Fishery Management

[dakota560]

This isn't a fishing report so will probably be deleted. Before it does, wanted to say a few words to the board. First Honger you're a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being. Inappropriate ethnic slurs have no place on this site or anywhere else. You're what's known as an "Oxygen Thief" (look it up), world would be a better place without morons like you in it. Glad to see Gerry or Joe deleted your misguided posts about Asians, hopefully one of them banned you from the site as well.

There was a time when fishery management and regulations were considered worthy topics on this site. Those times no longer exist. Hundreds and thousands of views without comment or replies, most members today could care less about the behind the scenes maneuvering that's taking place in Washington which is literally stealing every fishery from recreational anglers and risking party boat and for-hire operators of their livelihoods along with the livelihoods of many businesses dependent on this industry. Sad that what basically amounts to one of the best recreational fishing sites available can't generate enough enthusiasm or interest to understand what's happening within our fisheries or figure out how to get involved in trying to cause change. When you work effortlessly for everyone's benefits and those efforts are questioned or largely ignored, it's time to reconsider if that effort is worth it.

Remember the following, words to live your life by. "What you do makes a difference, and each of you have to decide what difference you want to make". One person has the ability to make a positive impact, and everyone should at minimum try".

Hope there's plenty of reports for members to read since that seems to be the singular focus of this forum these days. Information exchange went out the window some time ago. Sad to see, in my humble opinion it takes away from what made this such a great site.

[Brewlugger]

It's a worthy topic my friend. I hope I'm not in the minority here but I appreciate you fighting the good fight.

[1captainron]

Sad but True Tom.


Most people on these sites have No skin in the game other than the fact, they own a boat. It's not their lively hood, it's their pass time which could become Golf or anything else for that matter should fishing suddenly go away.

Support? I learned about that the second time going to Washington, it was embarrassing only 3 busses from NJ, more folks came from Florida.

I also realized that this year after all the years of paying our dues on the Fluke size & numbers that when the quota numbers were up, we got NOTHING! Not a 1/2 inch smaller fish, more fish, bonus fish or longer season then the commercial end gets 40% more of the quota!!


Blood pressure is too high anymore, I do give a shit but not going to drop dead over it anymore. So in the end "They Have Won" Congratulations NOAA, hope you are proud.

[GDubya07]

Tom

Thank you for everything you do and the countless hours you put in breaking down the data to explain it in its simplest form for people like me to understand. Most people just dont like to help and just go on about there daily lives and could give 2 craps but some of us do care and appreciate all you do . Also you cant fix stupid

Capt. Ron I cant blame you one bit

Gdubs-:cool:

[Rocky]

At the first rally in DC I honestly thought we could make a difference. It was well attended by fishermen from all over, even Alaska! At the second rally it was sad. The enthusiasm from the first rally was gone. It was a pathetic showing by a few and that is when I realized we were screwed!

So many people fish but, so few want to get involved and fight for our right to fish and manage our fishery properly. Dakota you are one of the good guys and I appreciate all of the selfless work you have done to date. Thank you.

[bhackemup]

Sad but True Tom.


Most people on these sites have No skin in the game other than the fact, they own a boat. It's not their lively hood, it's their pass time which could become Golf or anything else for that matter should fishing suddenly go away.

Support? I learned about that the second time going to Washington, it was embarrassing only 3 busses from NJ, more folks came from Florida.

I also realized that this year after all the years of paying our dues on the Fluke size & numbers that when the quota numbers were up, we got NOTHING! Not a 1/2 inch smaller fish, more fish, bonus fish or longer season then the commercial end gets 40% more of the quota!!


Blood pressure is too high anymore, I do give a shit but not going to drop dead over it anymore. So in the end "They Have Won" Congratulations NOAA, hope you are proud.

I have a good friend who fought the "Fish Nazis" for years and suffered a stroke in the process. The Gov. guy, who he fought with most called him to say, not how are you but< "Maybe you should not have fought us so hard."

[hammer4reel]

Problem is guys won’t step up until it’s too late.
And the ones that lively hood depend on it don’t even show up .

Only way it can ever change is is LOTS , more people show up.
Just donating money to small organizations isn’t what’s needed.
Over flowing. Meeting halls is where it is needed.


All the guys catching shorts need to know they are getting charged for 33 % of those throw backs in the quota .
So if you caught 10 shorts you limited out without a fish going home.

.
INSANITY is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

Time to put effort into forcing NMFS into changing current policy that is ruining our fisheries.
Species aren’t being lost to over fishing, they are being lost to improper management.

.

[dakota560]

Brewlugger, Capt Ron, GDubs, Rocky I appreciate your responses but it makes my point at the same time. So few willing to try yet so many willing to complain.

I'm not looking for accolades, I'm hoping to make a difference in my life and in this particular case with the summer flounder fishery. I've been fortunate to be introduced by Gerry to a number of people involved in the industry over the last three years and have been more fortunate to be mentored by Dave (Dales529) who is a wealth of knowledge and good friend. He's given me a good understanding of the process, great guidance and support every step of the way.

This battle will be won in my opinion in one way and one way only.......through using NOAA's / NMFS's / ASMFC's own data to point out inconsistencies and changes in historical relationships over the years which either make no sense or are trending in the wrong direction based on policy decisions made over those same time frames. In other words, identify what changed when the fishery started it's decline in the early 2000's and compare those attributes to the 600% growth we experienced in the biomass between 1989 - 2002 and the answer will reveal itself. In my opinion it has. Instead of simply reducing catch by tonnage (metric tons), fisheries management instead attempted to reduce catch by increasing size limits for recreational anglers which caused a series of unintended consequences to the spawning biomass destroying recruitment in the process. It also allowed commercial operators to improve the value of their catch by harvesting the fish recreational anglers are now discarding, killing younger age fish in the process which in the 80's and 90's were the age fish being commercially harvested and brought to market. The regulations are killing this fishery for anyone who wants to understand the big picture.

I recently emailed a 16-page document to the Chair of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Council "ASMFC", Chair of the Scientific and Statistical Committee "SSC" (advisory board for policy decisions to the ASMFC) and Mark Terceiro who is the lead scientist for the Summer Flounder stock. Anyone interested in the email or analysis sent, pm me your email address and I'd be more than happy to share the document with you. Document will be included in the materials handed out to Council Members at the upcoming September meeting this year. Content of the draft was to identify changes in historical relationships within this fishery over the last thirty-years in an effort to focus fisheries management on the issues hurting the fishery and policy decisions which in my opinion have led to it's decline. Fact based analysis using their own data. Michael Waine, newly appointed Atlantic Fisheries Policy Director for American Sportfishing Association "ASA", John DePersenaire Fisheries Policy & Science Researcher Recreational Fishing Alliance "RFA" and others have also been involved in this process which will eventually fan out to include all Council Board Members, SSC Board Members and state representatives. Word and knowledge of these facts needs to be disseminated to the bodies responsible for the management and fair allocation of the resource.

Case in point. Currently reviewing the 66th Stock Assessment Workshop "SAW" full report. In the 57th SAW, number of fish making up the biomass in 2002 was estimated at approximately 131 million fish. As most are aware, recreational anglers were penalized in 2019's regulations for significantly higher historical catch levels based on the new method of collecting data under the Marine Recreational Information Program "MRIP". Recreational catch under the old method in 2002 was 11,854 metric tons, that number increased to 16,473 metric tons for the same year under the new method of capturing data under MRIP. That's 4,619 metric tons more or over 10 million pounds of summer flounder the recreational community is being assessed with catching, a majority of that catch if you can believe it coming from shore based catches, not boats. At the same time, recruitment for 2002 now show an increase between the two consecutive Stock Assessments of approximately 13 million new fish yet the overall population in the biomass in the latest assessment shows an increase from 131 million fish to 174 million, 42 million more. That's a mathematical impossibility but as discussed previously in other threads all based on "best available science" and revised reference points being used in models. Policy decisions are being made on statistical data which is being materially changed within consecutive stock assessments. In the latest SAW, recreational catch levels for the last eight years, 2010 - 2017, were increased collectively by almost 40,000 metric tons, approximately 5 million metric tons a year on average or in excess of 10 million lbs of fish per year, a majority of which were supposedly caught from shore. In the survey forms I've been able to find, there's not one question about number of fish caught. It's all based on "Fishing Effort" and an algorithm which somehow converts "Fishing Effort" into catch. Have no idea how it ultimately translates to catch statistics but to have that degree of margin of error in two consecutive Stock Assessments is cause for concern. Statistically speaking, it's completely outside confidence and margins of error percentages in any sampling I've been involved with in my career. That's just one example of changes in historical relationships or inconsistencies in data which are ultimately dictating our fate regarding access rights to this fishery and a fair allocation of the resource. Changes and inconsistencies which need to be challenged and deserving of an answer from fishery management based on facts, not anecdotal arguments.

Enough said, I'll continue to face the challenge with the few who have dedicated their time as well in doing so. If we're successful, everyone can read about it in industry publications, won't waste more of anyone's time here for those only interested in fishing reports as opposed to the overall health of the fishery and the regulations that decide that health which ironically produce those reports.

[laketrout]

Dakota,

Good read and thank you for all your knowledge and hard work. I hope something changes.

I am also very discouraged and at a loss of what to think about the future. I am also saddened and frustrated that the NJ fisherman seem unaware of the root cause of the fluke collapse. Water temperature and global warming are not the damn cause of the the fluke collapse in the NY bright area. It’s nothing more than interference and static blurring the real cause of this catastrophe.

[bunker dunker]

this is were i have a problem with folks saying "they don't care".lets just say they do care but are tried of fighting for 40 years and not seeing anything go their way.i see other states were a certain fish is in decline and they close the season only to open it again when the stocks are back up.how come not in new jersey????how about all the giant tackle companies,were is there donations or support.our senators and congress peeps always say"we hear and understand"
but we never hear or see any change.as some on this site will say this is a negative respone. it is not,it is only showing the reality of what is real.

[dakota560]

this is were i have a problem with folks saying "they don't care".lets just say they do care but are tired of fighting for 40 years and not seeing anything go their way.i see other states were a certain fish is in decline and they close the season only to open it again when the stocks are back up.how come not in new jersey????how about all the giant tackle companies,were is there donations or support.our senators and congress peeps always say"we hear and understand"
but we never hear or see any change.as some on this site will say this is a negative response. it is not,it is only showing the reality of what is real.

Lot of questions and criticisms, so what's you're suggestion on how to proceed and what's your involvement personally to change the situation we find ourselves in?

[Detour66]

The only way the regulations will change in our favor is votes and money! We need to organize as one group and put our votes and money where our mouths are. If all fisherman including myself put more passion into making their voice heard it could be done. Look at so many other much bigger social issues that have been changed due to people being passionate about their cause and not giving up. Until fisherman decide to put a real effort into change. Nothing will change in our favor.

[bunker dunker]

like i said folks would say i was being negative,shocker!!!!! hypothetically what
if we all gathered at a certain marina and filled all the boats.we then all catch and keep 1 short fluke.we then call the co's and report it.we all get tickets and
tell them we want court dates.we fill the court rooms and tie up the courts or something like that.i'll bet we would be heard then,just saying

[dakota560]

BD I'm not saying your negative, if my reply came across that way I apologize. We're all frustrated for good reason.

I'll make another suggestion to keep people from having to appear in court. There's been opinion polls on this site over the years. Not sure how it's done, think Gerry might have to do it. I'd be interested in a site survey which outlines percentage keepers on trips. Would like to capture three streams of data, number or range of fish caught, number of shorts and number of trips reported. Maybe it's arranged as percentage of shorts caught on trip in ranges that are broken by increments of 10% as in over 90%, over 80%, over 70% etc. Fish caught could be shown in increments of 25 or more, less than 25, between 25 and 50, between 50 and 75, between 75 and 100 and over 100.

My guess is we'll see huge amounts of shorts which we're being penalized for a ~35% in discard rates, a low percentage of keepers in the absolute and per trip. The recreational regulations in place right now due to the imbalance caused by increased size limits driving higher discard rates will almost guarantee we'll never see another increase in possession limits until wholesale changes are made by the Council.

Gerry is that possible?

[bunker dunker]

no worries mr dakota,all is good.i just think they will not stop or bend until we hit them were is hurts,their wallet.hypothetically if 300 peeps showed up with
summons i believe that would tie up the courts and cost them money.again i believe it what all are doing,including yourself.i just don't believe that the state
government believes or cares.

[Detour66]

like i said folks would say i was being negative,shocker!!!!! hypothetically what
if we all gathered at a certain marina and filled all the boats.we then all catch and keep 1 short fluke.we then call the co's and report it.we all get tickets and
tell them we want court dates.we fill the court rooms and tie up the courts or something like that.i'll bet we would be heard then,just saying What if every private boat...party boat...charter boat...kayak..land fisherman all decide to keep short fluke state wide in protest. Pick a date or dates and we all do it! That might get some attention.

[hammer4reel]

this is were i have a problem with folks saying "they don't care".lets just say they do care but are tried of fighting for 40 years and not seeing anything go their way.i see other states were a certain fish is in decline and they close the season only to open it again when the stocks are back up.how come not in new jersey????how about all the giant tackle companies,were is there donations or support.our senators and congress peeps always say"we hear and understand"
but we never hear or see any change.as some on this site will say this is a negative respone. it is not,it is only showing the reality of what is real.

EVERY tackle manufacture donates a percentage of ALL tackle sales directly to the AMERICAN SPORTFISHING ASSOCIATION as well as proceeds from ICAST instead of sending it to many little groups.

WE tried at the last Salt water show here in NJ to get their ear, Tom was there as well as myself and other who care enough to try and make changes.
Sadly it seemed they would help but also wanted input on the wind farms soon to hit our fishing areas.

It is the ASA choice to spend that money fighting for fisherman, of course groups who actually get off their ass are the ones who get the most from them,
IF NJ fisherman would all write to them possibly a larger voice would come from it.
BUT instead its easier to just spend 5 minutes and bitch here on deaf ears.

.
.

[Brewlugger]

I'm in no position to complain as I have not been involved with any meetings rallies or letter writing. I do care about the health of the fishery and I like to stay informed but I really haven't done anything for the cause besides trying to be an ethical sport fisherman and only keep enough Fluke for my family and my mom and dad to eat. The guys I fish with get mad at me for throwing keepers back but they haven't done anything for the cause either but they keep as much fish as they can legally take. I have been doing alot of land based fishing this year and I really enjoy meeting other anglers and to a man they are complaining about fisheries mismanagement and they are all disgusted. When I was in Gloucester Mass they guys were mad about not being able to keep Cod up there , so it seems like it's a pretty broad problem. As far as me complaining I try and keep my mouth shut and my ears open.

[Capt Sal]

Money!!!!!!!!!!!

[bunker dunker]

hey hammer,you seem like you got all the knowledge on this so let me ask you one question please.what has new jersey done for the rec saltwater angler in regards to fluke in the last 30 years???

[Rocky]

Money!!!!!!!!!!!

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67353416_777587322638085_2043775645388898304_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=108&_nc_eui2=AeHQa_Aud9R3lizo49eVcGzxaeqSHHEGwWJqYJqlB Fh52jafckYJYRvaBRZBB0nIxVGf_d31cSdo_pnASlqVWyRKP95 rXRBiW-hh7y6ZHrSPyg&_nc_oc=AQkSP2ZJqOUQGqUcWhY-tK3C1qeLYcDHk17n2C01YdB8E4ZaDYVneRnc1D95uupsuz3IAC f088QzWg93GWVFXOOv&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=3b2eba42e266ca60211bc44e4c276d2e&oe=5DA67806

[dakota560]

no worries mr dakota,all is good.i just think they will not stop or bend until we hit them were is hurts,their wallet.hypothetically if 300 peeps showed up with
summons i believe that would tie up the courts and cost them money.again i believe it what all are doing,including yourself.i just don't believe that the state
government believes or cares.

BD in general I agree with you. Believe our distinguished state Senators and Representatives for the most part have done NOTHING to help our cause. There might be exceptions to that statement but I'm not versed enough in past politics to know who they might be.

One thing I do know is if NJ elected to go out of compliance, it not only effects recreational and commercials operators regarding summer flounder, it effects all fisheries I believe outside the EEZ zone or three miles from shore. Basically it shuts every fishery down. That's not an option I believe anyone wants to consider.

As far as money is concerned, unfortunately the recreational community doesn't have it and is poorly organized. Without it, the only hope we have lies in the data and making as many people as possible aware of what the data is telling us and the impact regulations are having on the health of the fishery and disproportionate allocation of the resource. There's a 60 / 40 split in catch quota every year favoring commercials to start with, then factor in the portion of the biomass commercials have access to (14" and above) relative to recreational in NJ @18', Va @18.5 and NY, Ct and RI @ 19", the disparity in proportionate access to the resource is staggering. Don't believe Magnuson Stevens Act or subsequent re-authorizations had that intention in mind.

In my opinion, bringing those facts to the Council and Committees publicly and being relentless making this knowledge public involving arguably the most vital fishery of the Mid-Atlantic States is the course of action and path in my opinion we need to follow. I might be completely off target on this but that's the approach I'm going with using their own data to support my findings and conclusions.

[Rocky]

How many politicians have actually fought for our fishing rights? Not many. They showed up for picture oppurtunities during the rallies, did their little speeches on how they would fight for us recreational fishermen and, left. Thats it! We have so little representation in the state and D.C. it is so pathetic.

[dales529]

Tom Dakota passion and analytical skills have opened a new dialogue with both sides of the regulatory process. Hopefully this equates to some accountability on the failures of on going regulations as Tom states it's their data. This is a new path without the state or DC politicians although I suspect eventually it could end up there but if it does it will be because Tom is correct and if so they can't hide from their own data.
All I know is that I am glad he is doing this and it has renewed my hope to a better fishing future so happy to give him all the help and support required. Why not. If it fails we tried and if it succeeds we will have been part of a solution. Keep at it Tom!

[Rocky]

Tom Dakota passion and analytical skills have opened a new dialogue with both sides of the regulatory process. Hopefully this equates to some accountability on the failures of on going regulations as Tom states it's their data. This is a new path without the state or DC politicians although I suspect eventually it could end up there but if it does it will be because Tom is correct and if so they can't hide from their own data.
All I know is that I am glad he is doing this and it has renewed my hope to a better fishing future so happy to give him all the help and support required. Why not. If it fails we tried and if it succeeds we will have been part of a solution. Keep at it Tom!

I cannot agree with you anymore. Using their own numbers and data to show them facts not guesses as they seem to be doing.

[hammer4reel]

hey hammer,you seem like you got all the knowledge on this so let me ask you one question please.what has new jersey done for the rec saltwater angler in regards to fluke in the last 30 years???

They haven't done a thing .
They are too afraid of all the fisheries being closed down .
.
What I can say is the president of the ASA is Chris Megan from On the water magazine .
If more guys pushed letters towards him possibly more help could come to NJ .
.
The meeting held at the Edison shoe showed a glimmer of hope . But honestly haven't seen much since . .
Topics are only hot when kept in their face

[bunker dunker]

thank you and i know there are some that are doing way more than their share
and i for one commend them for it.so then it is safe to say that after 30 years
of trying and nothing at all happening we should just keep doing the things we have been doing for 30 years?????just think of the things that have happened in
the last 30 years in this country and we can't even come up with a marine fisheries management plan that makes sense for comm and rec peeps?????
hammer,dales,dakota and all who are up and fighting,i wish you well.i for one will
just fish as i see fit.

[AndyS]

Name one fish you can catch in New Jersey waters 12 months out of the year. That is part of the problem, that and a million people fishing for over 200 types of fish, the sun doesn't rise and set because of fluke.

[hammer4reel]

Name one fish you can catch in New Jersey waters 12 months out of the year. That is part of the problem, that and a million people fishing for over 200 types of fish, the sun doesn't rise and set because of fluke.
Actually fluke are the most sought after Fish in NJ.
Freshwater fisherman are only about 10% of the overall group .and many of those fish both.
Losing a much sought after fish sets the stage for less sought after fish.
And also adds to the pressure on those other fisheries .
Can only imagine how bad you would cry if a million anglers decided to come fish for trout .
Or better yet decided they would rather promote all bass fisheries and drop trout

[AndyS]

Stop with the "what ifs", and comparing saltwater to freshwater is like comparing apples to oranges.

[dakota560]

Name one fish you can catch in New Jersey waters 12 months out of the year. That is part of the problem, that and a million people fishing for over 200 types of fish, the sun doesn't rise and set because of fluke.

Andy I might be missing your point but as Dan just pointed out summer flounder is one of the most vital and sought after fish in the Mid-Atlantic States. The sun may not rise and set based on the health of the fishery for all but try convincing party, for hire and commercial of that when peoples livelihoods are being horse traded and put at risk. Balance is everything. Take away summer flounder as we're seeing today and that applies more pressure on other stocks. porgies, ling, sea bass, bonito anything that will make up a day's catch and keep people in business.

The Raritan River isn't the only river in NJ but you have a passion for keeping it clean. Summer flounder isn't the only game in town but if it fails and it has it's going to have significant social and economic impacts to many people in many industries across many states. The problems facing the fishery in my mind are clear, we need to convince fisheries management the current regulations are imposing more harm than good. That's the mission and there's people working diligently to get those points on the table and addressed. Who knows if we'll be successful but as the saying goes it won't be for lack of effort.

[reason162]

A probable scenario playing out in front of our eyes is...the fluke are fine, but they're just leaving.

Conspiracy theories are entertaining to read, and it's in our nature to point fingers and find someone to blame. But if in 10 years what happened to NC happens to us, ie fluke keeps migrating north, the humans to blame would probably sit on the board of Exxon-Mobile.

More to the point: Since fluke trend northwards as they age to begin with, and if the entire range is shifting north due to climate change...the fight in the immediate future is to relax size limits for NJ. I'm okay with that as long as the science (not "economic impact") bears it out.

[NoLimit]

No this BS again. How exactly is a 7/10 increase in air temp making the fluke move north?! The answer is It Isn’t. A shift in wind will change the water temp 20 times as much.

[Honger]

First Honger you're a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being. Inappropriate ethnic slurs have no place on this site or anywhere else.

LOL. You know what sir? I am an "Asian" and a "yellow" person. If you couldn't read the between lines of my joke or sarcasm, you did not pay attention to the preceding posts that prompted my response in sarcastic manner.

Why is it that when a fish like crappie and fluke are being sold at a market it is then noted that it is being sold at an "asian market"? I have seen things sold at "non-asian" markets that I thought, why TF is this being sold at this price or why?, but no one ever says that "Oh wow, I see this thing being sold at "Caucasian Market, middle east market, black market, etc.".

I have heard on boats when I go fishing, on this forum, and in tackle shops, how "Asians and yellow people" are culpurits for most of illegal fishing. I even heard that we wiped out black fish in Atlantic because we use a secret bait called sea urchins. Pretty ridiculous. Oh yeah, I also heard that we wiped out Mackeral because we like mackeral sushi so much and "we" pay premium price for it. "Live Fish Market"? yes, we wiped out the fish because we thirst for live fish. Very educated judgement considering that there is 1 Asian out of 30 people in NY/NJ area (I think).

Let me say this, most of you guys preach "conservation", "dont waste meat", "save the breeders". Well you know what? are most of you so privileged that you fillet all of your fish to just harvest 1/3 of your catch? How much meat are being wasted by throwing away the rest of the fish after you fillet them? Maybe we didnt have to take 25 seabass home if we all knew how to utilize our catch to the fullest. There is a country, if you care to look, that has zero fishing regulations, however they just have some guidelines for people to follow. Their fishery is doing well, both recreational and commercial, maybe they are doing something right that this country cant figure out?

If a simple comment that I made "I thought Asians wiped out the fishes" constitutes me as a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being, what do we call 99% of the population that are living in this country?

As for lack of Fluke, maybe they don't feel like or have the need to come to Jersey shore anymore? ever think about that? I used to go to Atlantic City often, but not anymore, like most other people.

Problem? Call me. 201-681-5132

[dakota560]

LOL. You know what sir? I am an "Asian" and a "yellow" person. If you couldn't read the between lines of my joke or sarcasm, you did not pay attention to the preceding posts that prompted my response in sarcastic manner.

Why is it that when a fish like crappie and fluke are being sold at a market it is then noted that it is being sold at an "Asian market"? I have seen things sold at "non-asian" markets that I thought, why TF is this being sold at this price or why?, but no one ever says that "Oh wow, I see this thing being sold at "Caucasian Market, middle east market, black market, etc.".

I have heard on boats when I go fishing, on this forum, and in tackle shops, how "Asians and yellow people" are culprits for most of illegal fishing. I even heard that we wiped out black fish in Atlantic because we use a secret bait called sea urchins. Pretty ridiculous. Oh yeah, I also heard that we wiped out Mackerel because we like mackerel sushi so much and "we" pay premium price for it. "Live Fish Market"? yes, we wiped out the fish because we thirst for live fish. Very educated judgement considering that there is 1 Asian out of 30 people in NY/NJ area (I think).

Let me say this, most of you guys preach "conservation", "dont waste meat", "save the breeders". Well you know what? are most of you so privileged that you fillet all of your fish to just harvest 1/3 of your catch? How much meat are being wasted by throwing away the rest of the fish after you fillet them? Maybe we didnt have to take 25 seabass home if we all knew how to utilize our catch to the fullest. There is a country, if you care to look, that has zero fishing regulations, however they just have some guidelines for people to follow. Their fishery is doing well, both recreational and commercial, maybe they are doing something right that this country cant figure out?

If a simple comment that I made "I thought Asians wiped out the fishes" constitutes me as a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being, what do we call 99% of the population that are living in this country?

As for lack of Fluke, maybe they don't feel like or have the need to come to Jersey shore anymore? ever think about that? I used to go to Atlantic City often, but not anymore, like most other people.

Problem? Call me. 201-681-5132

Definition of an Asian Market:

An Asian supermarket is a category of grocery stores in Western countries that stocks items imported from the multiple countries in East, South and Southeast Asia. Supermarkets in Asia generally (except for the Middle East) have no equivalent to the "Asian" supermarkets of the West; foodstuffs in each respective Asian country have vastly different regulations and supply chains from one another, so stores are localized for each country's tastes and only carry locally approved items for that market. Examples of this: seaweed snacks, originate in Japan where they are salty or savory, in Thailand they are often spicy and locally produced.

An Asian Market is not a politically incorrect or derogatory term.

The comment you replied to about crappy was my comment and I was emphasizing two things and two things only. First I never saw them sold in any market and the price I thought was ridiculous at 17.99 / lb. Nothing derogatory was said or intended about culture. Apparently someone else thought your reply was inappropriate also as it was deleted so no I didn't read in between the lines as probably most who read your post didn't either.

All other points from your recent post are your words, not mine. Find it interesting you take exception to me criticizing what I thought were derogatory comments about Asians in your post yet you go on a tirade about this country's culture in your most recent rant. If you find this country's culture that offensive, you have options like everyone else.

Your statement "As for lack of Fluke, maybe they don't feel like or have the need to come to Jersey shore anymore? ever think about that? I used to go to Atlantic City often, but not anymore, like most other people."

I must say thank God I actually never have thought about that. If I had, I'd start worrying. Are you saying you don't go to Atlantic City anymore because of the onerous fluke regulations in place or fluke don't come to New Jersey because they don't like Atlantic City? Wasn't sure exactly the point you're trying to make.

Fyi, not smart posting your phone number on the internet, might consider deleting that.

[dakota560]

A probable scenario playing out in front of our eyes is...the fluke are fine, but they're just leaving.

Conspiracy theories are entertaining to read, and it's in our nature to point fingers and find someone to blame. But if in 10 years what happened to NC happens to us, ie fluke keeps migrating north, the humans to blame would probably sit on the board of Exxon-Mobile.

More to the point: Since fluke trend northwards as they age to begin with, and if the entire range is shifting north due to climate change...the fight in the immediate future is to relax size limits for NJ. I'm okay with that as long as the science (not "economic impact") bears it out.

I try following your logic and believe you to be an intelligent person, but your posts and insatiable obsession with science can do no wrong has me perplexed as well as your theories without facts to support them, the same scenario you criticize others of.

Maybe summer flounder left southern regions because of the first chart. NC and Va make up and have made up between 50% - 60% of the commercial summer flounder harvest for years. First chart reflects commercial harvest for the years '80 - '17 from 66th stock assessment and the 70's were even worse regarding NC's and Va's combined percentage of the overall commercial harvest. In 1979, 26 million lbs of the 39 million lbs commercially harvested were by NC and Va. In 1980 21 million of the 31 million lbs and in 1984 22 million of the 38 million lbs came from those two southern states. Maybe what appears to be a northerly migration of the southern biomass is in fact an obliteration of it due to over harvest by commercial fishing efforts no different than what happened in NJ years ago to whiting, ling, mackerel and cod as commercial efforts destroyed the local fisheries and the stock appeared to moved north.

What proof is there that southern stocks moved north due to changes in water temperatures......NONE. Is it more plausible to believe the two states that have 50-60% of the commercial harvest, two of the largest commercial fleets on the east coast decimated the summer flounder fishery biomass in their own local southern waters, in my opinion it is.

Large fluke migrate north seeking out colder water is your theory. Guess ling, sea bass and porgies which are all colder water species with east west migration patterns comparable to fluke don't have those same problems. Guess that's also why when the first wave of fluke come in they seek out skinny warmer water in back bays because they love cold water so much.......lol! Guess we get a surge in July, August and September of bigger fish when the water warms up because summer flounder prefer colder temperatures, all facts that contradict your position

I'd love for you to share which part of the science you're so enamored with. The part that gave us the second and third charts about recreational catch now based on "FES" Fishing Effort Survey or new MRIP versus "CHTS" Coastal Household Telephone Survey or old MRIP which cost us dearly in catch quotas for 2019 and will for foreseeable years if changes aren't made. And most of the incremental catch is said to be from shore based efforts, imagine that Look at the numbers, they're off the charts. Has anyone taken the time to review the newly improved mail order form being used. Attached link has it.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/recreational-fishing-data/types-recreational-fishing-surveys#fishing-effort-survey

Half way down under "Supporting Documents" click on FES Sample Survey and it will show you a 2-part PDF form. Aside from the bizarre questions being asked, there's not one question concerning actual fish landed or discarded. Net result is recreational anglers are being assessed almost 7 million lbs. more a year because of a new data collection process as speculative as the old.

Or should we bow down to science which has reduced relative recruitment strength for over 30 years, or science which has reduced spawning stock biomass and the biomass in general over the last 17 years or should we honor science which due to size increases has removed the recreational communities fishing access to approximately 30% of the biomass which commercial operators now exclusively harvest as a result of our discards along with the 60% share of the catch quota they already benefit from. And let's not forget the science which just dished out a 40% increase to the commercial quota for '19. Or maybe we should honor science which due to regulations appears to have destroyed age classes 0-2 of the biomass due to increases in recreational size limits over the last twenty years. There's sufficient NMFS data which I've shared with the board to support each of these facts.

So please enlighten us with how science has benefited this failed fishery for the last two to three decades because quite frankly the data, THEIR DATA, paints a completely different picture.

As I've said we need science, but we need accurate data from scientific efforts and we need intelligent decisions being made based on that data. Not decisions based on legislation adopted 43-years ago not addressing the issues causing a prolonged and substantial decline to the fishery.

[reason162]

I try following your logic...

Re NC, you have it backwards: they were allocated the lion's share of fluke because they had more fluke decades ago than any other state. They haven't been able to fill their quotas for years in home waters...because the fluke have migrated north. Ditto BSB, ditto hundreds of other species, in response to climate change.

Whether you believe in climate change or not, it's happening. The fish don't care what you can or cannot wrap your head around...sorry.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190430141611.htm

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/health/environment/global-warming-climate-change-new-jersey-flounder-sea-bass-rutgers-20180518.html

https://phys.org/news/2018-06-climate-fish-faster-fishing.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/uncivil-war-breaks-out-over-fluke-as-habitat-shifts-north/

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16052018/fish-species-climate-change-migration-pacific-northwest-alaska-atlantic-gulf-maine-cod-pollock

https://e360.yale.edu/features/feeling-the-heat-warming-oceans-drive-fish-into-cooler-waters

[AndyS]

I did a tilefish trip a few year back and we were BAILING blueline tilefish like porgies. The limit went to 7 blueline tilefish for NJ boats, ooops not a word was spoken or posted about that. Now tell me how the sun rises and sets on these pathetic fluke, I'm waiting.

For the recreational fishery, the Council recommended an open season from May 1 to October 31, when blueline tilefish are available to most anglers throughout the Mid-Atlantic. Recreational bag limits would be set at 7 fish per person for inspected for-hire vessels, 5 fish per person for uninspected for-hire vessels, and 3 fish per person for private vessels. In addition, the Council recommended mandatory permitting and reporting of golden and blueline tilefish for both for-hire and private recreational fishing in order to develop better information on recreational tilefish landings in the Mid-Atlantic.

[dakota560]

Re NC, you have it backwards: they were allocated the lion's share of fluke because they had more fluke decades ago than any other state. They haven't been able to fill their quotas for years in home waters...because the fluke have migrated north. Ditto BSB, ditto hundreds of other species, in response to climate change.

Whether you believe in climate change or not, it's happening. The fish don't care what you can or cannot wrap your head around...sorry.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190430141611.htm

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/health/environment/global-warming-climate-change-new-jersey-flounder-sea-bass-rutgers-20180518.html

https://phys.org/news/2018-06-climate-fish-faster-fishing.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/uncivil-war-breaks-out-over-fluke-as-habitat-shifts-north/

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16052018/fish-species-climate-change-migration-pacific-northwest-alaska-atlantic-gulf-maine-cod-pollock

https://e360.yale.edu/features/feeling-the-heat-warming-oceans-drive-fish-into-cooler-waters

This dialogue would be more productive if you answered questions with facts. None of the material discrepancies in science I've identified or pointed out are included in your selective reply.

Your statement "NC, you have it backwards: they were allocated the lion's share of fluke because they had more fluke decades ago than any other state". Explain then how the first chart doesn't support that statement. North Carolina wasn't close to other states until the 70's when they started harvesting their offshore winter commercial fishery right around the same time the fishery started it's collapse into the early 80's. Numbers don't lie.

Apologies for the size font but read the second attachment about the NC commercial summer flounder fishery. 99% of their landings take place during winter trawls. Translated, 99% of the state with the largest commercial quota occurs during the summer flounder primary spawn. Absolutely smart fisheries management. That statement is followed up with "It's not clear what's responsible for the decrease in age class fish 0-1 in NC's landings" You think maybe they ended white side up on the bottom of the ocean. Funny how when their's and Virginia's landings sky-rocketed in the mid 70's, the biomass began it's collapse in the early 80's.

To be clear, I believe climate change is happening and needs to be dealt with, you'd be a fool to believe otherwise. What I don't believe in is the extent of impact people are suggesting it's having on the fishery. I guess the BSB biomass and porgy populations migrated back south when regulations were established to address commercial over-harvest as we see those fisheries rebounding locally today. I believe in areas with less commercial pressure, expansion of fish stocks is happening which theorists will immediately attribute to climate change related movement north. I seem to remember you schooling the site about correlation and causation, you might consider heeding your own advice. I guess we should also believe climate change wasn't an issue between 1989 - 2002 when the biomass increased by 900% and the local fishery was in excellent condition because at that time recreational size increase legislation just started initiating an imbalance in the gender composition of SSB and an unprecedented decrease in recruitment strength we've been living the negative impacts of for almost two decades.

The facts speak for themselves. If you can't wrap your head around that or support your positions with data from fisheries management.......sorry.

[reason162]

To be clear, I believe climate change is happening and needs to be dealt with, you'd be a fool to believe otherwise. What I don't believe in is the extent of impact people are suggesting it's having on the fishery.

Your posts re fluke center around 2 themes: sex ratio imbalance and unsustainable commercial harvesting. Neither of these are born out by the data. You are going against the grain of scientific consensus as it stands today.

Your goal is to relax size limits. Great! If the biomass is shifting north, and size increases in the northern range vs the southern range (and that IS the scientific consensus), you arrive at your goal of looser size restrictions by aligning yourself with the scientific community.

In other words...your prolific efforts up to this point is largely misguided. Focus on the accepted science of climate change and how it's influencing migratory patterns, and you end up in the same place. Except then you'd largely be making sense doing it.

[dakota560]

I did a tilefish trip a few year back and we were BAILING blueline tilefish like porgies. The limit went to 7 blueline tilefish for NJ boats, ooops not a word was spoken or posted about that. Now tell me how the sun rises and sets on these pathetic fluke, I'm waiting.


There was quite a stir when limits were imposed on blue lines. Still don't get your disdain against summer flounder which happens to be one of if not the most important fisheries both socially and economically for the Mid-Atlantic States. I don't recall anyone saying the sun rises and sets on summer flounder but if your opinion is it's not a vital resource I couldn't disagree with you more.

Think you're going to have to keep waiting because truthfully I don't even understand the basis of your analogy. One fishery has nothing to do with the other and couldn't be more polar opposite.

[dakota560]

Your posts re fluke center around 2 themes: sex ratio imbalance and unsustainable commercial harvesting. Neither of these are born out by the data. You are going against the grain of scientific consensus as it stands today.

Your goal is to relax size limits. Great! If the biomass is shifting north, and size increases in the northern range vs the southern range (and that IS the scientific consensus), you arrive at your goal of looser size restrictions by aligning yourself with the scientific community.

In other words...your prolific efforts up to this point is largely misguided. Focus on the accepted science of climate change and how it's influencing migratory patterns, and you end up in the same place. Except then you'd largely be making sense doing it.

My posts revolve around a distinct relationship illustrating a decrease in recruitment levels in the absolute and relative to SSB which coincides with the precise timing of increases in size limits for recreational anglers and responsible for consequential changes in the composition of commercial and recreational harvest with larger sexually mature fish albeit for different reasons. Recreational due to size limit mandates, commercial based on a conscious effort to harvest larger fish having greater market values. ALL FACTS. whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. All that in addition to an extreme disparity in access to the resource between commercial and recreational interests due to the same recreational size limit increases while commercial size limits remained status quo.

My goal is to bring those issues to the surface with fisheries management which are the underlying reasons in my opinion causing the fishery to fail unless of course your definition of a successful fishery involves a declining biomass even with catch levels being cut by two-thirds over the last three decades. The data supports my positions and conclusions 100% in spite of your inability to comprehend that. Your cross to bear, not mine. Regardless of where the biomass is located and why, if you read the attached two charts as signs of a healthy fishery which outline those catch level reductions, SSB continuing it's 17-yr downward trend and recruitment continuing to fail over a significantly more prolonged 35-yr period then there's really no need for continued discussions. Can't have an intellectual fact-based discussion with someone who lacks the capacity to interpret data. Your obsession with science doing no wrong in light of material discrepancies and inconsistencies in their own data and your position on climate change have skewed your perspective of reality. Just keep enjoying the banner fluke season we're currently having, keep subsidizing the commercial harvest with discards while commercials enjoy their 40% quota increase and laugh all the way to the bank at our expense.

[OH HENRY II]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but, is this pissing contest over yet?:rolleyes:

[JeffZ]

This is why we are where we are and will continue to stay there

[dakota560]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but, is this pissing contest over yet?:rolleyes:

Will focus my efforts on addressing observations and concerns with the various federal fishery management agencies who hold the fate of many including our children's rights to these fisheries in their hands along with industry and state organizations that have a vested interest in these outcomes. Sharing information on this site, at least of a regulatory nature, with those who'd prefer to sit on the side lines and bitch as opposed to becoming educated is a pointless exercise so consider the pissing match over.

[AndyS]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but, is this pissing contest over yet?:rolleyes:

Not even close, Bud !

[Billfish715]

https://www.njfishing.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=135581&d=1563541310
In response to Reason 162's conclusion that fish populations are moving north because of climate change, global warming, greenhouse gasses, carbon dioxide dome, ozone level or whatever today's, current politically correct terminology is, please look at the chart. If summer flounder numbers are leaving their southern grounds because of any of the above reasons, it would stand to reason that their landings would also increase in the northern range of the Mid Atlantic states like NJ or R.I.

Check the chart. I don't see much, if any, noticeable changes other than the decreased landings in a state like N.C. If the fluke are leaving N.C. because of temperature changes, they should show up in larger numbers where the water is cooler. That would be a logical conclusion. The landing numbers in N.J. don't seem to indicate any increase. I guess because our ocean waters are too warm as well. Then, they should be showing up in larger numbers in places like Massachusetts and Maine where the waters are cooler. They aren't there either.

I've fished locally over the past few years in places like Barnegate Bay, and the
Manasquan, Shark, Shrewsbury, and Navesink Rivers where fluke are still being caught despite the warm shallow water. Given the climate change, warming waters theory, those fluke should never have been there or should certainly have left by the end of May. They seem to have taken a liking to the warm, bait-choked waters where they can fatten up before migrating offshore to spawn.

I'm having a real problem with accepting the climate change theory in general and more toward how it is supposedly affecting the summer flounder numbers or their migration.

Finally, check the recreational numbers of fluke that have been landed since the over-regulations were implemented in the early'80's. As the size limits increased, the "landings" have decreased. Does it mean there are fewer fluke? I don't think so. If you can't keep a fluke, it doesn't get included in the landing totals. As the size limits kept increasing, the landing numbers have kept decreasing. Is there a correlation? I say, Yes! So, it appears there are fewer fluke when actually it can be concluded that by raising the size limits, fewer legal fish are being caught or reported.

If the size limit was raised to 20" would there be fewer fluke, or fewer fluke harvested and reported?

Finally.......If the agencies that are in charge of regulating the fisheries programs are government agencies, and, if the government works for us, why won't they concede that the public, recreational fishermen want things to change? Someone mentioned a pissing contest. Well, it is. Only, it's between the recreational anglers and the government agencies. Right now, the government hasn't made any concessions and that's just not right.

[Capt Sal]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but, is this pissing contest over yet?:rolleyes:

What have you done to help preserve our sport?

[Capt. Lou]

You might ask the tackle companies this same question , To my knowledge there is my one that continually steps up and has been on the forefront of fisheries issues for decades ! AFTCO !
Years back they helped save our fluke fishery by selling T Shirts and donating all profits to RFA !
Why the hell we support any of these guys like the majors is on you ! They don’t give a dam when it comes to local fisheries and business support on the east coast !
Many aren’t American owned companies and we are forced to purchase there products because so dam few American companies can compete with sweatshop manufacturing !
Not only is our fisheries system broken but so is our manufacturing system ! We give our dollars the the wrong people !

[dales529]

Here is a brief and most likely feeble attempt to try and rein in a thread like this.
Back in 2008 - 2010 Gerry agreed at my and others beckoning to start a Fisheries "Regulations / Management" Thread which to date is still located however "locked" for posting at the bottom of the main page. To me its is still a wealth of information and I suggest anyone who posted here to take some time reliving the past. Our "forefathers" have left posting but are still very involved in regulations. Some of our best on this site have also passed on in this life like LAB and other chose to continue the fight behind the scenes due to the bickering but honoring their legacy is still to date very important.

Enter Tom Dakota: We talk daily about the process through emails . phone calls, travel to meetings and some time fishing. We do not always agree on everything but its been nothing short of a very productive effort to date.

What is most important to recognize is this (Toms analysis) effort is difficult within the process but NOT reliant on politicians (yet), climate change and or science peer review. All of the data Tom is talking about has been peer reviewed and presented to the government and us as the data that dictates our regulations. Its NOAA's Data pure and simple looked at and trended in a different perspective based on that same data.

What is happening:
Tom's Data (Again based on NOAA Data) has been presented and is being reviewed by the SSC (Science Statistical Committee, the technical committee, NOAA , ASA (American Sportsman Association) RFA etc and I believe it will be in the ASMFC Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Council meeting materials for upcoming meetings in Sept / Oct. No EASY task.

We will attend and defend this data until they prove him wrong. May work maybe not but my god quite an effort.

Leave all the other stuff to another thread as none of is relative. This is based on NOAA data submitted and peer reviewed that is the result of our regulations. Sorry Recreational MRIP , SAW assessments, trawls, catch and mortality assessments are NOT Science, While i personally agree that Climate change should be considered and stocks of Fluke are migrating northward I believe to the tune of 20 miles per decade its NOT yet factored in to our current regulations.
So lets leave TOM , myself and many many others to do the work most wont and see what happens. A slot fish maybe in our future with enough support and less BS,

[Fortunate Son]

A slot @15-18 would be perfect. That's what I wrote in to the comments section of the striper survey sent out earlier in the season. Thanks for all your efforts.

[OH HENRY II]

What have you done to help preserve our sport?

How many time do you load your boat with trash picked from the water? I do it every time! 10-20lbs

[OH HENRY II]

Will focus my efforts on addressing observations and concerns with the various federal fishery management agencies who hold the fate of many including our children's rights to these fisheries in their hands along with industry and state organizations that have a vested interest in these outcomes. Sharing information on this site, at least of a regulatory nature, with those who'd prefer to sit on the side lines and bitch as opposed to becoming educated is a pointless exercise so consider the pissing match over.

We all need to educate our children on how to follow rules/laws and not hand them everything they want and teach them to fight for their rights. Respect is earned, not given. The only one bitching you!

[OH HENRY II]

A slot @15-18 would be perfect. That's what I wrote in to the comments section of the striper survey sent out earlier in the season. Thanks for all your efforts.

At that size they'd need to increase the bag limit to 10 to have a meal.

[dales529]

We all need to educate our children on how to follow rules/laws and not hand them everything they want and teach them to fight for their rights. Respect is earned, not given. The only one bitching you!

LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:

[AndyS]

I don't buy the whole climate change, migration stuff one bit. Like it was said, then we would be sitting on the bio-mass from North Carolina.

[OH HENRY II]

[QUOTE=dales529;534640]LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:[/Q
"To my thinking"? Really? Like i'm beneath you. Where I went wrong is when I tried to converse with someone like you who I thought would be the person to inform us on what's happening . Don't think the fighting you do for the fishery goes un-noticed, but get over yourself. Don't worry, I will no longer post any comments or anything else including fishing reports especially now that I know "my thinking" isn't acceptable. Good luck. Gerry, please feel free to remove me from posting if deemed necessary.

[bunker dunker]

great just great,we are now fighting each other.as i have said and will always say"thank you to all who are doing what they can" to help this fishery.we have facts,graphs and all that goes with it but we still have no answers or change.if i may use a little common sense{and i don't have much} why are they making us take bigger fish when most of the bigger fish are females????last i checked these
fish need male and female to make little fluke.i for one am done with jersey fluking and spend my time fishing in new england and spending my money there as well.i have waited long enough to know that our elected officials don't care enough about us or what we try to do,it is a shame.how come other states don't have these problems????

[Capt Sal]

[QUOTE=OH HENRY II;534647][QUOTE=dales529;534640]LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:[/Q
"To my thinking"? Really? Like i'm beneath you. Where I went wrong is when I tried to converse with someone like you who I thought would be the person to inform us on what's happening . Don't think the fighting you do for the fishery goes un-noticed, but get over yourself. Don't worry, I will no longer post any comments or anything else including fishing reports especially now that I know "my thinking" isn't acceptable. Good luck. Gerry, please feel free to remove me from posting if deemed necessary.[/ Your post does not make sense.So he disagrees with you and you get all huffy. Grow up.

[dales529]

[QUOTE=dales529;534640]LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:[/Q
"To my thinking"? Really? Like i'm beneath you. Where I went wrong is when I tried to converse with someone like you who I thought would be the person to inform us on what's happening . Don't think the fighting you do for the fishery goes un-noticed, but get over yourself. Don't worry, I will no longer post any comments or anything else including fishing reports especially now that I know "my thinking" isn't acceptable. Good luck. Gerry, please feel free to remove me from posting if deemed necessary.

OH HENRY
My post was regarding your comment that Dakota is the ONE "Bitching". That man has spent countless hours generating documents, charts, analysis etc to help get us out of this poor federal management so just thought you may want to re think that statement. IF i misunderstood your post my apologies. I would never think you or anyone else that posts on here is beneath me as I dont know you or many others and the ones i do know have become life long friends.Also you never tried to converse with ME you just made a post on Dakotas comments which I felt the need to address. I dont need to get over myself as i dont think I do that much but have taken the time to be involved for many years and hope it helps. Believe me there are many that do more. Hope that ends any personal issues and by all means keep posting. The fight is not among us

[dales529]

I don't buy the whole climate change, migration stuff one bit. Like it was said, then we would be sitting on the bio-mass from North Carolina.

Andy.
I am not sure yet on Fluke but NOAA is definitely saying Black Sea Bass biomass has migrated from NC and NJ IS fishing on the southern biomass to the point that NC Boats are steaming 10 hours each way to fill their NC Quota. There is also legislation being presented to let them unload here in NJ and have their catch counted on NC quota. My guess is the same will happen with fluke shortly, It doesnt matter anymore who subscribes to Climate change or not fish stocks in large numbers have changed their patterns in a northward trend and that is just a fact.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/feeling-the-heat-warming-oceans-drive-fish-into-cooler-waters

[GDubya07]

Dave the only thing beneath you is me and the bait bucket - :confused:???

Hey Everyone E.L.E - Everybody Love\Like Everybody - Jackie Moon Semi Pro

and in the immortal words of Rodney King - "Cant we all just get along" - google it Millennial's

BTW, Dave and Tom are some of the nicest hard working guys around fighting for our right to fish and do the work that most of us wont, cant or dont want to do , just saying

Now back to our regularly after school special - Showing my age here Remember John Travolta in the boy in the bubble ? Remember School House Rock?

GDubs-:cool:

[dakota560]

GDubs you're a good man, I mean that sincerely. As Dave mentioned in his post the other day, the fight is not among us, the fight or challenge if you will is to preserve as many fisheries as possible for future generations to enjoy not just for recreational enjoyment but for the businesses inclusive of commercial operators who depend on them for their livelihoods. No one in my opinion should benefit at the expense of others which is another way of saying the focus should be on the fishery as a whole and secondarily how it's being allocated among it's constituents.

Oh Henry, I wasn't coming at you or trying to insult you in any way. I was simply trying to defuse the situation per your request and ended up creating another Chernobyl! If it came across that way, my apologies as well. What's happening with our fisheries is beyond frustrating and that frustration combined with the internet is at times an explosive combination. I've always believed in my life heated debate is a good thing as long as it's respectful. Sometimes those lines get blurred but that's always been my intentions here. Sometimes I've crossed the lines but try to learn from those mistakes and be a better person for it.

I can tell you I wouldn't be as engaged in the summer flounder fishery if it weren't for many including Gerry and Dave. Dave's been a great mentor and greater friend who has a wealth of knowledge with fisheries management and the process but more importantly a wealth of humility. There's a lot going on behind the scenes by many a lot of people don't see which can be discussed at a later time. We're fighting or trying to work with Washington here and the many Agencies, Councils, Sub-Committees involved, maybe one of life's greatest challenges so even though results haven't shown it yet I'd ask everyone to be patient and understanding. There are people who care and have the time or desire or resources or all of the above to get involved. Not everyone has that luxury and I get that. I believe progress is being made, ultimately time will tell. This is your typical marathon not sprint situation but I honestly believe we're starting to gain traction and getting the right people's attention. It might prove out I'm delusional but it might prove out I'm right. I'll take that chance.

Either way, I'd like to think we all have a vested interest and common thread that binds us together here as opposed to an array of issues breaking us apart. That's how I plan on looking at it regardless and will keep trying to cause substantive and positive change until I can't do it anymore. Too many good hard working people's livelihoods are at stake and I want my children and grandchildren to have the same enjoyment with this sport as I've had with my family and friends growing up.

[OH HENRY II]

GDubs you're a good man, I mean that sincerely. As Dave mentioned in his post the other day, the fight is not among us, the fight or challenge if you will is to preserve as many fisheries as possible for future generations to enjoy not just for recreational enjoyment but for the businesses inclusive of commercial operators who depend on them for their livelihoods. No one in my opinion should benefit at the expense of others which is another way of saying the focus should be on the fishery as a whole and secondarily how it's being allocated among it's constituents.

Oh Henry, I wasn't coming at you or trying to insult you in any way. I was simply trying to defuse the situation per your request and ended up creating another Chernobyl! If it came across that way, my apologies as well. What's happening with our fisheries is beyond frustrating and that frustration combined with the internet is at times an explosive combination. I've always believed in my life heated debate is a good thing as long as it's respectful. Sometimes those lines get blurred but that's always been my intentions here. Sometimes I've crossed the lines but try to learn from those mistakes and be a better person for it.

I can tell you I wouldn't be as engaged in the summer flounder fishery if it weren't for many including Gerry and Dave. Dave's been a great mentor and greater friend who has a wealth of knowledge with fisheries management and the process but more importantly a wealth of humility. There's a lot going on behind the scenes by many which a lot of people don't see which can be discussed at a later time. We're fighting or trying to work with Washington here and the many Agencies, Councils, Sub-Committees involved, maybe one of life's greatest challenges so even though results haven't shown it yet I'd ask everyone to be patient and understanding. There are people who care and have the time or desire or resources or all of the above to get involved. Not everyone has that luxury and I get that. I believe progress is being made, ultimately time will tell. This is your typical marathon not sprint situation but I honestly believe we're starting to gain traction and getting the right people's attention. It might prove out I'm delusional but it might prove out I'm right. I'll take that chance.

Either way, I'd like to think we all have a vested interest and common thread that binds us together here as opposed to an array of issue breaking us apart. That's how I plan on looking at it regardless and will keep trying to cause substantive and positive change until I can't do it anymore. Too many good hard working people's livelihoods are at stake and I want my children and grandchildren to have the same enjoyment with this sport as I've had with my family and friends growing up.

My apologies to you and others as well, I should have handled all of this differently. I guess with all the issues within this fishery, commercial quotas, bag limits etc. gets me all wound up I let my emotions get the best of me and I ended up spouting off to the wrong people. It was uncalled for and again I am very sorry and hopefully there are no hard feelings.

[dakota560]

No hard feelings whatsoever, like we've all said there's a lot of frustration swirling around. Makes us all a bit crazy and on edge. Thanks for all the garbage you collect on your trips, something that shouldn't be lost in all this. FYI, think we have a common friend. Kevin who is one of the vampire gang at Hopatcong during the herring spawn. Out of the blue he mentioned your screen name the other day, had nothing to do with this thread just a complete coincidence. He loves nighttime walleye and hybrid fishing for sure. Either way as Dave said, keep posting. It's what makes NJF a fantastic and unique site. All the best......Tom.

[Rocky]

WOW guys I am impressed. So many times on the internet these days I read post of people who will argue just to argue and beat a dead horse to claim how right they are and how wrong the other person is.

The last few post above have been refreshing, thank you.

[hammer4reel]

While everyone is entitled to their opinions. guys need to be able to look at things with an open mind.

Few examples are is their less fish or are fish migrating different ways etc.
Doesn't matter which it is, NMFS is saying their are less fish overall.
The regulations they are using are hurting the fishery for ALL of us.

guys bust my balls about the 2 marches on Washington not getting anything done, that they were a waste of time WELL if more guys who thought they were a waste of time ACTUALLY showed up there MAYBE those marches would have been more effective.

Everyday the in house bickering goes on between all the fishing groups its just another day towards our Government selling the fishing rights to groups willing to line their pockets.
and while many think that's the local based commercial guys its NOT,
they would prefer to sell those fish we all want to chase as Perks to other countries. Lining their pockets ten fold.

EVERY fishery except possibly sea bass and ling are being hurt by current regulations and unless groups get a little more backing its not going to change.

.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Group Hug :) :)

Glad people are so passionate about this subject but passion can be a double edge sword as we’ve just seen here. The more time and energy you have invested in this fight, the more personal it gets and that’s bound to trigger emotions.

Lets remember we’re all on the same team here and rather then get tangled up with the small differences we may have, remember we share a common goal and that’s to get this fishery and the management of it back on track.

As I see it there are 2 ways to fight the system that got us to where we are today, politically and scientifically. The more united we stand the better chance we have to affect changes in each area.

[AndyS]

Marine Fisheries Council
Meets at the Galloway Twp. Branch of the Atlantic Co. Library, 306 East Jimmie Leeds Rd., Galloway, NJ 08205, at 5:00 p.m. unless noted otherwise. Please call 609-292-7794 to confirm date and time of meeting.
The Marine Fisheries Council meets bi-monthly, usually on the first or second Thursday of the month. The two sections of the NJ Shell Fisheries Council (Delaware Bay and Atlantic Coast) meet monthly. The DBSC usually meets on the first Tuesday of the month. The ACSC usually meets on the third Monday of the month. The public is welcome to attend these meetings.

https://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/mcnclmtg.htm#marine

[Gerry Zagorski]

Striped bass meetings should be coming up soon as well... Looks like all states are going to share in the pain since they are reported to be overfished.. A large part of this issue is to due to assumed mortality rates which is assumed to be 9%. That combined with the MRIP assumptions of how many are caught, even if you catch and release some of these fish will count against us.

Should be another interesting battle and I assume slot fish, closed seasons, lower bag limits will all likely be on the table and the reason the NJDEP sent the surveys which many of you got. Will be following this here as well.