed ASMFC's recommendation for a moratorium due to a state being out of compliance.

You don't think that has any bearing on ASMFC's decision to NOT find Virginia out of compliance this time around? Same commerce dept at the helm, same admin in Washington. It doesn't take a political genius to figure out the outcome would've been exactly the same, further weakening w/e authority the ASMFC had.

The bay cap vs state cap narrative was a feeble attempt by the ASMFC to mitigate political fallout of doing nothing to penalize Virginia. Anyone with half a brain can see through this transparent and desperate attempt at self preservation.

I have little interest in the details of your hypothesis re fluke...that's not for this discussion. Just pointing out exactly how the political calculations played out re ASMFC vs states vs commerce department under this government. When NJ pursued its fluke grab of 2017, this exact scenario should've been painfully obvious. And I believe it was, but no one involved at the time gave one flying fk about the consequences.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. What really happened is this:
When NJ threatened to and did technically go out of compliance ASMFC scheduled a NJ Out of compliance hearing. They then explained to NJDEP that if NJ was found out of compliance there were 2 options. One being Nj would have to go default measures which in 2017 were 2 fish at 19" and a July to Aug season . The second option was a fluke closure for NJ in federal waters including both recreational and commercial, along with either revoking and /or not renewing federal permits for PB and charter boats. State waters would be under the default measures.

NJ DEP upon hearing this came up with an option as previously stated to reduce the season but maintain a 3 fish @18" bag and institute the educational release mortality program. NJDEP submitted this plan to ASMFC the day before the out of compliance hearing for review. ASMFC came back stating the option met state wide conservation equivalency.

At the council meeting where the out of compliance hearing was scheduled, NJDEP made a motion to the council for this option. Motion was seconded and then a roll call vote was taken where the option was approved by the council. By doing that the hearing for NJ out of compliance was removed from the agenda and NJ was reinstated as in compliance.

At that point it never got to Wilbur Ross as there was no out of compliance decision to be made.

A compromise yes but in the end NJ caved to ASMFC as they did still have plenty of "teeth" in the game. And certainly no fluke grab as we lost other than being de- regionalized.

[Gerry Zagorski]

This is how it works:Just pointing out exactly how the political calculations played out re ASMFC vs states vs commerce department under this government. When NJ pursued its fluke grab of 2017, this exact scenario should've been painfully obvious. And I believe it was, but no one involved at the time gave one flying fk about the consequences.

And what exactly were the consequences. I see 2 in this example

1) NJ fishermen were allowed to keep 18 instead of 19 inch Fluke which allowed them to fill their limit with more male fish and not have to fill it with all female breeders.

2) We set a precedent that the powers to be in the ASMFC are not the end all be all if John Q. Public makes some noise and has a more sensible plan then they’ve recommended.

A few other observations not pointed at reason.

1) Why is it that many people on this site don’t have an issue with people keeping a big Fluke or SeaBass but when it comes to Stripers it’s a lightening rod?

2) If you’re that bent on protecting Stripers and it’s assumed that 9% die as a result of catch and release why even fish for them at all??

[reason162]

And what exactly were the consequences. I see 2 in this example

1) NJ fishermen were allowed to keep 18 instead of 19 inch Fluke which allowed them to fill their limit with more male fish and not have to fill it with all female breeders.

2) We set a precedent that the powers to be in the ASMFC are not the end all be all if John Q. Public makes some noise and has a more sensible plan then they’ve recommended.

Gerry, I have no comment re point #1 for this discussion, and point #2 is at least honest, ie you applaud the new paradigm of lawlessness among states to challenge ASMFC quotas. That's at least a consistent and logical position.

My issue is with someone who 1) full throatedly supported the push to go out of compliance in 2017, and 2) now bemoan the bunker situation in Va. As if what NJ did 2 years ago has nothing to do with the powerlessness of ASMFC in reigning in corporate greed in Va today.

That is all.

[reason162]

At that point it never got to Wilbur Ross as there was no out of compliance decision to be made.

Dale, here's the first article that pops up if you google Ross NJ Fluke:

U.S. Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross approved New Jersey’s rules for summer flounder fishing, which state environmental officials implemented earlier this year in defiance of a quota by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, according to government officials. It marked the first time under the 1993 Atlantic Coastal Fisheries Cooperative Management Act that the U.S. secretary has ruled against the commission, which regulates fishing in state waters.

In any case, if what you say is true, it would be a distinction without a difference. Had ASMFC technically not ruled NJ out of compliance in 2017, it would've been a procedural move in anticipation of Ross' siding with NJ.

Which, in everything I've read back then, is actually what occurred: NJ's proposed equivalency was rejected, declared out of compliance by ASMFC, Ross stepped in on NJ's behalf, thus the talk of "precedence" in that whole fiasco.

Surely you are not saying that what happened in 2017 was business as usual?

[dakota560]

I know how it works. The basis of your entire position relates to NJ's reaction to a proposed 34% reduction in their 2017 summer flounder quota. Since you brought it up I followed your lead. Guess you opened the door just as you're implying NJ and Washington opened the door for Cooke / Omega Protein to exploit the menhaden fishery based on a decision Virginia made.

If ASMFC finds Virginia out of compliance on bunker, the Commerce Dept can shut down the fishing in that state. How can ASMFC find Virginia out of compliance on menhaden when they weren't. The 51,000 metric ton limit was a recommended harvest limit by ASMFC but never enacted? Virginia wasn't out of compliance so how exactly could the Commerce Department shut them down.

So back to your 2017 comment about NJ being myopic and consequential impacts by going out of compliance in an effort to stop this madness, your advise would be just bend over, accept it and thank fisheries management for putting us in the position we find ourselves in because of the far reaching consequences challenging it might create. That's some extremely sound advise, remember it when we get to a one fish limit at 25 inches.

You can have the last volley, not going to burden the board with another debate between us. We simply have completely different views regarding these matters. I need to see data that supports policy decisions which makes sense, not data with a high degree of uncertainty or highly speculative. I'm not a blind faith guy. You believe just because science is involved and data passed peer review all decisions are correct even when a fishery has been failing for the last 15 years. That's the same perspective which has shortened our seasons, reduced catch quotas by 75%, introduced size and possession limits, given harvest rights of approximately 35 million more fish of the harvest-able biomass (fish over 14") exclusively to commercial operators at the expense of recreational access (our discards which were keepers in the 80's and 90's when the biomass grew 900%), killed recruitment levels and caused a major alteration in the gender composition of the spawning stock, the impact we'll feel for years. Not to mention the impact these regulations are having on small businesses. And your position is the problems are the states being myopic and Washington being business friendly. Interesting perspective.

Even though you don't want to bring my analysis on summer flounder into the discussion, it's relevant in terms of what we're dealing with. The above statements are all facts based on peer reviewed data from science and policy decisions based on that data which have failed the fisheries and people and businesses dependent on it.

[dakota560]

Dave correct me if I'm wrong but didn't ASMFC threaten to shut down not just the summer flounder fishery but all fisheries in the EEZ zone for both recreational and commercial concerns if we stayed out of compliance. I thought that factored into the discussions and why ultimately NJ essentially had no leverage.

[dales529]

Dale, here's the first article that pops up if you google Ross NJ Fluke:

U.S. Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross approved New Jersey’s rules for summer flounder fishing, which state environmental officials implemented earlier this year in defiance of a quota by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, according to government officials. It marked the first time under the 1993 Atlantic Coastal Fisheries Cooperative Management Act that the U.S. secretary has ruled against the commission, which regulates fishing in state waters.

In any case, if what you say is true, it would be a distinction without a difference. Had ASMFC technically not ruled NJ out of compliance in 2017, it would've been a procedural move in anticipation of Ross' siding with NJ.

Which, in everything I've read back then, is actually what occurred: NJ's proposed equivalency was rejected, declared out of compliance by ASMFC, Ross stepped in on NJ's behalf, thus the talk of "precedence" in that whole fiasco.

Surely you are not saying that what happened in 2017 was business as usual?

Roger
No I wouldn't say it was business as usual but I do believe it was in the best interest of NJ recreational fishermen to kick the tires a bit and stop the unnecessary cuts to our summer flounder that put conservation minded anglers / captains off our resource. Also as our resource is unique to NJ
deregionalization was paramount. Also many in the industry thought Wilbur Ross was going to be the savior of MSA reform but in the end not so much.

Surely you are not saying Magnason doesn't need reform?

Surely since 2008 when i got involved in fisheries management groups you wouldn't say that ASMFC regulatory options have improved our summer flounder stocks?

[reason162]

Roger
No I wouldn't say it was business as usual but I do believe it was in the best interest of NJ recreational fishermen to kick the tires a bit and stop the unnecessary cuts to our summer flounder that put conservation minded anglers / captains off our resource. Also as our resource is unique to NJ
deregionalization was paramount. Also many in the industry thought Wilbur Ross was going to be the savior of MSA reform but in the end not so much.

Surely you are not saying Magnason doesn't need reform?

Surely since 2008 when i got involved in fisheries management groups you wouldn't say that ASMFC regulatory options have improved our summer flounder stocks?

Dale,

We can disagree on the merits of fluke specifically but arrive at the same conclusion that helping to break precedence vis-à-vis ASMFC - Commerce - individual states was a myopic move for anyone concerned about conservation.

I'd rather keep this discussion focused on the pure political ramifications of just how NJ damaged ASMFC, and not delve into the science of fluke management bc then I'll have to bring up climate change and "peer review" and heads will explode on this forum.

Anyway, I know we agree on certain broad outlines when it comes to management, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a bit surprised at your retrospective obfuscation on the 2017 sequence of events. You know very well how things went down, and by all intents and purposes it is exactly how I described. The implications of that move on NJ's part is why ASMFC is now powerless to regulate bunker in Va, or any state's future bad-faith move against regulations IF that state had the political will to organize and defy ASMFC regs.

[Gerry Zagorski]

In my opinion the ASMFC needs some real world input into their thinking and science. We the public are allowed into question their decisions and methodology only after everything is already decided. Public comments are looked at as “ let me do my job, hold a meeting to hear public comments so I can check that box, continue to present my materials, I know more then you and let me get out of here with my skin”.

IMHO the Federal Government and its employees do not have a lock on critical thinking and solving issues. They need to be questioned, they need to be challenged.

[dakota560]

Gerry, I have no comment re point #1 for this discussion, and point #2 is at least honest, ie you applaud the new paradigm of lawlessness among states to challenge ASMFC quotas. That's at least a consistent and logical position.

My issue is with someone who 1) full throatedly supported the push to go out of compliance in 2017, and 2) now bemoan the bunker situation in Va. As if what NJ did 2 years ago has nothing to do with the powerlessness of ASMFC in reigning in corporate greed in Va today.

That is all.

I can say with complete conviction if NJ didn't push back on 2017 fluke regulations, Cooke Inc. / Omega Protein would still be harvesting bunker today in the Chesapeake in excess of the 51,000 metric tons ASMFC recommended. Not one thing would've changed and trying to associate the two is incredulous.

If you call each state's rights to challenge questionable data and decision making lawlessness, how would you characterize a governing body which has set policy decisions involving major sacrifices from those same states resulting in not future benefits as promised but a failing fishery since 2004. A failing fishery with more cuts to come for the same reasons debated over the last 15 years.

[dales529]

Dale,

We can disagree on the merits of fluke specifically but arrive at the same conclusion that helping to break precedence vis-à-vis ASMFC - Commerce - individual states was a myopic move for anyone concerned about conservation.

I'd rather keep this discussion focused on the pure political ramifications of just how NJ damaged ASMFC, and not delve into the science of fluke management bc then I'll have to bring up climate change and "peer review" and heads will explode on this forum.

Anyway, I know we agree on certain broad outlines when it comes to management, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a bit surprised at your retrospective obfuscation on the 2017 sequence of events. You know very well how things went down, and by all intents and purposes it is exactly how I described. The implications of that move on NJ's part is why ASMFC is now powerless to regulate bunker in Va, or any state's future bad-faith move against regulations IF that state had the political will to organize and defy ASMFC regs.

Roger,
I couldn't have been more CLEAR ( to your obfuscation comment) on the events that actually transpired to my knowledge are as I posted.
Unsure of your accusation that I know otherwise but post here or PM if there is something I am missing.

NJDEP kept this close to the vest and most of us in recreational fishing groups that either attended physically or via webinar of what we thought was an Out of Complinace hearing were suprised to hear of a new option.

Since 2008 I have only tried to support and fund raise for the topics/ groups aligned with recreational fishing agendas like SSFFF and RFA-NJ etc without leaning to any political party or agenda .

ASMFC is far from powerless as they caused NJDEP into a direct action outside of its original goal.

Also I started this thread as I see yet another addendum on Striped Bass with little substance and unintended consequence that again will restrict a NJ resource with no gain in stock biomass

[Rocky]

[QUOTE=dales529;539423
Surely you are not saying Magnason doesn't need reform?
[/QUOTE]

So the Magnuson-Stevens act has been in affect for how many years? And now we are blaming Wilbur Ross for years of declining fish stocks and mismanagement? :confused:

[dales529]

So the Magnuson-Stevens act has been in affect for how many years? And now we are blaming Wilbur Ross for years of declining fish stocks and mismanagement? :confused:

Rocky
Not sure if this was directed at me but you quoted my post. MSA needs reform and has needed reform for 10 +years . I did not blame Wilbur Ross or anyone just stated that many thought he would get it done but given our current administration I am sure he has more pressing issues to attend to:eek:

[Rocky]

Rocky
Not sure if this was directed at me but you quoted my post. MSA needs reform and has needed reform for 10 +years . I did not blame Wilbur Ross or anyone just stated that many thought he would get it done but given our current administration I am sure he has more pressing issues to attend to:eek:

Not directed at your post at all sir just reiterating the fact that the MSA as you stated needs reform. Blaming Wilbur Ross for the years of declining fish stocks and mismanagment is like blaming the Fred Flintstone mobile for global warming.